Thoughts about Premium Economy

Well, more specifically, the gap between PE and UCS.

When VS first introduced PE (as "Mid-Class"), it was pretty much akin to the run-of-the-mill Business class seats of the day, but with a slightly enhanced economy onboard service.

At the time, Upper Class used seats that would be similar to First Class on most other airlines.

Remember, this totally pre-dates flat beds, or J2000-type seats, anywhere.

UCS has brought Upper into the same level (and sometimes better) than most other airlines' First Class seat.

While moving Premium Economy to a full-blown Business class seat as we know it today could be a little unrealistic, I think the new PE seats are a retrograde step from the older seats, almost like PE has completely stood still, maybe even moved slightly backward.

So, is there space to move on the PE service instead - i.e. a better food service - maybe something that looks a bit like a BA Club Europe meal in terms of presentation?

Apart from the extra space, I still can't help feeling that PE is a bit of a stagnant product, and if leather seats are the only improvement to be made in PE, I'm not convinced!

Cheers,
Mike

Mike I couldn't agree with you more, and i think a lot of other people think the same. Considering the amount of money one can spend for a fully flexible PE fare, i don't think you get enough, but what can we do apart from wait for VS to make some improvements.

Regards

[HighFlyer]

Id love to see this issue addressed with the 'revamp' of PE later in the year. VS need to do more than just change the seat covers, with so many other airlines now offering a 'PE' product they need to stay ahead - but what to do??

I always thought that the meal service could be enhanced too. Maybe take away the meal trolleys? with such a small cabin the FAs could easily ask the pax what they wanted out of the 3 meal choices and bring them out by hand, that wouldnt really create too much extra work (has to be done for special meals anyway) and i think it would give a better impression of a higher level of service.

Id like to see the PE meals slightly upgraded from economy meals, but i doubt it would happen, it would probably be too costly.

Similarly, it would be nice to have a better amenity kit, i dont bother opening the PE one, nothing worth having in there to me (but again, because of the cost element i doubt it would happen)

[preiffer]

Better hand-baggage allocation would be a nice improvement, surely...?

Originally posted by preiffer
Better hand-baggage allocation would be a nice improvement, surely...?

Probably limited by the upper deck bin space on the 744. We can't have our cake and eat it

Mike

[preiffer]

Cakes on boarding, excellent idea [y][i]

Just wondering though, while it's fresh in my mind - on this morning's flight from SFO, on waking, we were all given a warm towel to help wake us up. (I usually find it works.) I didn't notice them handing them out in PE, unless I missed it?

If it's missing, it might be a nice refresher for waking up from overnight flights? - What's the cost for a disposable ([?]) towel for each PE passenger, really?

[Nottingham Nick]

Interesting debate... looking at it from a different angle though.. VS don't seem to be having any problem selling the PE seats, and there doesn't appear to be a shortage of pax wanting to pay the extra to upgrade into them.

Using the 'market forces' argument.. 'if it ain't broke, why spend many millions of pounds fixing it?'

However, if they are going to 'tweak' the product to stop it stagnating, then a premium meal / drinks service may be the first step.

Nick

[honey lamb]

on this morning's flight from SFO, on waking, we were all given a warm towel to help wake us up.

Actually that's one thing that didn't happen on my recent flight and I really missed it. I would have loved to have had a hot towel

[HighFlyer]

Another vote for hot towels!!

I can get them in my local Indian so sure would be nice to have them after a nights kip onboard!

Ive never had a hot towel on VS - looking forward to my next few UCS flights to see if that changes

It's an enhanced economy cabin, not half of UC.

I feel sorry for some pax - namely American businessmen who are sold this cabin as business class - as it's the middle class of travel on VS their travel agents often assume it is business class and they expect it to come with lounge access, extra luggage allowances etc.

But i think it's good as it is - for holiday makers who want that bit extra.

Originally posted by Nottingham Nick
Interesting debate... looking at it from a different angle though.. VS don't seem to be having any problem selling the PE seats, and there doesn't appear to be a shortage of pax wanting to pay the extra to upgrade into them.

A full W cabin is currently assured by VS' (and others') criminally tight Y cabin seat pitch, which on VS also seems to vary by a few inches either way depending which seat you get!

I just travelled back from ATH today on Lufthansa (via FRA) on their A300-600. This is a nicely configured plane, with about 34" seat pitch, and sensibly designed seats meaning you can actually slide your legs under the seat in front, from a comfortable sitting position.

Now, that is the sort of comfort level that VS should be providing in Y. Your knees shouldn't touch the back of the seat in front by default.

Mike

[HighFlyer]

But i think it's good as it is - for holiday makers who want that bit extra.

And the business traveller who's company wont stump up for a J [:I]


I do agree that its more Economy than Business, but i do feel that with so many more airlines competing with the Premium cabins that VS need to do more to remain competitive.

BA have made a few modifications to their WT+ of late, plus they have double the hand baggage allowance of VS!! The gap is narrowing and VS do need to more to stay ahead!

Originally posted by HighFlyer
Ive never had a hot towel on VS - looking forward to my next few UCS flights to see if that changes

Both my recent UCS flights (to MCO - two weeks ago) have had two hot towel services, once soon after take off, and once before landing.

not flown PE so cant comment on that.

[Decker]

I'm always confused by these sort of comments. Until VS find that they can't sell seats in EC they have no real reason to improve the pitch. They have a finite amount of seats to sell and if they can sell them without adding extra value then why do it?

Originally posted by VS_Lover
It's an enhanced economy cabin, not half of UC.

My point, that you seem to be missing, is that it used to be "half" of other airlines' business class service - in terms of the seat type and seat pitch that you got - back when it was introduced.

The old seat VS PE cabin and the old Domestic C cabin on UA's now retired 767-200s (which used to be their International C cabin back in the mid 90's) are remarkably similar in seat pitch and seat type (apart from PTVs on the VS aircraft, of course!).

UA old 767 C Cabin (N602UA)

VS 744 W cabin (G-VTOP)

Note that some airlines are still flying with a PE-like seat as their C/J seat today, as well!

But, PE really could do with perking up! As there probably isn't that much movement that can be achieved seating wise, there should be room for tweaks on the in-flight service, such as the meal, hot towels, etc.

For those who aren't familiar BA's Club Europe hot meal isn't anything approaching a VS Upper meal, it's served on a single tray place setting, with the choice of main course heated in the oven and plated up by the galley operator. (I'm having trouble finding a good example to show you on airlinemeals.net.)

The key "nice" things about a BA Club Europe meal that would port well to VS' W cabin are: real tableware (flatware, silverware, glassware), nicer presentation (rather than something looking like a "tv dinner") and a better quality appetiser and desert.

I would be surprised if there isn't any room in VS profit margin on the PE seats (which must be enormous!) to offer something like this.

Mike

I would have to say that I still have a problem with the inconsistancy of service in PE. The last 2 times I have flown PE I have had less than the correct level of service.

1. Last year out of LGW we were told there was no champange loaded and offered orange juice for a pre takeoff drink.

2. In March out of LHR we were not given the Ben and Jerrys Ice cream and only offered the Y alternative, no explanation given, Ben and Jerrys being offered around UCS.

A friend of mine who has just returned from MCO, also missed out on the now supposedly standard Ben and Jerrys, on his outbound trip.

I have thought for a while that the PE service especially on the LGW/MAN services is a major profit stream for VS. They get loads of business in upgrades through VH and lots of business passengers who can't bear Y but cannot afford J. The current level of service in PE is really no different in cost then Y, The only difference is the seat pitch.

I am happy pay for this as I am tall, and really hate sitting in Y. That is my choice. But for the extra that I pay I would like to recieve the service that is advertised. I know that UCS is important to VS and I hope given the amount that they make from it, PE is too.

I suggest, and this is only speculation, that the regular inconsistancies in the PE service are not exactly accidental.

Maybe VS staff or Cabin crew would like to comment further?

Neil.

I think we should remember that it is a "MID CLASS" and not just an enhanced economy product. For some pax on holiday on chepo tickets it is the later, but for biz pax whose company won't pay for J, and who have to pay the very high full-W fares, it is a MID Class and should be half way twixt Y and UCS. For similiar fares to W, it is often possible to get proper J class (admittedly not UCS) on other, heavily discounted airlines. Also if VS enhanced PE they could expand the cabin size (at the expense of Y) selling more high revenue PE seats.
I believe the PE FA's (when there are any!!) are part of the Y team. If they were part of the UC team, it may improve the service. They need to get rid of the "E" word and it's connotations. If you spend £1.2-2k on a ticket and get slightly enhanced Y you feel cheated, I did at least. I no longer use PE (from being a heavy user 5 years ago). May use it on a heavily discounted VH ticket on a 744, otherwise will look for discounted J, pref on VS. However if it became a mini-biz class, there would be no contest.

[preiffer]

If I merely wanted the extra legroom, I'd just use United. Free access to E+ (36") is provided to all *G/S members. You get priority boarding through *A anyway, so not much missing except the IFE (which isn't THAT bad on UA).

Personally, because of that, I'd struggle to justify spending the money on Virgin unless the service/facilities were greatly improved over just a "bigger seat".

Originally posted by ColourPhil
Also if VS enhanced PE they could expand the cabin size (at the expense of Y) selling more high revenue PE seats.

This has always been my argument.
I grant you that at the moment PE is normally full - although on both out/return flights to MCO recently this was not the case. However if the idea is to maximise a/c revenue then ideally VS should be looking to expand PE and lower prices since currently the profit margin on PE is significantly higher than standard Y.

If they can do this successfully and attract more pax from Y into a larger PE then they will ultimately increase profits. Something that they will be doing to a limited extent when the larger PE section arrives on next years A340 deliveries.

Of course this is a slightly different than improving the service in PE but even here there are little touches (dedicated supervisor, magazine, better headphones/amenity kit, non Clubhouse lounge access, better meals? etc.) that can be done relatively inexpensively.

Phil (Buffy)

I am quite happy with my past PE experience, I feel I am paying for a bigger seat thats all really, if I want everything thing to be the dogs bo***x, I go upper.

At the end of the day most of us use miles to get to PE anyway.

I must stress however that I am a holiday traveller so am possibly more content with whats offered than a reg business traveller expects.

Whilst there are merits in the if it aint broke dont fix it arguement I feel that VS need to enhance the PE product given many scheduled and charter services now offer a equivelent/better products than Virgin.

The meal is one area where charter airlines have improved for their premium pax. VS should follow suit. There simply isnt enough differentiation from Y for my liking.

The only reason I fly PE (usually one way on a redeye) is to improve my chances of a J upgrade (as premium is often oversold)

I'm 5'4 so extra legroom in itself just doesnt cut it and as a AU holder I get UC checkin etc anyway..

Just my opinion of course!

[Bazz]

I too see the merit in Nick's and Decker's comments but I think VS need to be careful, do they try to enhance the product and keep their regular W pax happy or wait until the load factor starts to drop off by which time the rot will have set in?

In sales and marketing it is a well established fact that it is more cost effective to keep a current customer than gain a new one, let us hope VS listen to the comments about PE and do do something more that just a cosmetic change later this year.

I'V BEEN vs FF FLYER FOR A LONG TIME AND I LOVE VS BUT PE IS NOTHING SPECIAL I THINK ITS ALMOST THE SAME AS BA WORLD TRAVELLER PLUS AND IF I MUST SAY AFTER TRYING BA WORLD TRAVELLER PLUS A FEW YEAR AGO I'VE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THATS IYS THE SAME THING IF ANYTHING BA SEAT IN WTP ARE A LOT MORE COMFORTABLE.....

[Bazz]

Hi genius1811,

Thank you for your observations, I am sure others have their own views on the comparison you draw.

Please will you use normal sentence case when posting and not all upper case because it looks like you are SHOUTING.

Thank you.
Barry

By readings everyone's comments here, there seems to be a split decision on this debate, but as Decker says, why should VS improve PE if they are selling all their seats. However VS could add a few extra services just to make a difference between the service in EC an PE, i think something like ordering your meals and having them served yo you could be a good start.

Cheers