Ka nui tena maku. Kua ora au.
He aha te mea nui o te ao?
He tangata! He tangata! He tangata!
Flybird does seem confused - and one wonders what statements can be relied upon.
Worked three years for virgin - Worked several years for Virgin
Back on the 12th Nov Flybird was telling Mazz that he/she would have left Virgin by the 25th Nov.
But still intends to vote in December - seems to be a 'headless chook' that does not appear to know whether it has flown the coup or not!
Worked three years for virgin - Worked several years for Virgin
Back on the 12th Nov Flybird was telling Mazz that he/she would have left Virgin by the 25th Nov.
But still intends to vote in December - seems to be a 'headless chook' that does not appear to know whether it has flown the coup or not!
Originally posted by VS075
Also do I get the feeling that this thread is going in circles again?
It's because you have one foot nailed to the floor [:p]
Honestly, in the build-up to the actual vote and result, there will be some (repetitive) demagoguery from both sides. The next real value we might see in this thread will be on or about Dec 20, I reckon, when the vote result is announced. ISTBC, of course. If this thread frustrates you, you might want to check in then for something truly new...
GJ
Originally posted by GrinningJackanapes
The next real value we might see in this thread will be on or about Dec 20, I reckon, when the vote result is announced. ISTBC, of course. If this thread frustrates you, you might want to check in then for something truly new...
Thread doesn't frustrate me at all (after all this must be the most popular thread on V-Flyer in terms of viewings (nearly 30,000) and posts (this is the 631st)), it just gets annoying to see people disagree with each other so many times, start to throw a little bit of abuse, make statements, and above all add very little to the thread (apart from the news of the latest situation regarding VS/CC/Union.
As much as I like reading this thread I feel that there's nothing more to be added to this thread until the strike ballot result is announced/something crops up between then, and would feel that temporary locking of this thread might be sensible for now, but either way I'm not too bothered.
Frankly, I am appalled by the attitudes of certain members of crew; they clearly show a callous disregard for both their colleagues and pax alike. Attempting to fly the red flag at all costs, some have driven the pay negotiations/ballots etc. into a downward spiral that benefits no one. Pride and arrogance have turned the issue into one not about pay but an 'us vs. them' slogging match which is likely to have dire consequences for all involved.
Other crew on vf have really lifted my faith in the Virgin brand and emphasised that there are still CC par excellence that have an understanding, caring nature that I'm sure is evident in their work. I very much hope to fly with them one day.
45.
Other crew on vf have really lifted my faith in the Virgin brand and emphasised that there are still CC par excellence that have an understanding, caring nature that I'm sure is evident in their work. I very much hope to fly with them one day.
45.
It easy to allow a small number of people who are self appointed spokespeople of 'the crew' to sour the image of the company. Especially if this is their intention when visiting a public internet forum.
We have to wait to see if they represent majority of the cabin crew or if, as I suspect, they are a vocal minority who are tarnishing the image of some hard working dedicated people. That will only become clear when the ballot result is announced.
As far as this thread is concerned, I have sympathy for those who say it is going round in circles but - as I have said before [:D] - it is too important a topic to lock and it still has a way to run.
I would once again urge people to keep the arguments clean and non-personal. Though feeling are running high on all sides, reasoned argument and strong debate are far better than mud slinging and name calling any day.
Nick
We have to wait to see if they represent majority of the cabin crew or if, as I suspect, they are a vocal minority who are tarnishing the image of some hard working dedicated people. That will only become clear when the ballot result is announced.
As far as this thread is concerned, I have sympathy for those who say it is going round in circles but - as I have said before [:D] - it is too important a topic to lock and it still has a way to run.
I would once again urge people to keep the arguments clean and non-personal. Though feeling are running high on all sides, reasoned argument and strong debate are far better than mud slinging and name calling any day.
Nick
Feelings are running high & i've been shocked by the response from some of the crew we know. Not the type of comments on here, but just dissatisfaction with the whole process & statements made by both the union & VS. These CC are not 'rebels' or 'militants' but the type of CC that work hard, love working in the VS team & try to make the most of all available to them (even that much loved LGW IFE!!).
I can see why a skim of my post might have suggested it, but I was quite careful to keep within appropriate ad hominem boundaries. Mostly 
With all the imflamatory comments that my original post fell between, I had no replies to my question.
My reason is this, at my last company which was a former public sector company. We went through a reorganisation which meant that management were very keen to resolve any pay issues. The union fought hard to stop the reorganisation and the changes to pay and conditions and did the best possible deal. These shop stewards who weren't militant and thought striking was a last resort. However once the reorganisation went ahead and redundancies were announced, nearly all of the shop stewards were given redundancies. I suppose what sweeten the deal was that the redundancy package was very generous and were voluntary.
My point is that do the union actually have the Virgin employees best interests or do they know any other information about the future of Virgin which will affect the union members long after they have gone.
I have a question as I have just left a job that I had been for 10 years since leaving university where I was in a union in to a new job that doesn't have a union.
I assume that the shop stewards are Virgin CCs who take on the responsibility of the day to day queries for union members.
For pay negotiations, Do these shop stewards meet with senior 'managers' from Unite and agree a strategy for the negotiations and are these 'managers' from Unite, employees of VA?
Depending on the answer, I give you the reason for my question.
My reason is this, at my last company which was a former public sector company. We went through a reorganisation which meant that management were very keen to resolve any pay issues. The union fought hard to stop the reorganisation and the changes to pay and conditions and did the best possible deal. These shop stewards who weren't militant and thought striking was a last resort. However once the reorganisation went ahead and redundancies were announced, nearly all of the shop stewards were given redundancies. I suppose what sweeten the deal was that the redundancy package was very generous and were voluntary.
My point is that do the union actually have the Virgin employees best interests or do they know any other information about the future of Virgin which will affect the union members long after they have gone.
Originally posted by Nottingham Nick
It easy to allow a small number of people who are self appointed spokespeople of 'the crew' to sour the image of the company. Especially if this is their intention when visiting a public internet forum.
We have to wait to see if they represent majority of the cabin crew or if, as I suspect, they are a vocal minority who are tarnishing the image of some hard working dedicated people. That will only become clear when the ballot result is announced.
As far as this thread is concerned, I have sympathy for those who say it is going round in circles but - as I have said before [:D] - it is too important a topic to lock and it still has a way to run.
I would once again urge people to keep the arguments clean and non-personal. Though feeling are running high on all sides, reasoned argument and strong debate are far better than mud slinging and name calling any day.
Nick
I agree with this post, I have steered well away from this thread for a couple of weeks now, it did shock and anger me some of the comments or more accurately innsinuations some crew members were coming out with about passengers, these have been more vehement on other forum's and diluted on this one. It seems to be un-elected self appointed rabble rousers that do it and have been now for some weeks.
However after my last flight and the exempelary way in which the crew looked after me not in the least bit treating me like a hooliganish, bucket and spade carrying beer swilling pleb which was the impression I had gleamed from this forum and others that Crew thought of MCO bound pax.
So it seems the majority of crew don't think we are plebs that deserve no service and shouldn't expect any from the airbourne emergency service personell.
The almost rabid comments on cabincrew dot com that I have read against anyone that isn't proposing a strike and or revolution and the ultimate downfall of the bearded one just highlight the posters own ignorance and bitterness and sadly justify the indifferent and irrevereant responce by VA's management which serves to hurt the rest of the crews.
Between my wife and me, we have put in 6 sectors on VS and 6 sectors on BA in November'07, all in PE or WT+. These were on India-UK and USA-UK. I would like to think that despite everything, the cabin crew on VS turned out towards pax far better than on BA, and that is as simple as it gets.
This includes a particularly noisy and full flight on VS, LHR-DEL, where we had people who were natives of both countries, from both ends of the flight route, behaving like they were returning on a bus after losing a football game. I think the cabin crew handled that quite well, too, back in Economy. Though I thinj VS needs to start carrying a few club bouncers on this route . . .
I did get to speak with some of the cabin crew on the subject of salaries, and also expressed my views on the rising costs of living in England/Europe, but then all I can say is - this is the real world. If you are young, the world is your oyster, and good luck.
Should VS be held responsible for the fact that England is now a costly country to live in? I don't know, it can not but help compete against equally good carriers from cheaper countries on the other end of the routes they fly to.
All I can say is 'best of luck'.
This includes a particularly noisy and full flight on VS, LHR-DEL, where we had people who were natives of both countries, from both ends of the flight route, behaving like they were returning on a bus after losing a football game. I think the cabin crew handled that quite well, too, back in Economy. Though I thinj VS needs to start carrying a few club bouncers on this route . . .
I did get to speak with some of the cabin crew on the subject of salaries, and also expressed my views on the rising costs of living in England/Europe, but then all I can say is - this is the real world. If you are young, the world is your oyster, and good luck.
Should VS be held responsible for the fact that England is now a costly country to live in? I don't know, it can not but help compete against equally good carriers from cheaper countries on the other end of the routes they fly to.
All I can say is 'best of luck'.
Originally posted by DarkAuror
With all the imflamatory comments that my original post fell between, I had no replies to my question.
I have a question as I have just left a job that I had been for 10 years since leaving university where I was in a union in to a new job that doesn't have a union.
I assume that the shop stewards are Virgin CCs who take on the responsibility of the day to day queries for union members.
For pay negotiations, Do these shop stewards meet with senior 'managers' from Unite and agree a strategy for the negotiations and are these 'managers' from Unite, employees of VA?
Depending on the answer, I give you the reason for my question.
My reason is this, at my last company which was a former public sector company. We went through a reorganisation which meant that management were very keen to resolve any pay issues. The union fought hard to stop the reorganisation and the changes to pay and conditions and did the best possible deal. These shop stewards who weren't militant and thought striking was a last resort. However once the reorganisation went ahead and redundancies were announced, nearly all of the shop stewards were given redundancies. I suppose what sweeten the deal was that the redundancy package was very generous and were voluntary.
My point is that do the union actually have the Virgin employees best interests or do they know any other information about the future of Virgin which will affect the union members long after they have gone.
I do not know how this works at VS, however any sensible company that believes it important to have a good body of communication with its workforce where that has union recognition will engage in strategic discussions. And yes, the union will sometimes be privy to confidential information that employees might not know and will use that to influence their position in regard to negotiations.
As to best interest, I have never met a member of a trade union who has held the interest of an employer above that of an employee - actually I have met many who believe that both are intertwined.
As Nick said earlier, the opinions of a loud few are always important, but not necessarily representative of the whole. We should always try to take a balanced picture of the world!
There's a plane at JFK, to fly you back from far away
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
Regards
James Mitchell
James Mitchell
Originally posted by mitchja
Just come across this BBC story saying that if VS where to strike, it would be in January.
Yesterday's Observer business section carried the same story, albeit without any statement from VS themselves. It was also the headline on today's first business news on Radio 4. VS seem to be playing it very cool; Paul Charles (?) restated VS were 'disappointed' with the ballot (possibly not as disappointed as I will be if my holiday goes up the swanee) and argued that the union had 'recommended' and 'strongly recommended' the two offers put to the vote.
Paul
We can get better, because we're not dead yet
Originally posted by mitchja
Just come across this BBC story saying that if VS where to strike, it would be in January.
Regards
Have to laugh when I read that VS have said that this offer is the best in the UK this year, considering the opinions of others in relation to other airlines.
Also noticed that the 'perks' didn't get a mention, although I suppose that it isn't for discussion apart from the percentage in pay rise.
The Telegraph paints a picture which is not flattering to the cabin crew position on this.
That kind of language suggests to me that Virgin management aren't about to make an 11th hour deal, and with 'only' 1,200 of their cabin crew voting against the deal, they probably feel they'll still be able to operate during industrial action.
However, logic suggests that their will be an adverse effect on business - probably quite significant - which will lead to job cuts. As I understand it, 12 weeks following (the start of?) industrial action, the company can make striking workers redundant (as long as they don't pick-and-choose who would be made redundant; I think it's 1 out, all out) based on the premise that negotiations had failed to reach agreement. Looking at it from this point of view, striking employees would be signing their own P45.
Brian Boyd, national officer for Unite, wrote to members urging them to accept the deal. Despite his 'strong recommendation' that the union members rubberstamp the deal, it was rejected by the cabin crew in a consultative ballot in the autumn.
Virgin Atlantic, which sought to reassure passengers that Christmas flights would not be affected, said only 1,200 cabin crew had voted against the deal. 'The pay offer reflects the huge contribution that our cabin crew make to the airline's success and we have been told by Unite that it is the best to be offered by an airline this year,' said Lyell Strambi, Virgin's chief operating officer.
That kind of language suggests to me that Virgin management aren't about to make an 11th hour deal, and with 'only' 1,200 of their cabin crew voting against the deal, they probably feel they'll still be able to operate during industrial action.
However, logic suggests that their will be an adverse effect on business - probably quite significant - which will lead to job cuts. As I understand it, 12 weeks following (the start of?) industrial action, the company can make striking workers redundant (as long as they don't pick-and-choose who would be made redundant; I think it's 1 out, all out) based on the premise that negotiations had failed to reach agreement. Looking at it from this point of view, striking employees would be signing their own P45.
That would be a really positive move by VS, if only they listened to what their CC really want (& NO it's NOT all about the money), they wouldn't be in this sad situation!!!
This must go down as one of the saddest times in the history of VS, you can't really pin the blame on any single side. The VS management have done little to really listen to their staff, the union have bungled their way along with little or no communication & many of the CC are just fed up with the whole business.
VS is now damaged goods & i'm confident bookings have taken a hit because of the strike ballot. I just hope all sides can get around the table & sort this mess out.
This must go down as one of the saddest times in the history of VS, you can't really pin the blame on any single side. The VS management have done little to really listen to their staff, the union have bungled their way along with little or no communication & many of the CC are just fed up with the whole business.
VS is now damaged goods & i'm confident bookings have taken a hit because of the strike ballot. I just hope all sides can get around the table & sort this mess out.
Originally posted by Denzil
That would be a really positive move by VS, if only they listened to what their CC really want (& NO it's NOT all about the money), they wouldn't be in this sad situation!!!
But at the same time they need to:
a) be realistic
b) be aware of what they get already overall, remember it's not just about pay.
Originally posted by Pete
[ As I understand it, 12 weeks following (the start of?) industrial action, the company can make striking workers redundant (as long as they don't pick-and-choose who would be made redundant; I think it's 1 out, all out) based on the premise that negotiations had failed to reach agreement. Looking at it from this point of view, striking employees would be signing their own P45.
I understand it slightly different,( this is quote from direct.gov.uk)
After 12 weeks of action, you have the right to claim unfair dismissal if:
your employer hasn't taken reasonable steps to settle the dispute; or
you stopped taking part in the industrial action during the 12 week period and are dismissed for taking part during that period
So one could interpret that as the employer has to take reasonable steps to settle the dispute once it has started (negotiations ??) in order to prevent claims of unfair dismissal and if one was to take part in industrial action up to week 11 and then returned to work again any dismissal would be unfair.
A Sad day indeed.[:#]
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