Mobile Phones - Flight Mode

Personally, I don't actually think mobile phones affect anything other than the surrounding pax. It's the same with smoking - apart from the possibility of a fire - it doesn't do anything other than annoy other pax.

Cheers,
VS045

Originally posted by VS045
Personally, I don't actually think mobile phones affect anything other than the surrounding pax. It's the same with smoking - apart from the possibility of a fire - it doesn't do anything other than annoy other pax.

Cheers,
VS045

I think this is a fairly prevalent view, which explains in part the pressure on airlines and CAA/FAA to relax their regulations. The engineering reality is simple: There are circumstances in which RF radiation (such as from a mobile or PDA) does, demonstrably, cause unpredictable and disproportionate effects in other electronic equipment. The process by which this occurs is extremely complex and, fortunately, it is infinitesimally rare for the effect to prove catastrophic (though that possibility, on an airplane, certainly exists). Though still tiny, the risk builds up as greater dependence is placed on safety-critical electronic sysems, such as those in modern fly-by-wire aircraft.

I quite like VS045's sentiment though: I can't see it, therefore it doesn't exist - it's sooo middle-ages

Best wishes

David

I think VS will probably change the rules in time, most likely when they intoduce onboard internet (it will happen eventually ).
Until then your kinda screwed.
However, you have a W800i which uses mms pro sticks (i have the junior version of your phone the k750i). Why not invest in either a 512mb mp3 player (or one equiv. to your phones stick size) or a card reading mp3 player such as This one. This will allow you just to stick your memory stick into the player. No file moving here...
Sure it is an extra cost, but to be fair, its the only way you will be able to listen to your mp3's.

Hope this helps,

kev.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I kind of hope VS doesn't allow people to make cell phone calls on board. I like the ringer-free environment.

Originally posted by VS-EWR
I don't know about the rest of you, but I kind of hope VS doesn't allow people to make cell phone calls on board. I like the ringer-free environment.

Silent mode for any "beepy" devices should be the norm for anyone on a plane!

The real problem right now is that a mobile phone on an airliner at altitude will be able to see a significant number of cells. This is particularly unfriendly to the cell network, as it uses up more network resources. In addition, the phones crank up their transmit power, because all the cells are several miles away if you're at 35000ft.

A phone which is accidentally left switched on in someone's bag during a long haul flight will probably have a flat battery by the time the plane lands - because of the rapid cell swaps and higher transmit power.

These are the two concerns about cellular use on aircraft in flight.

The system referred to in mcbenjamin's link places a mini-cell on the aircraft itself. This causes the phones to turn down their tx power significantly, and prevents the rapid cell switching and cell resource hogging issues on the ground.

This type of system has been on cruise ships for a while. Seeing as they are roaming calls, they will probably be quite pricey, so it will probably have a self-limiting factor regarding use.

BTW, anyone tried Skype off a Connexion by Boeing plane yet?

Cheers,
Mike

[Scrooge]

Originally posted by VS-EWR
I don't know about the rest of you, but I kind of hope VS doesn't allow people to make cell phone calls on board. I like the ringer-free environment.

[^][^][y][y] I agree 100 % with you on this.I know what my reaction would be if I found myself on a flight with 300 people using their cellphone's for 10 hrs telling their friend's what a greattime they were having...don't think there would be a jury anywhere that would convict me .

Just as a note,a firnd of our's works for Boeing,though not in the aircraft area,he designs the electiracal systems for satellites,I asked him a while ago about this very subject,"could a modern jet liner be made to crash due to cellphones etc being used on board"

The short no anorak answer was no,not a chance.As has been stated above all airliner electrical systems are hardened against RF.

He also made the point that if a plane was effected by a small hand held phone,what would it's reaction be when it flew past a cell tower on final,planes would be dropping from the air all day long.

The reason he gave for phones being banned during the flight is not the problem's it causes to the aircraft,but the problems it causes to the cell systems.

To be honest Sky hit the nail on the head. It's impossible for us to monitor as crew, we would forever be asking if it's in flight safe mode. You may find this hard to believe but I have the sneaky feeling some passengers may lie.

[preiffer]

Originally posted by southernbelle
You may find this hard to believe but I have the sneaky feeling some passengers may lie.

Would those be the same ones that are absolutely adamant they handed you the headphones already? Or maybe the ones that "definitely didn't get any salt & pepper pots or wine glasses" with their meal trays...? [ii]

Originally posted by southernbelle
To be honest Sky hit the nail on the head. It's impossible for us to monitor as crew, we would forever be asking if it's in flight safe mode. You may find this hard to believe but I have the sneaky feeling some passengers may lie.

So, what would you do if a dashing handsome trustworthy UCS passanger showed you that his PDA was in flight safe mode? (no, you don't have to answer)

I think this is going to become more a problem though, most devices I have are getting wi-fi or bluetooth....

Cheers
sky

[preiffer]

Actually - that's a point. My PSP has wifi, so do other passenger's PSP's. Nothing to stop us (or mentioned about stopping us...?) having a networked game within the aircraft [:?]

Originally posted by preiffer
Actually - that's a point. My PSP has wifi, so do other passenger's PSP's. Nothing to stop us (or mentioned about stopping us...?) having a networked game within the aircraft [:?]

Same applies for the Nintendo DS. Also more and more high end cameras will have wi-fi in them soonish.

Cheers
sky

Maybe if 300 people had there mobile phones on then there would be a problem???

Until it is proven that they dont cause interference VS will say no.

BMI are starting trials soon I think??

I think Boeing and Airbus are also doing some studies.

In the meantime it is an offence not to obey a crew members instructions such as keeping your phone switched off.

The only way a cell phone can hurt a plane is if it activates a bomb within the aircraft itself. Something I am a little worried about, especially with all of the terrorism in the world today.

Originally posted by VS-EWR
The only way a cell phone can hurt a plane is if it activates a bomb within the aircraft itself. Something I am a little worried about, especially with all of the terrorism in the world today.

Nick - at least you can console yourself that this is very rare if has happened at all in an aeroplane. I should think the chances of accidents far outweight the risk from such events.[:(]

Not sure I agree on VS policy.

I use a PDA, wich can either be in flight mode, or on. There is no other option, other than taking out the battery and loosing all your data. When the announcement started including something about flight mode, it originally said turn off your mobile or put it into flight mode. This soon turned into something I cannot quite remember, which made it unclear if flight mode was allowed or not. So I clarified with cabin crew who confirmed flight mode was fine. Clearly this is contrary to other's experience flying VS (Espc Prieffer's)

As this is an important issue to me, I have just rung VS to clarrify their policy. VS CS say flight mode is not problem, and that their announcement will say that when I fly (!??!).

So I am going ahead and using flight mode as normal.

[preiffer]

Very strange indeed.

Listen to the announcement onboard - they've always specifically stated "including those with flight mode" since I can remember. They certainly did when we were all coming back in November.

As I recall from my SA trip, it was something along the lines of "So Please remember to turn of you mobile phone including those that can be put into flight mode". To me (and as you know I am a bit odd), this could mean either thing. Clearly it could mean turn off your FM device entirely. But it also could mean turn off your phone by putting your device into FM....

Judging from what I have been told, VS mean the second. But I guess only a staffer could tell us what they have been trained.

[Decker]

Well on a trip within the past 12 months or so the FSM has got the manual out to show me that even flight safe devices needed to be turned off. I wasn't overjoyed but there's that old obeying crew instructions thing.

Personally, I want a mobile phone to be just that, a phone, not an MP3 player, games player, camera, etc, etc, Disco sent a generation deaf, these multi use units will send everyone to the opticians...

Olde fogies rule! :D

May I wade into this debate with my two penn'arth?

I recognise that the discussion has become somewhat fragmented: Cellphones in the air in general, cellphones effecting avionics, and (the original topic) the use of cellphone/PDA combo devices in "flight safe mode".

Paul has repeatedly and succinctly put the case in respect of the latter scenario: VS say NO! VS mean NO! What 'southernbelle' says about crew not being able to check each and every gadget in a cabin is sad but true - yes, PAX tell lies! Not only that, but I'd wager some folk haven't a clue how to put their devices into 'flight safe mode' either! It is, nevertheless, frustrating that competent & responsible individuals suffer because of the ignorant/belligerent minority, but it was ever thus.

I must confess, however, that until Sailor99 made the point about PDA/phone devices not having a true "off" mode, I hadn't really considered the situation. On that basis, I for one have unwittingly disobeyed the instruction of cabin crew. Yes, the device was "off" and it was in "flight safe mode" as well, so I was doing my best - does that count!? As an aside, would taking it out of my pocket and playing Patience on it, or listening to an MP3, significantly change the amount of EMF it was emitting? (Yes, I know, that was the original point of the thread!)

As for the next element of the debate; will a cellphone adversely effect an aircraft in flight? Whilst nodding in respectful deference to the knowledgeable views of DavidM, I can't help but express the hugely uninformed opinion of "Will It B******s!".

In support of my blind faith, surely there can't be even one flight that leaves the ground on any given day without a single cellphone left turned on (deliberately or otherwise). I'm no longer talking about 'flight safe' mode here, either. I recall sitting next to a businesswoman on a BOS-EWR flight a year or so ago. The entire duration of flight was spent with her texting via her Blackberry with a friend on a preceding flight (providing useful updates on ATC issues on the approach to New York, as it happened!) If such devices were even slightly effecting flight safety, the airline pilots' organisations would surely be deafening in their protestations?

Sweeping generalisation alert! ....

It is impossible to get an Engineer to describe anything as an impossibility - and it seems to me that ruling out interference with avionics by cellphones is a perfect example of that slightly tongue-in-cheek slight to the profession. The risk aversion fraternity, meanwhile, will translate such a response as "if it could happen, it will happen"... so will follow the course of least resistance and ban it! In this case, as has again been pointed out, they have the support of the telcos who (for sound reasons) don't want their cell sites accessed other than from the ground.

Thus it is my opinion that the airline industry's approach to the use of cellphones is driven by the widely held desire for peace & quiet in the air (as expressed by VS-EWR, Dave, et al). For that matter, I have to say that I agree with that view entirely... until I want/need to use the phone myself, of course. In that case I reserve the right to perform a spectacular U turn in opinion when it selfishly suits me, because that's what us in the Great British Public do! (substitute your own national self-disparaging term here, as appropriate!)

Having said that, I have no doubt that cellphone usage in the air will be commonplace within a few years - mostly as there is a huge market just waiting to be tapped in the form of roaming cells, as described earlier in this discussion. Money talks.

Just so long as I can play Patience on my PDA/cellphone then!

I fear this post has added little of substance to the overall debate, but it has pleased me to join in!

A Happy New Year to all.

Derby Dave

Good points there. Just another thing to throw in: I don't know about any of you businessmen/women on here, but in my opinion, the inability to make calls inflight can allow that time to be used as a nice rest period in between working.

[Scrooge]

I can not remember where i saw this this,but there was an article a while back talking about in air internet service and how you could be sitting in the plane in peace and quiet till some norbert boot's up his computer and log's on to skype..what a horrible thought.

Originally posted by derby_dave
Whilst nodding in respectful deference to the knowledgeable views of DavidM, I've can't help but express the hugely uninformed opinion of "Will It B******s!".

:D:D:D

Like so many things, the policy on this is a compromise, and in this case the balance is between a tiny (but nevertheless demonstrable) technical risk on the one hand, and convenience/commercial pressures on the other. The use of mobile phones on petrol station forecourts is similar - widely ignored, and with no feeling that the risk (insofar as it is understood) is significant.

I think you're right that the balance will continue to shift in favour of convenience/commercial pressures over time and, at the risk of making this more emotive, I cite one unrelated comparison as a warning note: Years ago someone determined that the threat of passengers doing something dangerous with the contents of their hand luggage justified restrictions on what pax could carry. Over time, commercial pressures led to those rules being relaxed and, more significantly, ignored by pax and unenforced by airport authorities. Had the rules been followed, the 9/11 hijackers would not have had the weapons they used on-board. I don't for a second suggest that this would have stopped the atrocities, but it would have made them more difficult and therefore less likely. There are parallels with this issue.

Anyway, Derby Dave, your post drew all the threads of this interesting debate together - thank-you, and happy new year!

David

[Decker]

Here possibly Dave!

Originally posted by jetwet1
I can not remember where i saw this this,but there was an article a while back talking about in air internet service and how you could be sitting in the plane in peace and quiet till some norbert boot's up his computer and log's on to skype..what a horrible thought.

Well it was quite recently when I, and I am sure some others, where contacted by Sky whilst he was mid flight using messenger. So that day is already here (Wasn't a VS flight though).

Paul