Virgin Atlantic - Define Loyalty

[RichardMannion]

Me and the boy Neil have been have been chatting about this and it's an interesting question/statement.

Define Loyalty (with the context of choosing VS).

So few scenarios:
a) Need to fly somewhere and VS is 100 each more than BA (or another carrier), who do you choose and why? What would be the break point in price difference?

b) VS is the same price as another carrier, but the flight earns no miles (or a reduced level), who do you choose and why?

c) VS is same price as another carrier, but other carrier has a promo running where you earn bonus miles, or a free companion, or a free upgrade etc; who do you choose and why?

I understand that class of service, and your status with VS (or the other airline) may be a factor.

Expecting some interesting results, and I'm thinking the current climate may be having an impact on the answers compared to the past.

Thanks,
Richard

[Darren Wheeler]

a) For £100 more I'd still pick VS for J as the CH at both ends, the seat and the bar more than make up for it. Anything more than £200 and I would be seriously reconsidering.

b) If I had status with both, the one which gave miles towards a reward flight would win easily. With no status, same answer as a)

c) For a free upgrade I'd go with the other carrier in a nanosecond. Miles would depend on status again and being single at the moment, the companion ticket is somewhat worthless.

Some of my choices may seem mercenary but I want the best bang for my buck. In Y it would always be the cheapest because 9 hours in Y will be, IMHO, hell regardless of carrier. For W and J, the choice becomes much harder but for W, VS would probably win as it is a better product than WT+.

My loyalty at the moment is really forced loyalty, with VS being the only direct scheduled carrier to Orlando from the north. I would love to try BA but of course this needs a flight to LGW.

If we want NY, then BA fly from MAN ans VS don't, so would fly with them probably. We have been flying UC.

If the option was there from where I live then I would fly with whoever is cheaper, though I have to say the MAN VS CC have been great.(UC)

I think if BA were to fly direct to Orlando from MAN then they would do very well indeed.

[Neil]

It's a really good question, and a tough one to answer as we discussed.

I have to say that in general I think loyalty is very hard to give with the current economic climate, but due to our personal circumstances we still choose to fly VS as first choice, mainly because we don't fly often enough to be rewarded with our 'loyalty' from multiple airlines and in the long run being loyal to VS should save us lots of money (plus I still like what VS offer)

If however scenario 'c' came up then we would probably be swayed, at the end of the day loyalty will only get you so far, it would become stupidity if you are turning down 'free' extras for exactly the same price.

Neil

quote:Originally posted by maz
If we want NY, then BA fly from MAN ans VS don't, so would fly with them probably. We have been flying UC.



OT

You know BA don't fly MAN-JFK anymore?
So you would need to go via LHR which opens up VS to you again.


Back OT

Anyway, for me all my answers based on flying UC or business as a leisure traveller.

a) Depends on who the other carrier is as I have *A gold status (Only VS Silver). If it were LHR-LAX and NZ were the other option, I'd go with them at £100 less. I can live without the clubhouse in one direction. Any other carrier well, it depends who it is!

b) As A), depends on the other carrier, but it's likely if I don't earn miles with VS I won't fly with them unless the deal is very very very very (repeat to fade) good.

c) The other carrier has a better deal so, unless it's someone like Air India it's a no brainer and I go with the other carrier.

The bottom line is it simply depends on the 'other carrier' in each instance. It's always been the case for me TBH as I'm not a VS lemming [:p]

[Scrooge]

same answer as Darren

It's interesting to see the VS apologists have declined of late, with only the very few that always try and defend anything VS do. There seems to be fewer distinct reasons to choose VS over another carrier nowadays. Other carriers loyalty cards seem to be better value making Virgin seem even less competitive. I've now decided to collect miles on another airlines card and downgrade the VS black card in July unless a good reason comes up not to.

Currently VS err on our business, as near to getting our needed miles for a certain trip,
However, last 12mths have proved an eye opener.
1. We take mostly flights in PE, via LHR although the Man B&S flights we've taken, in Y & PE very poor- CC included, and hold no loyalty- Update the aircraft & they'll have our PE business in most instances. Still believe this is badly advertised to poor unsuspecting souls out of MAN. However the PE fleet out of LHR very good, and had nothing but good experiences in 08, even with CC.

2. We'll travel Upper rarely and likely only through incentives, through mileage accrual etc- again very switchable. Offer the right incentives and ability to use incentives, we'll stay.

3. LGW major issue as best trnfr for us is from LBA to LHR on BMI.

Useable incentives, Consistent good flights with chatty, response CC, IFE that works and palatable food - I'm back everytime.

Oooo good question.

Brand loyalty is one of those unknowns that if you succeed has the potential to make you a lot more profit than the products could other wise generate. The trick really is to be seen and acknowledged as the best in your particular field of endeavour and if you can add a touch of exclusivity more the better.

Good examples of this are Porsche; the most profitable per unit mass production car manufacturer, Rolex; the brand sells itself and Mercedes Benz; the executive car.

But the consumer is a fickle beast that must have his ego massaged regularly with new innovations and treats which will keep him coming back for more and woe betide any company that thinks it can rest on it's laurels without keeping it's customers happy in the longer term.

During the late 80's Porsche sat back and watched to money roll in with no real product development and then in the early 90s it all came crashing down. Had it not been for the Boxster they would have gone bust. Lesson learnt they now make a bundle, own VW and are very good at keeping their customers happy.

Rolex made a mint during the 80s as everyone wanted one, then the YUPPY image started to have a negative impact, so they scaled back production and today if you want certain models of Yacht-master or Submariner there is a waiting list and they sell second hand for more than retail.

Mercedes Benz used to built to the engineers spec and as a result they were bomb proof. Getting one was a 6-9 month wait and they held their money like nothing else on earth. Then in the early 90s the bean counters moved in and the cars were built to a cost, the quality suffered as did customers confidence. All of a sudden a Benz was no longer the aspiration it once was.

After a much publicised admission 3/4 years ago that they had got it wrong they're now back to making some pretty decent cars that people want and have confidence in, although I doubt they will ever recapture the kudos they had in the 60s and 70s.

So what does all this mean? Ultimately, unless you invest in innovation and keep your customers surprised and delighted they will soon get board and move on to the next bright young thing that attracts them and their money. Reinvention is the mother of success, look at Madonna, David Bowie, Marks & Spencer, BA, Next etc.

Why do I use Virgin? Because I perceive them to be better than the competition. And that's important because I don't use the competition, all my trips to the States over the last 7 years have been with VS. So my loyalty has been based on a theoretical perception rather than fact. So what happens if I use BA to go to New York next month and they're better.

Well then that would make me a fickle beast who's ego had been massaged and make BA the next bright young thing that came along and took me and my money away from VS.

Miopyk[8D]

[Scrooge]

very well said

quote:Originally posted by northernhenry
3. LGW major issue as transfers from north no existent.


Probably not really noticed on here as most of the members seem to be based around Heathrow and Gatwick area, but in the last 6-9 months the connections problems(frequency, baggage allowance) are getting extremely difficult to justify continuing to use VS.

The 20kg allowance on BA's shuttles is no use after you have flown Upper to the USA (3x32kg or 4x32kg with Gold - although has to be said VS max baggage allowance is pretty extreme), the connections upto EDI from LGW that fit in with arriving VS flights (assuming they are anywhere near on time !) are nothing short of abismal and why should I pay the same as a flight from lgw but travel fom man and not receive the same benefits (ie Clubhouse). We will not even begin to discuss the difference in service between lgw and lhr.

Interesting times ahead.

David

(wonder if anyone reading this from VS is disturbed about the 3 big threads concerning service and loyalty issues from what must be their biggest fan base[:?])

[mitchja]

a) Before December 1st, I would have said VS, but with the recent Flying Club reductions in earnings on all discounted fares I am now seriously starting to re-access my loyalty to VS. Before December 1st, I was prepared to give VS the benefit of the doubt as their FF program was better than the competition. Now it's no different than most other carriers. VS are now and have been for some time, left behind when it comes to on-board services. Their out-of-date IFE systems on most of their A/C together with the lack-luster service they offer in economy really is now making me re-access my loyalty.

b) As above.

c) As above.

Don't even get me started on VS's outrageous credit card fees which no-one at VS will explain or even try to justify.

Regards

[Nottingham Nick]

quote:Originally posted by David

...wonder if anyone reading this from VS is disturbed about the 3 big threads concerning service and loyalty issues from what must be their biggest fan base[:?])


People will be switching to http://www.BA-Flyer.com soon. [;)][:D]

quote:Originally posted by daywalker
[quote]Originally posted by maz
If we want NY, then BA fly from MAN ans VS don't, so would fly with them probably. We have been flying UC.



OT

You know BA don't fly MAN-JFK anymore?
So you would need to go via LHR which opens up VS to you again.





I didn't know as I hadn't looked recently. That would mean I would go with whoever is cheaper. Though, having said that I am collecting VS miles(because of the 'forced loyalty') in the hope I may be able to use them somehow!!!

quote:Originally posted by Nottingham Nick
[quote]Originally posted by David

...wonder if anyone reading this from VS is disturbed about the 3 big threads concerning service and loyalty issues from what must be their biggest fan base[:?])


People will be switching to http://www.BA-Flyer.com soon. [;)][:D]


[|:)] I had to try, didn't I [oo]

[honey lamb]

My perspective is somewhat different to most people's given that I am living in Ireland and I have to either use DUB or SNN if I want to fly longhaul or else go via the UK. EI are now flying to most of VS's North American routes but the pricing is horrendous. Their Business Class fare is more than Û1,000 dearer than a VS Z fare even when factoring in flights to LHR. In addition, while I am very familiar with both DUB and LHR, I much prefer LHR with all its faults and failings. Therefore VS v EI is a no-brainer.

What about VS v BA or another ex-LHR carrier? I have to admit that at this stage my loyalty is beginning to waver. I have been fortunate that at any stage I have wanted to travel VS has come out cheaper but I think that if I find similar prices I may well be tempted to give the opposition a whirl based on some of the TRs over here.

[RichardMannion]

Just got me thinking - loyalty; so if you have 200 or more BA shares you get 10% off all fares (inc sales), why doesn't VS do something like that for Au customers? Maybe say 5% for Ag customers?

Obviously you'd have to book direct, so the CpS to Vs is reduced anyway.

[buns]

For the time being, VS retains my loyalty predominantly because of the comparison between PE and WT+.

Notwithstanding the failure to upgrade the LGW fleet, the PE Cabin and service still is a cut above WT+. Coupled with Au status, the access to the Clubhouse is a benefit that could not be matched.

On the downside, redeeming miles on the LGW - MCO route is near nigh impossible and the continuing frustrations of Mrs B to be able to redeem her miles is becoming something of a sore point.

My last few flights with VS, whilst nothing special, have not turned me away - although i have to admit that the 'spark' has not been there[n]

I could be enticed back to BA if there is a good fare difference

buns

Thanks Richard and Neil for an interesting debate to kick off the New Year.

We're talking about loyalty and brand ... brands lure us in by appealing to some subjective element that is difficult to price. Like it makes us look good, stylish, young, hip, etc. This surely is what VS is trying to do and where it meets an appreciative audience such as the V-Flyer crowd it works. Loyalty follows. The brand then is built on some subjectives but has to operate on the objective level too - so we have wider seats, longer suites, IFE etc.

Then loyalty is tested when every brand has it's patchy periods. I think VS is having one now, variable service, variable in flight amenities, crotchety cabin crew, reduced miles, poor partner benefits, FSMs who swing between brilliant and invisible ... etc.

We then start to question whether brand loyalty is worth an extra £100 or £200, whether the miles are worth excusing the variations and flaws for ...

Anyway, back to the questions:
a) always VS is the fare is slightly different
b) does not apply or never has so I don't know
c) depends on the promo - the BA one was a crowd pleaser and I haven't seen VS do anything similar for a long time

All of course, depend on say whether the flight qualifies for a higher tier of frequent flyer benefit. Whether someone else is paying and therefore no choice ...

Hmmm

[:?]