Cabin Crew Pay Update *2nd NOV*

[Pete]

The 12 weeks thing seems to be worded differently in many places, making its interpretation a bit murky; but regardless of that Virgin can make redundancies to protect the business at any time, and if they were cutting back on routes, that would seem to be a valid option. I'm sure the nitty gritty of the law will become more apparent if industrial action becomes a reality.

Indeed, lets hope that communication channels can be reopened between the crew representatives and management and industrial action does not need to take place. A worrying time for all.

The 12 weeks thing seems to be worded differently in many places, making its interpretation a bit murky; but regardless of that Virgin can make redundancies to protect the business at any time, and if they were cutting back on routes, that would seem to be a valid option. I'm sure the nitty gritty of the law will become more apparent if industrial action becomes a reality.

I'm not sure if this is what you were implying, but I don't think there would be cut backs on routes solely as a result of industrial action.

45.

[Pete]

Originally posted by VS045

I'm not sure if this is what you were implying, but I don't think there would be cut backs on routes solely as a result of industrial action.

I think it's entirely possible. It doesn't take much for Virgin to loose customer confidence now this potential strike action is being reported in the national media. It was customer confidence that saw the downturn in business post-911, and Virgin cut back to the bone to stay afloat. They are a comparatively small airline that doesn't have the warchest to ride out a long dispute in the same way as BA.

Just look at this thread to see how passengers react to potential industrial action - many on here that have flights booked around the time a strike may be called are looking to switch carriers just based on the possibility of a strike. Think what that's doing to new bookings.

Originally posted by RichardMannion

Originally posted by Denzil
That would be a really positive move by VS, if only they listened to what their CC really want (& NO it's NOT all about the money), they wouldn't be in this sad situation!!!

But at the same time they need to:

a) be realistic - I think they are, the management haven't listened. Two issues are extra standby & crewdown (this affects all v-flyer members, as service levels can & do drop). 5 months of standby over a 3 year period is NOT what most CC signed up for.
b) be aware of what they get already overall, remember it's not just about pay. 100% spot on, it's not just about money. Many of the CC i know would have ticked the yes box on the last vote IF the extra standby had been removed. Are you fully aware of what the VS CC do get paid?? Many complain about CC comparing themselves with BA, but that is who VS compare themselves to as an airline. Just talking pay/allowances a part time (50% roster) FSM with VS earns on average £1100 a month & the BA equivalent to a VS senior CC on a 75% roster earns £1550. All the benefits are difficult to compare as heavily depends on length of service.

Actually, you could be right, Pete. I had been thinking the strike would only last a few days in which case I don't think that much damage would be done, but if it goes on for a long time I suppose cut-backs are, as you say, a very real possibility.

45.

[Pete]

Originally posted by Denzil

a) be realistic - I think they are, the management haven't listened.

To be fair, what's become abundantly clear is that the management were listening, but the union didn't know what they were asking for.

[RichardMannion]

5 months over 3 years. Let me just check that, over THREE years? So that's less than 2 months per year that crew would have to be on standby? So 86% of the time they are not on standby.

When crew signed up, did they know that there was an element of standby in the job. Don't tell me, it gets in the way of crews personal lives?

My word, what a pickle eh. I used to have to do callout for my job, and we did it on rotation - it was part of the job requirement. No point moaning about it. In all honesty, I didn't care as it was a chance to actually earn extra money - sure, it may disrupt my evening/weekend plans but them the breaks. So if a member of crew gets called up on standby, are you telling me that get no renumeration for it?

Now if certain crew didn't have such a habit for absenteeism, or hypochondria then there wouldn't be much need to invoke people for standby. Amazes me really the irony, crew stick together as a team in certain situations but fail to see that when they chuck a sickie, it means another colleague has to cover from them via standby. Swings and roundabouts.

I've heard directly the fringe benefits and the flexibility that VS give in regards to swapping. It can't be all take, take, take.

Lets ask the members eh? Would you suffer the indignity of having to do extra standby over the next 3 years (extra month or two is it?) for a 4.8% increase this year and RPI for next 2?

To clarify, part time CC did NO part time at VS, so that's a major change!!!
For full time CC under the old system standby was in small blocks spread throughout the annual roster, so you would be guaranteed to fly every month (so earning trip pay/allowances. With the monthly block you may not fly for the whole month (i know nice to get your basic & do nothing!!) & will lose out on pay. So unlike most of us, being on standby can equal less money to VS CC.

'Now if certain crew didn't have such a habit for absenteeism', i can't argue with that, perhaps an attendance payment??

In answer to your question, i'm paid a salary & can be called upon 24 hours a day, so can't really do any extra standby. Luckily my pay rise was higher than 4.8% though!!!!!

[Nottingham Nick]

Originally posted by Denzil
...perhaps an attendance payment??

I think that payment is called wages. [;)]

Nick

To cut 'sickies' some places have an attendance payment (Honda pay £100 a month if you have no sick days & are punctual). I know many of us enjoy our jobs & work hard to achieve our targets, sadly some don't. Apparently the highest times for sickies at BA aligns with Wimbledon, Henley & Ascot!!!!!

Amazing how ill I become when MUFC have a big weekday game...

To answer your question, LRoM, I would probably be OK with the standby (speaking as a salaryman who gets to take calls at midnight, 6am, etc., from reporters and fellow staff around the globe...)

GJ

Originally posted by RichardMannion
5 months over 3 years. Let me just check that, over THREE years? So that's less than 2 months per year that crew would have to be on standby? So 86% of the time they are not on standby.

When you word it like that it doesn't sound like a big deal, I wont repeat what denzil has mentioned re allowances however here is another 'the devil is in the fine print' if you are promoted (i.e. score well in performance monitoring) your standby count gets reset to zero, so if you are a high flier you could do lots and lots of standby every year, just another little quirk. There is also the change that monthly standby will no longer include one weekend off that is guaranteed (weekend defined as a fri or sat or sun and any other day). That is the only concrete day one can make a plan on during a standby month as all other days off are subject to change if you get called for any standby duty (e.g. if you have a 3 day standby window on the last day you get called for a 10 day HKG-SYD), the proposal was to replace these with 'any day' of the week, might sound like a little thing to some, not to others.

Originally posted by RichardMannion
.....Lets ask the members eh? Would you suffer the indignity of having to do extra standby over the next 3 years (extra month or two is it?) for a 4.8% increase this year and RPI for next 2?

They already did, the answer was a 60% No vote.

To cut 'sickies' some places have an attendance payment (Honda pay £100 a month if you have no sick days & are punctual). I know many of us enjoy our jobs & work hard to achieve our targets, sadly some don't. Apparently the highest times for sickies at BA aligns with Wimbledon, Henley & Ascot!!!!!

However, Honda have no union and they have to do compulsory overtime as well.

[RichardMannion]

Originally posted by Voice_of_reason
When you word it like that it doesn't sound like a big deal, I wont repeat what denzil has mentioned re allowances however here is another 'the devil is in the fine print' if you are promoted (i.e. score well in performance monitoring) your standby count gets reset to zero, so if you are a high flier you could do lots and lots of standby every year, just another little quirk. There is also the change that monthly standby will no longer include one weekend off that is guaranteed (weekend defined as a fri or sat or sun and any other day). That is the only concrete day one can make a plan on during a standby month as all other days off are subject to change if you get called for any standby duty (e.g. if you have a 3 day standby window on the last day you get called for a 10 day HKG-SYD), the proposal was to replace these with 'any day' of the week, might sound like a little thing to some, not to others.

Give and take. If you get promoted, you get more money right? And with it a whole new set of conditions. If a subordinate gets promoted to manager in an office, they get a new salary but a whole raft of new requirements that they may not like - such as having to spend time doing performance reviews.

And the whole guaranteed weekend aspect, so I was right, it's an inconvenience to crew's personal lives? If you have a month of standy, you have a month of standby. I personally think VS have been too generous in the past with this flexibility of weekend off in the past. Sure there is work/home life balance but we've already established the ratio of standby to non-standby over the 3 year period. Just accept that for 5 months out of 36, you won't be able to make any firm social plans for those particular months. It's just an aspect of the job.

They already did, the answer was a 60% No vote.

I meant the members of V-Flyer, the general public - we already know what the crew 'think'.

This is one of those situations where threat and anticipation blows up your bubble for so long it just pops, A strike hasn't even started yet and its all already so very boring and turned in to a THEM, US, YOUR WITH US OR AGAINST US scenario.

will it get to the point where the public just won't care and wait for it to be all over and then stick with VA as a company knowing some good deals will be in the offing after a strike. It will probably end up pax will have more respect for VA but non or even disdain for its crew members...that would be a shame, but then pax will remember what the crew have said.

Basically the management tried to get the best deal for the company and customers and offered some cruddy deals......mmm thats business folks.

At which point the Union is supposed to liase with staff and management, relay what the staff want or would be content with to the management and then relay what the management was prepared to or easily able to offer.

From what I read the Union fell flat on its face, didn't really bother to ask what its members wanted rather play at being big boys
and act like their members bosses rather than their reps.

The only tangible evidence I can see that anyone actually spoke to the staff was reading several reports on staff being asked DIRECTLY by management 'on the shop floor' I have read no mention on any other VA related site of Union reps doing any one to ones with crew, just VA.

Its got to the point now where no one seems to know what they want nor understand the present offer and those that do are nit picking at it and trying to tweak aspects of something they seem happy with overall.

Then there are a small number of fight to the death suicidalists who will swipe and sneer at anyone in their 'get Branson' campaign ( but will quite happily accept his cheques ) This handfull of blinkered
crash and burn crew members show themselves up quite amazingly on the cabincrew forum. They take swipes at passengers, other crew, that 'branson'
even the pilots if they don't follow the path of doom. one of them says, I am looking forward to the strike and will get mince pies to hand out on the picket line.

I would be more than happy to pay an extra £20 on every flight to go towards a payrise for the crew, especially the fantastic ones I had last Nov. But the ones I have seen slagging pax off, belittleing pax that use certain routes. Making out they are on a par with qualified nurses and firepersons and the ones that I read insulting their fellow crew members because they don't want to strike, I would not even bother with.

Seems to me the union have been more authoritarian than the actual management.

quote:
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Originally posted by DarkAuror

With all the imflamatory comments that my original post fell between, I had no replies to my question.


quote:
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I have a question as I have just left a job that I had been for 10 years since leaving university where I was in a union in to a new job that doesn't have a union.

I assume that the shop stewards are Virgin CCs who take on the responsibility of the day to day queries for union members.

For pay negotiations, Do these shop stewards meet with senior 'managers' from Unite and agree a strategy for the negotiations and are these 'managers' from Unite, employees of VA?

Depending on the answer, I give you the reason for my question.

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My reason is this, at my last company which was a former public sector company. We went through a reorganisation which meant that management were very keen to resolve any pay issues. The union fought hard to stop the reorganisation and the changes to pay and conditions and did the best possible deal. These shop stewards who weren't militant and thought striking was a last resort. However once the reorganisation went ahead and redundancies were announced, nearly all of the shop stewards were given redundancies. I suppose what sweeten the deal was that the redundancy package was very generous and were voluntary.

My point is that do the union actually have the Virgin employees best interests or do they know any other information about the future of Virgin which will affect the union members long after they have gone.


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I do not know how this works at VS, however any sensible company that believes it important to have a good body of communication with its workforce where that has union recognition will engage in strategic discussions. And yes, the union will sometimes be privy to confidential information that employees might not know and will use that to influence their position in regard to negotiations.

As to best interest, I have never met a member of a trade union who has held the interest of an employer above that of an employee - actually I have met many who believe that both are intertwined.

As Nick said earlier, the opinions of a loud few are always important, but not necessarily representative of the whole. We should always try to take a balanced picture of the world!

As EasyGoing Geezer has mentioned and I was trying to find out (very badly!). If the union doesn't have representives within the crew, how are they do know what the crew really want and not assume what they want. To use the phrase 'to assume makes an ass with of u and me'

I have to whole-heartedly agree with Easygoingeezer.
The communication from management has been superb; something every week. Holding up their hands saying 'we got it wrong' but never once apportioning the blame to anyone else.
The union however............My goodness! EGG hit the nail on the head when he said they acted like our bosses and not our reps!
I think what denzil was trying to say in his last post (but worded it incorrectly) is that before (under the old system) part-time crew did not have to do stand-by which worked perfectly as 99% of part-timers have children and arranging childcare for up to 10 days with 2 hours notice is simply not possible for most! (dont forget, most childcare has to be paid for in advance even if not used, so if not called on for standby, then the majority of your wage is swallowed up).
No idea where Denzil got £1100 for a part-time FSM from! I wish! More like £800 and not a penny more, but you cant complain as its rare to work more than 40 hours for that. I'd say I've definitely landed on my feet in terms of what my job entails. My other friends with children are so jealous. I work far, far less than them and get paid double what they do, not to mention my perks (caribbean beach party anyone?)

All in all, this whole episode has been a complete eye opener and the only people that I have gained more respect for, are our management and our loyal pax who take the time to offer view points and helpful, honest advice.

Below is what a cc member has written on prune advising other members to take a look at what us pax think about the dispute.


Below that is the response he or she got, now do you want this person to get a pay rise....I don't.


( a post on prune )



I can also recommend cabincrew.com and v-flyer.com

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( The reply it got )

I should have been clearer... I need quality info from people with brains.

Maybe he/she/it was referring solely to cabincrew? [:(]

GJ

Originally posted by GrinningJackanapes
Maybe he/she/it was referring solely to cabincrew? [:(]

GJ

May be but the jist of the convo was about how pax were reacting and people could take a look and see before deciding on how to vote.

Personally I think VA needs to wheedle out the crew members that have zero respect for pax for the sake of the payers and the many fabulous crew members that might get tarnished with this bad attitude.

Originally posted by easygoingeezer

Personally I think VA needs to wheedle out the crew members that have zero respect for pax for the sake of the payers and the many fabulous crew members that might get tarnished with this bad attitude.

That's the nut to crack at every business with a customer base...how to do so is the rub!

GJ

Personally I think VA needs to wheedle out the crew members that have zero respect for pax for the sake of the payers and the many fabulous crew members that might get tarnished with this bad attitude.

Well I would be quite happy to fly around at VS' expense and distinguish the good from the bad[;)]

45.

'"No idea where Denzil got £1100 for a part-time FSM from!' From the horses mouth

Great Smile: once again, thank you so much for your contribution. Crabby, cantankerous, passenger-hating, childish and reckless crew-members have darkened this forum and others of late. You remind us that beyond this braying bitterness, VS can still count on some thoughtful, service-oriented professionals. You are a brilliant glint of sunshine which pierces turbulent, brooding clouds; you give hope that VS will land safely after this bumpy flight.