Air France Crash Toronto

Before placing too much credence on eyewitness reports, don't forget that all pax are likely to have differerent perspectives on what is clearly a harrowing experience.

Air crash investigation is a detailed and lengthy process, yet despite this some bozo on the TV last night was suggesting that Airbus might immediately want to ground all A340's worldwide! Armchair pundits were appearing like a rash across the internet last night and this morning too. However, we won't know the full picture for many days yet, and idle speculation of blame may be interesting but is not particularly helpful to those involved.

BC

Excellent news that there were no passengers/crew killed.

According to ABCNews, this was the first crash ever for an A340. If so that is really a great service record.

I was wondering where the finger of blame will first rest on this one. As we all know many aircraft take of and land without problem in wet conditions.

I imagine that the finger will first point at the Airport for allowing something (maybe other than just water) to lie on the runway with proper clearing and additive spraying.

Paul

Originally posted by p17blo
I was wondering where the finger of blame will first rest on this one. As we all know many aircraft take of and land without problem in wet conditions.

I imagine that the finger will first point at the Airport for allowing something (maybe other than just water) to lie on the runway with proper clearing and additive spraying.

Paul

If speculations are correct, it maybe with nature (lightning strike), but some witnesses did say that the plane was too high on approach, and dropped very suddenly to land.

It always amazes me when they go on about how a plane can take off and land by itself, when something goes wrong it ends up pilot error.
Specially when the pilot hasn't survived.

Do you remember the airbus test flight at an airshow in france, it decided it was higher up than the pilot thought and crashed in to the forrest.

I totally agree with BlackCats comments.

The passenger who said Ã’I don't like to criticise, but the staff did not seem helpful or prepared' was probably in a state of shock. Of cause the crew knew what to do, otherwise, how can you account for no fatalities.

egg,
those were very early airbus days and given the length of service of the A340-300 (14yrs) I'd be surprised if this was a software fault.

Most modern aircraft can take off and land safely and do so every day (without pilots intervention)
This has the advantage of planes being able to land in very low visability etc

Rather than speculate as to the cause I'd rather wait for findings.

Given the nature of the incident though I cant see all 340's being grounded.

If you look at the number of 737's and 747's that have crashed over the years you'll note that a/c rarely get grounded (even when perhaps they should)

United's 811 flight in 1989 was totally preventable if United can carried out Boeings recommendations in a more timely fashion.

Originally posted by Matt
I have just read a PAX report from this incident:

'At some point the wing was off. The oxygen masks never came down. The plane was filling up with smoke.'

She said one of the flight attendants tried to calm passengers and tell them that everything was OK.

'And yet the plane was on fire and smoke pouring in. I don't like to criticise, but the staff did not seem helpful or prepared.'

So that report doesn't bode well for the crew. I guess all this happened though in split seconds. So hard to imagine being in that situation, but also so thankful that everyone was ok physically.

Matt

Are not the oxygen mask there to be used in the event of depressurisation? In the event of a fire on ground surely you want PAX to evacuate not stuck in thier seat sniffing O2 and in the event of a fire the last thing you want is extra oxygen.

I am sure the A/C crash would be distressing but I do not think you can judge matters from the perspective of one individual who may have been highly stessed and who may not understandable know what to expect in such circumstances.

[buns]

The fact that everyone got off safely bears testimony to the need to adhere to all crew requests about keeping aisles clear and now I will always make sure I stow all my stuff.

I am sure I am not the only one who has thought "aren't the crew being a bit picky here" on occasion as the plane is starting its descent - this brings home the need to pay attention to saftey briefings at the start of the flight.

buns

Originally posted by DWiles


Are not the oxygen mask there to be used in the event of depressurisation? In the event of a fire on ground surely you want PAX to evacuate not stuck in thier seat sniffing O2 and in the event of a fire the last thing you want is extra oxygen.

I am sure the A/C crash would be distressing but I do not think you can judge matters from the perspective of one individual who may have been highly stessed and who may not understandable know what to expect in such circumstances.

I thought that But I just thought it was me being pedantic! [:p]

O2 masks are for loss of pressure - not smoke.

However, there have been calls (especially post MAN) for smoke hoods to be supplied in aircraft. Personally, I think I would rather get the hell off than waste time with a hood.

Did anybody notice that from the BBC news pictures tonight, pax were jumping from the doors - ie no slide deployment?

Originally posted by PatDaviesDid anybody notice that from the BBC news pictures tonight, pax were jumping from the doors - ie no slide deployment?

One of the passengers said in a television interview that some of the slides did not work while some did.

The Strawb

[honey lamb]

They obviously didn't work according to this picture.

And it looks as if a couple of the guys managed to get their carry-ons [:0]

[preiffer]

Umm - I thought the whole point of "Doors to Automatic & Cross-check" is to make sure that the doors will automatically deploy the slide if it's opened.

(Hence the "doors to manual" when the land, before opening the door).

So, according to those pictures, either the crew turned the door back to manual - ACTIVELY deciding not to deploy the slides; or they weren't set in the first place?

Having said that, not an expert, so would welcome the "official" view on auto-deploy slides.

If the auto slides are switched off and the crew opens the door and decides a slide would be better is there any button they can press?

[preiffer]

Originally posted by stoneflyer
If the auto slides are switched off and the crew opens the door and decides a slide would be better is there any button they can press?

Yes, there's a handle they can pull on the slide itself to deploy it. (also used in case the auto-deploy doesn't work)

I'm impressed by the Air France Cabin Crew, how they evacuated all 309 passengers in 90 secs, this proves that it can be done.
Also I thank god no one got seriously hurt and all survived.

Well Done:)[y]

Also the A340-300 is a very safe aircraft, this is like the first time I've heard of a crash with the A343, I think it was pilot error, because reports said that the plane had enough fuel to go to divert to another airport.
The Pilots are innocent until proven guilty.

Some passenger said on the news that the slide wouldn't deploy, no matter how hard they tried. This particular passenger then headed to the front left door, which only had a partially deployed slide (barely inflated). It sounds as if some malfuction with the electrical system is blame, but wouldn't it be smart to have battery-deployed emergency slides?

I would be surprised if they had any electrical operation at all. Surely to function in a proper emergency they would just function like an oversized life jacket, ie a rip cord and a bottle of compressed air?

Perhaps it was a maintenance oversight?

[Bazz]

Just a thought, when evacuating the crew have to be sure they are not putting pax at risk so what is happening outside and adjacent to each exit is assessed. In a fire situation, typically not all exits would be opened by the crew, that doesn't mean that a pax may not elect to open one, particularly in the panic as the situation deteriorates. This may account for incorrect deployment of a slide as seen in the pic above.

Whatever worked or didn't work the clearest thing for me from this is the quality of the cabin crew. Evacuating that many people in such a short period of time with only minor injuries is amazing.

A great reminder that the cabin crew are primarily there for situations like this, not for passing out the pretzels and apologising for the bangers n mash.

For any cabin crew who read this, thanks.

Vslf

This is an amazing story--and look forward to hearing those extremely fortunate survivors' stories as well as what comes from the plane's black boxes. Apparently emergency services were there in less than a minute, so hurrah for Toronto as well. What we heard here was that an identical accident occurred there several years ago--same runway, same gully, lightening etc.

What I find truly intriguing though are the number of passengers shown literally leaping from a burning plane (and hotfooting it away)--while carrying laptops, jackets, purses and bags. I'm sure we have all wondered from time to time what we would try to take with us in the event of leaving a crash. This visual data seems to me to indicate a very orderly and well conducted evacuation. As attached as I am to my laptop and my passport, I think I would want both hands free for getting the h#* out of there and would probably have little patience with passengers holding up an evacuation by hauling their carry-on from the overhead!

I have always snickered a little at VS telling women to take our high heels off before using hatch slides but understand the wisdom of moving quickly. My problem in Y is more likely to be that I take my shoes off immediately on take off and then can't find them as they sneakily shift several seats forward--one of the great boons of PE and EC being the personal cubbies which trap them in one place.

I do realize that these pax were preparing to disembark in a few minutes in an uneventful landing but surely they hadn't yet been to the overhead bins? Is there any part of the emergency evacuation drill that advises passengers to abandon personal belongings?

Cheers,

RR