This is the main V-Flyer Forum for general discussion of everything related to flying with Virgin-branded travel companies.
#252658 by mike-smashing
06 Jan 2008, 15:10
(I'm not entirely sure if this is the right thing to do, breaking off another thread, but it seems we've got two discussions evolving in the strike thread - the strike itself, and how we got there in terms of mistakes that appear to have been made by management along the way... So, I've peeled off a new thread. Mods, feel free to lock/kill/merge as necessary.)

The fact that the first strike in the history of VS is only days away must be acting as a wake up call to the management. Hopefully, the right message is received (morale is poor, things are bad), not the wrong one (scumbag militant staff making my life hard).

The wakeup call should send the message that VS haven't coped particularly well with scaling from the 'smaller, friendlier' VS of 1998 to the larger VS of 2008.

When the airline was smaller, it would have been much easier for decision makers to remain in contact with what was going on at ground level. As a business grows, the classical thing for management to do is to move behind an abstraction layer of reporting and statistics, just so the information becomes manageable.

However, a lot of detail and sentiment can become buried behind the statistics - 'up and to the right is good, right?'.

There's probably a whole bunch of decisions taken along the way, that with the benefit of hindsight, with a stronger connection to the issue and with more detailed information, VS management might have done differently.

To avoid this 'ivory tower syndrome', VS management need to go and regularly 'dip themselves' into the operational functions of their business, to see first hand what the problems are, and bring these back to the rest of the management team so decisions can be made.

As Pete and Richard rightly point out, many of the managers in VS have worked their way through the airline industry, and are aviation professionals through and through. But that doesn't absolve them from a requirement to keep themselves intimate with how business is going at ground level.

Longer term, having cut loose the junk from this period of unrest, who's going to point out the errors made in a self-effacing, non-judgmental and honest manner, and light the way back to what VS wants and needs to be?

I don't believe it can be a classical management consultant, nor can they be from within the existing Virgin culture - they will come with baggage (if you'll excuse the pun).

It does need to be someone who has a passion for what Virgin Atlantic aim to deliver each day, and I think they need to be somehow vested in the success of the business.

While I don't think it will solve all of VS' problems, I think a Customers' Council/Forum (as an advisory group) plays a part of this role, as they meet the above criteria pretty well.

A panel like this acts as a sounding board, a bell-weather or temperature gauge of current performance, and provide the organisation with a 'conscience', something which is often lacking in the modern corporate body.

When a panel like this meets, it meets with a cross-section of the senior management team, experts from the various disciplines within the business (specifically ones which are up for discussion on that meeting's agenda), and some front-line staff reps.

VS management should seriously be considering forming such a group from among a cross-section of VS regular passengers, and I don't just mean FC Aus, or GBTOPs (or whatever they are called). You need a good cross-section of VS customers, including people who fly down the back to MCO to see 'the mouse' a couple of times a year, as well as those who are jetting off in UC every few weeks.

Then we might not have had to face what we've perceived as errors in service delivery, such as 'scrooge packs', 'plastic terror' W seating, cut-back naff quality J menus, dirty planes, unrecognisable Y food, flights that run out of drinks, crappy outsourced customer service, etc.

Mike
#430855 by RichardMannion
06 Jan 2008, 15:23
Interesting post Mike, and I do think the customer council thing is a valid proposition. I know for sure I'd want to sit on it [;)]. There is a need for the right kind of people though, people who can be constructive and understand the bigger picture.

In regards to the 'back to floor' aspect by senior management, I know the exercise has been done in the past by certain individuals. I'm always a little wary of the exercise those, I kind of liken it to OFSTED inspections where it's an annouced visit and it's a charade. Best way for them to be conducted is for the director/manager to turn up unannocued and get stuck in.

For the interim, I know of several key people at VS that read what is posted by customers here on V-Flyer. It's a very useful barometer for them.

I know BA have focus groups, that could be an alternative.

Thanks,
Richard
#430859 by Darren Wheeler
06 Jan 2008, 15:44
We have a thing called Voice of the Customer. It involves our big corporates being invited in to talk to key managers about issues they have had. The 'Joe Public' also get invited to group meetings and get surveys from an external company about there experiences.

Knowing you business is not the same as knowing your customers and while customer feedback via any source (letters, emails, here etc.) should always be encouraged and more importantly, read by the right people, nothing really beats mystery shopper type tests. These can be either by outside companies or internal/external volunteers (risk of recognition etc.) and allow the shopper to give an in-depth assessment without the distractions of what the trip is really about, holiday or business.
#430864 by mike-smashing
06 Jan 2008, 16:04
Originally posted by RichardMannion
Interesting post Mike, and I do think the customer council thing is a valid proposition. I know for sure I'd want to sit on it [;)]. There is a need for the right kind of people though, people who can be constructive and understand the bigger picture.


Yep. I sit on one for a tech company in Silicon Valley. It's recently been used for exactly the reason I'm suggesting it will be good for VS, as the management were getting a bit up themselves with crazy stuff that just aggreived the customer base. 'Sniffing their own exhaust fumes', so to speak.

In regards to the 'back to floor' aspect by senior management, I know the exercise has been done in the past by certain individuals. I'm always a little wary of the exercise those, I kind of liken it to OFSTED inspections where it's an annouced visit and it's a charade.


'The Queen must think the world smells like paint', is the analogy I'd use. However, even The Queen has a way of dealing with that - her staff who sort her correspondance each day pull out a selection of letters for HM to read personally, as well as providing her with a summary of her daily postbag.

Maybe this tactic needs to be done by VS? Customer Services specifcally pull good examples of letters on particularly thorny or regularly occurring issues, and they go forward to the SMT for review?

Best way for them to be conducted is for the director/manager to turn up unannocued and get stuck in.


Totally agree. This tactic is one regularly used by Michael O'Leary at Ryanair.

For the interim, I know of several key people at VS that read what is posted by customers here on V-Flyer. It's a very useful barometer for them.


Well, they know where to find me... ;).

Seriously, we had someone at the late, lamented MaxJet track a customer down from their forum posts here on V-Flyer and respond to their questions. That's the attitude VS need to collectively show they have! Hiding behind their customer service department, they send a message of isolation and arrogance, especially as it's generally not the case.

Mike
#430866 by easygoingeezer
06 Jan 2008, 16:14
I am not sure the present strike or possible strike should be awarded the title of 'management wake up call' it could be equally said that management is giveing a 'wake up call' to staff that want what someone else is getting to go and join them because VA can't afford it and also a wake up call to prehistoric unions peddling and encourageing an outdated them and us culture that this company will not be bullied or threatened with destruction by its own employees.


However the lowering of standards of food, amenity packs, dirty broken suites, callcentres that invariably can't answer nor comprehend a question or query, these wern't mistakes, they were deliberate, the management wern't in 'error', mistakes and errors we can be charitable with because they are usually accidental. The people that made these decisions were quite 'awake'.

I personally think the pay dispute is an entirely seperate issue and doesn't deserve to be given credit or credence by attributing customers views on the overall product, clearly some of the crew would have us eat and drink nothing if it meant the money went in their own pockets judging by a lot of their remarks.
#430868 by Darren Wheeler
06 Jan 2008, 16:36
Originally posted by easygoingeezer
callcentres that invariably can't answer nor comprehend a question or query,


The trend is now for call centers being brought back to UK/Ireland as customers are so hostile to calling 'Mumbai' and several high profile cases of personal banking details being sold (everyone knows it's the governments job to do that...) Also, the long term cost savings are actually higher due to staff turnover being much greater, most are college graduates filling in.

It's also important to remember that there are some TR's that are full of nothing but praise for the CC so it's not an endemic issue thoughout the airline. The problem is that we remember the bad more than the good. Back in my days of teaching customer care skills I use to emphasise the following:

Good experience - we'll tell 2 or 3 people about it.
Bad experience - we'll tell 25 people about it.

And in these days of internet forums etc. the figure for bad is probably much higher. Hell, some even set up websites to vent their spleen to the world.
#430873 by mike-smashing
06 Jan 2008, 17:17
Originally posted by easygoingeezer
However the lowering of standards of food, amenity packs, dirty broken suites, callcentres that invariably can't answer nor comprehend a question or query, these wern't mistakes, they were deliberate, the management wern't in 'error', mistakes and errors we can be charitable with because they are usually accidental. The people that made these decisions were quite 'awake'.


You'll note that I qualified the 'mistakes' with the word 'percieved'.

I'm sure that these decisions were made by someone wide awake who thought they could 'get away with it'.

Unfortunately, the management has come across big-headed and aloof as a result. 'We've won industry award X, we must rock', tends to make one think they can walk on water, I'm certain!

The dispute we see today is just a manifestation of the malaise that has been created as a result of these 'awake' but myopic decisions. Greed begats greed.

Mike
#430874 by Decker
06 Jan 2008, 17:25
Originally posted by Darren Wheeler
We have a thing called Voice of the Customer.


Voice of the Beehive have an album called 'Let it Bee'... sorry sorry, I'll get my coat. Don't know what came over me.
#430884 by miopyk
06 Jan 2008, 18:54
Originally posted by RichardMannion


For the interim, I know of several key people at VS that read what is posted by customers here on V-Flyer. It's a very useful barometer for them.


If that's the case then as far as I can tell they haven't done anything to improve the situation. I had contact with VS customer services about a year ago and it was rubbish. I waited weeks for responses to emails and in the end a simple issue took more than 2 months to resolve which was very frustrating.

I'm now in contact with them again and I've been waiting seven weeks for a response to my initial letter despite chasing them twice, once by phone and once by email. I'd be more than happy for a senior VS manager to contact me and explain how that represents progress.

As I said previously, good product let down by inconsistent execution and poor support.

Oh and by the way that was my 250th post and I've just paid my subscription to a fantastic forum. Keep the good work up guys.

Miopyk[8D][:D]
#430886 by JAT74L
06 Jan 2008, 20:18
Originally posted by RichardMannion


I know for sure I'd want to sit on it [;)]. There is a need for the right kind of people though,



Isn't that the ultimate contradiction in terms. . . ? [;)] [}:)]

John
#430887 by RichardMannion
06 Jan 2008, 20:40
Originally posted by JAT74L
Originally posted by RichardMannion


I know for sure I'd want to sit on it [;)]. There is a need for the right kind of people though,



Isn't that the ultimate contradiction in terms. . . ? [;)] [}:)]

John



In what way John? [:?]
#430889 by JAT74L
06 Jan 2008, 21:19
You know the airline inside out, back to front and probably know down to the last grain of rice what they 'should' be doing. My thinking is that a pax forum such as the one mooted should be represented by regular 'normal' pax who DON'T want to see the 'bigger picture' but give input based on how they FEEL every time they fly with VS.

Surely VS (and the members of this site) have already bled you dry of your expert knowledge re flying Virgin Atlantic!!?

John
#430894 by Darren Wheeler
06 Jan 2008, 22:09
Every pax, no matter how much they fly can always provide feedback.

OK, Their Graces may fly a lot more that me or thee but every trip is different and if they see the same issue cropping up each time, then VS need to acknowledge they have a problem. The same for any really frequent flyer.

Just as important is the once-a-year pax as these are the ones who should be nurtured and kept coming back. One bad experience can send then scurrying to BA, United, SQ etc etc. never to come back as that bad memory will always be remembered long after the good ones.
#430895 by mitchja
06 Jan 2008, 22:25
but every trip is different and if they see the same issue cropping up each time, then VS need to acknowledge they have a problem. The same for any really frequent flyer.


There in lies the problem with VS though - consistancy. On the whole, you dont see the same problem every time.

Going back to John's point - you would need a broad range of flyers to make something like this work. Knowledge is power but can also be a burden at times. As V-Flyers, we know the VS product inside out and know exactly what we should be getting every flight. This does keep VS on their toes but you also need people to step back at look at the whole picture.

For example - several people including myself have made comments about the PE snack service been cheap looking compared to the rest of the service with the paper cups etc. Now, it only dawned on me after me last flight but are VS trying to make this service a 'relaxed coffee bar take out' type service [:?] I might be wrong but I can now sort of see where they are coming from.

Regards
#430897 by Scrooge
06 Jan 2008, 22:41
Warning, this started off as a two sentence reply and kind of got rambling, please feel free to skip right over it as Decker is bound to have a heart attack when he reads it.

A number of large corporations suffer from the 'heads in the sand' sickness.

I work for one (thankfully that is changing) and I think VS is one.

I have to agree and I am sure most on here would that VS has room for improvement.

Yes we can talk about a 38 inch seat pitch in Y, but the realities of the airline world now days is that that can't be done, however a lot of what made VS great was the 'soft' product.

On my last few flights I have found some very surprising things out.

Having flown in all 3 cabins I can state this...

The amenity pack in Y is better than the one found in J

Now just from a basic business point of view I have to sit here and ask...How in the f**k can that be.

The food in PE is better then the food in J...Again..how in the f**k is that allowed to happen.

The aircraft in all cabins are, well in most cases not dirty, but far from clean, again this shouldn't happen.

I am sorry, but my faith in VS management is not that great, however whilst the management needs a wake up call the same can be said for certain members of the CC.

I have worked at all levels for the company I work for, last year I did our yearly budget, 4 months later after state elections a law went into effect that meant our budget was blown apart.

We gathered all the employees and explained the situation to them and that whilst we had no intentions of laying off people there were certain 'soft' benefits that would not be happening. I think the fact that we talked to our employee's helped the situation, plus the fact that we (as management)suffered the same 'losses' as the front line employee's.

In the modern world the people that run companies cannot afford to sit in the ivory towers and think that people will not communicate with each other, gone are the days of the coffee break being the main form of communications, now it's text messaging, web forums and other internet media.

From the start both VS and the union have failed to communicate the facts clearly, in many ways the union has done their members an injustice, but also the members have done themselves one as well.

Do they think for a minute that VS losing money means that SRB and the rest of the management team won't be paid ? or for that matter the union bosses, will they suddenly stop accepting pay checks ? Idon't think so in either case.

Anyways, just my thoughts on VS in general and the current situation.
#430900 by VS075
06 Jan 2008, 23:19
Originally posted by Darren Wheeler
Every pax, no matter how much they fly can always provide feedback.

OK, Their Graces may fly a lot more that me or thee but every trip is different and if they see the same issue cropping up each time, then VS need to acknowledge they have a problem. The same for any really frequent flyer.

Just as important is the once-a-year pax as these are the ones who should be nurtured and kept coming back. One bad experience can send then scurrying to BA, United, SQ etc etc. never to come back as that bad memory will always be remembered long after the good ones.


I agree with all your views there.

What I will add to this is that every company in every industry works hard to build up a good reputation for their customers, but it only takes one bad experience to blow this reputation into pieces and in some cases, it is irreparable.
#430922 by sickbag
07 Jan 2008, 01:45
I've been flying exclusively with virgin to the states for last 14/15 years (at least once a year). The first 8-10 years VS were exceptional. At this time I recommended them to family/friends etc. Of those that were travelling to the states for the 1st time , they booked with VS on my families recommendations.

The last 5 years have been very inconsistent. I've just returned from the states after spending christmas and new year in LA. I've used up all my miles, so no financial benefit to use VS again. We promised ourselves that we would try BA after this last trip.

Ironically this last trip outbound and inbound were excellent. But I think we were just lucky. Therefore will try BA next christmas.

Side note; last time I complained to VS customer service. Hadnt heard anything back for 1 month. So I phoned them and was told by the rep that they were extremely busy with a lot of complaints and to wait a couple of more weeks for a response!
#430924 by catsilversword
07 Jan 2008, 07:04
Originally posted by RichardMannion
Interesting post Mike, and I do think the customer council thing is a valid proposition. I know for sure I'd want to sit on it [;)]. There is a need for the right kind of people though, people who can be constructive and understand the bigger picture.

In regards to the 'back to floor' aspect by senior management, I know the exercise has been done in the past by certain individuals. I'm always a little wary of the exercise those, I kind of liken it to OFSTED inspections where it's an annouced visit and it's a charade. Best way for them to be conducted is for the director/manager to turn up unannocued and get stuck in.

For the interim, I know of several key people at VS that read what is posted by customers here on V-Flyer. It's a very useful barometer for them.

I know BA have focus groups, that could be an alternative.

Thanks,
Richard



My better half used to work in manufacturing as a manager and regularly did a lot of what he called MBWA - management by wandering about - he found it the best and only real way of staying totally in touch with the issues - both work and personal - that were going on. I know this is totally different to the contrived OFSTED type thing. I also realise it's not always possible with all organisations - but the principle is the same and it does at least let people think you care and have some idea of what's going on as things happen. Staff can feel that managers live in ivory towers (I wouldn't deny many of them do!)

Also - the point made easlier about Maxjet and their customer services. I only flew with them once, but did contact them by phone and email a couple of times. My call was answered quickly and I wasn't passed to endless diferent people for a reply. My email was answered equally quickly and efficiently - much to my surprise. Our flight home had a delay and this was followed, a couple of days later, by an unsolicted email of apology - never had that from any other airline. If a small airline like that can manage it, then surely there's no excuse for a large concern? I don't have any problem with customer being outsourced to India (or anywhere else) per se, what I DO have a problem with is being passed in circles, the fact that staff are clearly reading from a script, that they speak English but have no grip of issues particular to their customers....
#431000 by miopyk
07 Jan 2008, 20:32
It's good news that the strike has been called off but I think the biggest gain for VS is that this whole exercise has exposed some serious issues across the organisation which they now have the opportunity to put right for the benefit of customers, staff and their business.

I bow of course to other forum members who have a lot more knowledge of the airline business than I do so perhaps my expectations are unrealistic but in the end most successful businesses have achieved a good balance across product, service and backup whatever industry they're in. VS in my opinion have lost that balance.

I travel 3-4 times a year for leisure and the money I spend comes out of my own pocket. Because of this i am always looking for the best combination of value, reliability, service and support whether that be a flight, hotel or car rental. When something goes wrong, as it always does from time to time, the best companies will do everything they can to sort the issue out to the satisfaction of their customers. The worst will do everything they can to avoid sorting the issue out because they mistakingly believe that costs time and money.

If I have a good experience I tend to be loyal to that brand because I trust what I know. If I have a bad experience it isn't the end of the world if the problem is sorted out but if not this can make the problem a lot worse that it should be. At best this will dent my trust but doesn't mean I'll go elsewhere, at worst I'll try a competitor and will perhaps be lost forever.

In my view this makes me a pretty average consumer. I don't have outlandish expectations but I do expect to get what I've paid for and am quite happy to point out when I do or don't get it.

And this is where I think VS has lost the plot. The product is pretty good and whatever people may think they still have some good advantages over the competition despite the obvious cost cutting exercises. However in their quest to grow and become more successful they don't appear to have invested in the support/service side of the business and this is reflected in many of the comments made by members on this forum.

So VS Senior Managers if you really do read these comments I think you should see the title of this thread as a serious statement. If your most loyal customers are telling you about these issues you really should be listening because I'm guessing like most people on here we'd rather fly with you but loyalties can and do change which for me would be really dissapointing.

Miopyk[8D]
#431021 by easygoingeezer
07 Jan 2008, 22:04
Miopyk, what an outstanding post you made.[^][oo]
#431026 by RJD
07 Jan 2008, 22:20
Any company wanting to grow and continue to be successful needs to have upper management who are involved in their business and lead by example - when the person who heads up a large and extremely critical area of the company is seen surveying her domain just twice in one year, something is seriously wrong. More hands-on and less high-level management is needed.
Virgin Atlantic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 150 guests

Itinerary Calendar