Laptops

Hi,

Just a quick question.

If a touch-screen data entry device similar to a keyborad was provided for use with the LCD displays available on aeroplanes, and was capable of controlling anything currently available to you (including games). Aswell as the ability to type e-mails, type word documents and perform other windows based applications.

Would you be prepared to use this device instead of your laptop?

Using the LCD screen would enable a better posture whilst seated. Data such as word documents, pdf's e.t.c could be transferred to and from the device via a USB memory stick (provided for frequent flyers) or by e-mailing the files over to an account before your flight.

I would be grateful for any comments of suggestions

Thanks

Dan









Topic moved by Mod........Nick

I think while the IFE screens are good for watching films on, staring at them for some time to do something like word processing would be much more comfortable on a larger screen that a laptop has. Also, the transferring of files to and from the device via a 3rd party sounds awkwardly complicated, compared with accessing a document stored locally on your pc.

I dont think this is a bad idea however. Not everyone is fortunate enough to own or be provided with a laptop and im sure there is a market for those who might like to loan one inflight, for those that want to use files stored on a PDA or smartphone and for those who have unpredicted tech issues with their laptop.

I stand to be corrected (I must admit I cant fully imagine what you are describing) but I dont think it would tempt many existing laptop owners away from their 12" plus screens.

Good luck with your project.

Martin

Thanks, some good ideas there.

The product is designed primarily for use in Upper-class and the monitor would be redesigned to a different spec, the screensize would be as big, if not bigger than a standard laptop screen. But obviously this system could be used in economy classes too.

The power implications of using such a device would be more stable due to a pre designed power linkage. Rather than various laptops taking as much as they need.

The main ideas is to prevent bad posture and reduce the amounts of hand luggage in the cabin. As a complete media controller with access to a much wider selection of entertainment the idea is that bringing in games consoles and personal media players is not necessary. For example the majority of music on your player will be available on the plane and if not it can be available upon request.

As for aesthetics, the current model/form is very basic. take a look...
the controller will have the ability to glow as the cabin lights are dimmed.

[Nottingham Nick]

Dan

It looks to be a great product. A couple of 'off the cuff' comments. Firstly, Cost? Do you envisage that it will be a 'pay as you go' product - or included in the cost of the UC ticket?

Secondly, you say it will reduce the need to bring on games consoles and media palyers. I lot of people I know have these incorporated into their laptops and, for all sorts or reasons, no matter what IFE / technology was available in the cabin - they would still be VERY reluctant to let their laptop out of their sight and be checked.

Nick

Some valid points there..

When working on the features I have taken into account that fact that there are many passengers who will not be coming on-board with a laptop.

The ideas is that the touch screen controller will act as controls for many game platforms through emulator technology. For e.g if you select a nintendo 64 game, the appropriate controls will be projected onto the screen. In theory you can have every console and its games available on the database. Just think how many different control pads would be required to perform this function?

The controller would be available with no extra charge. The technology is infact quite cheap. and could be implemented throughout the plane. With a lower specification as the ticket price drops.

There would also be an accessible DVd-Rom drive for passenger cd's/dvd's
If you were wondering where the phone comes into the design. It would be used via a headset with a microphone attached.

Cheers

[preiffer]

Welcome to the site, BrokenZ [y]

Are these being suggested as a potential "official" Virgin product, or just in general?


Some thoughts:

1) I like using my laptop - it has my files & email on it. While a mini-pc sounds like a very "cool toy" to have on the plane, I think I'd still carry on using my own equipment. USB sticks are great - but my laptop has ALL I need on it, not just a subsection of pre-selected files.

2) You won't get rid of my ipod or PSP - I have my own music, videos, playlists & photos on my iPod and my favourite games (including saved ones) with/on my PSP. With that in mind, coupled with the laptop issue, I don't see it saving any hand luggage.

3) v:port is not exactly the most reliable system in the world. (I'm not suggesting it's UNreliable, but it has been known to break...) This looks like it would add another layer of complexity for the crew to deal with should things go wrong.

4) I do like the look of it though... [:I]

Thanks,

The brief is for Virgin atlantic, but the way in which i have been approaching the design means that it could easliy be re-branded and implemented into other aircrafts.

The ability to write SMS messages from the plane will be popular as the technology is implemented. If a passenger wants to do some work, but has no real need for their laptop once they step off the plane then using the in flight system is a good compromise. Many will still choose to use their laptop but, this is an alternative especially for those who dont own these items.

Have you found any web references to the Vport malfunctioning? had a quick scan but cant see anything.

Cheers

[preiffer]

Hi BrokenZ,

Yes - I see the value for the very occasional user - as you describe above. In terms of v:port malfunctions, well, there are quite a few members here that have been subject to either a malfunction or system failure at some point in their list of flights with VS. I've certainly had it fail 2/3 times in the past couple years.

I think the key is that it's not UN-reliable, in general. It's just certainly not 100% yet. (System startup is also slow).

Given the limited options the crew have if that system fails, I do worry about increasing the level of complexity further by adding more advanced peripherals and (presumably) even more demanding software...


PS - You'll find quite a few answers with the Search Function. Examples such as this one inside the IFE Forum

the tech side of the design needs alot of work but i am confident that there will be a way around it. Unfortunately it seems that technology can often go a little crazy and shut itself off, its just working with the progressions..
Working around the glitches is always a good place to start.

Thanks for the links, exactly what i was after.

Any more comments? keep them coming.

Cheers.

[Nottingham Nick]

On the subject of V-Port reliability, one of the main problems is the location of the handset, and hamfisted pax pulling on the cord too heavily.

Nick

[Pete]

It looks like it's a neat gadget, but it wouldn't stop me taking my laptop in my cabin baggage (if that's the goal) for the following reasons;

- If I'm planning to do work, all my files and applications are on my own laptop.
- I'm a Mac user, so my apps won't run on a PC.
- I wouldn't be happy about copying my own files onto a public machine.
- Even if I don't plan to use my laptop in-flight, it'll still be in the cabin baggage because I wouldn't leave it in checked baggage. A cracked LCD screen is expensive to replace.
- Whilst it may look cool, that keyboard certainly wouldn't be as ergonomic as your average laptop. Less feedback from a keypress, so you'd probably be hunt-and-peck and pressing harder than you normally would because of the lack of movement on the downward stroke).

Pete

Yes i was looking into the positioning of the current controller and there seems to be a few problems that people have encountered with it.

As for reducing clutter in the cabin, it is a concern, but not a priority.

On the PC vs MAC files situation, the idea was there would be seperate interfaces for use with mac or pc files. but with video, adobe files like .pdf .ai e.t.c already compatible on both machines then there is likely to be further compatibility over the next few years.

Having files stored on a public system really depends on the passenger, private research and statistics are private for a reason. While preparing basic e-mails and documentation would be easy in the absence of your own laptop you can use the system. How about storing playlists or weblinks?

On the touch sensitivity im looking at raising certain parts of the touch screen to enable touch typing. This would be especially useful for say controlling volume and playing games.

As for the ergonomics, it is small enough to place on any of the trays/tables in the virgin fleet whilst using word processing software. It is designed to be held up like a playstation controller when controlling games or entertainment.

Thanks for the feedback

[Pete]

Originally posted by BrokenZ


On the PC vs MAC files situation, the idea was there would be seperate interfaces for use with mac or pc files. but with video, adobe files like .pdf .ai e.t.c already compatible on both machines then there is likely to be further compatibility over the next few years.

Essentially, PDF is a read-only format, whereas the sort of work I do on board is at the creation end, so need to have access to Quark XPress, Macromedia Freehand, Adobe Photoshop, etc. For that to work, I'd need some seamless way of getting my files on and off the device and for the device to have every possible application for Mac & PC plus font installed. Not going to happen - the per seat user license would be astronomical.

I think the goal of getting passengers to pass up their own laptop in favour of this device is a non-starter. Perhaps you'd be better off looking at whether this would be a good interface to the onboard AVOD system (enhanced with Internet connectivity). The current V:Port handset, though neat, is a pain to use for typing SMS messages or anything other than navigation.

Pete

Thx pete

I agree, i mainly use illustration tools such as indesign, illustrator, after effects, photoshop and then flash and studio max. An initial idea was that the keyboard would be turned into one big tablet to control these.. like the example below..

http://mrl.nyu.edu/~jhan/ftirtouch/

after further research it was obvious that this was not practical. I find illustration work difficult on a laptop anyway.

Therefore if you use your laptop for basic functions such as communication, web browsing and basic word processing the system would suit you. the possibilities for this product are huge, but what i need to do is narrow the ideas down so as to create a realistic pitch.

The transfer of read-only files such as .pdf would be usefull when reading up on mintel reports for example.

Whilst using your laptop on a plane do you ever get motion sickness or get neck pain from the angle you view the laptop screen?

Another idea was to allow the linkage of the laptop to the monitor, allowing a bigger monitor and better posture.

Dan

[preiffer]

Bigger monitor as part of the IFE?

My laptop screen is 15.2". The (large, by industry standards) IFE screen in Upper is 10.4" I believe. I have no "posture" issues using it over using it on a desk. Motion sickness wouldn't be any different looking at a laptop screen over the IFE monitor.


Not really an improvement... [?]


One other thing to consider:

I take my laptop with me, not purely to use on the plane - but to use where I'm going. I wouldn't check my laptop in the hold (and wouldn't recommend that anyone does that). So, I have my laptop with me, in the cabin, regardless.

It has all my programs/files/emails/etc on it. Laptop power is provided to me by the airline. Why would I use another system without any/all of that? (With a smaller screen )

[Pete]

I think Paul's hit the nail on the head there. You'll have your laptop with you anyway, and it's going to have everything on it ready to go. From sleep mode, I'm working before they've even asked what I'd like to drink. I can't see me spending any amount of time transfering files.

No, really. Think about how they're going to tackle web-enabled IFEs, and the interface to that.

Pete

[RichardMannion]

Hi there,

Sorry for chipping in late but a few observations/pointers from me:

a) Security - a lot of corporations have their strictly defined security policies around machine usage, and would be sceptical of allowing corporate work to be done on an 'open' terminal such as the one being proposed. The USB transfer mechanism sounds good to the otusider, but in my org, one of the most requested features is the ability to prevent USB and other removable storage mediums being used in their infrastructure for data theft and virus security reasons. One large entity actually puts an epoxy resin in all USB ports on their entire desktop and laptop estate for this reason.

b) Licensing costs - the rights to use formats such as Word, Excel etc come at cost (pays my wages ultimately! ), and these would ahve to be factored in. Office 12 (2007) moves to an open format for the files, but obviously it will take time for comapnies to roll out this version of Office.

The others have summed it up that they will still take their laptops with them, for a multitude of reasons. One that I don't think has been mentioned is watching DVD's - even with the selection of films and other content that is on V:Port, if you are flying regularly there may be nothing of interest. I regularly use my laptops for watching DVD's as there is no fear of the battery runnign out either with the available Empower.

Not sure if you have seen, but there is already a device out int he market similiar to what you are describing in regards to data input. We used it at our demo Microsoft Home last year, and it stole the show. It was placed in the Kitchen and allowed the end user to type in on her worksurface that was covered in flour. Works with a whoel range of devices too, such as phones, PDA's.

http://www.virtual-laser-keyboard.com/

Hope this info helps, let me know if you requiore any further info or guidance,
Richard

Originally posted by RichardMannion
b) Licensing costs - the rights to use formats such as Word, Excel etc come at cost

Not if you use OpenOffice, which can handle proprietary M$ Office formats perfectly well

Cheers

Michael

Very good feedback thanks..

The screens would be worked to a larger scale, anyhting upto 17". Bearing in mind this technology would not get implemented straight away and there is likely to be other tech advancements and cost reductions.

pixuk & preiffer: It is clear from this feedback that the original concept of an improved entertainment system, with the ability to send e-mails and sms is more realistic. The feedback provided has been exactly what was needed. There are so many concepts for this item that it is easy to overlook basic flaws.

Another idea is primarily for holidaymakers/leisure passengers; a chat system enabling communication along the lines of MSN messenger service.
You could communicate with other passengers 1 on 1 via selection from a virtual seatplan or on special chat rooms. The system would also allow language translation for communication with international passengers, especially handy if you can't communicate with the passenger next to you. Is this realsistic? If you were travelling on holiday would this interest you? Being able to find out about the destination. I know there already places like this forum where you can chat about flight realted topics, but the majority of passsengers will be oblivious.

Thanks for the links Richard, ive actually been researching this technology, the main problem encountered was that whilst lying down in the upper class beds it was awkward to find a decent place to project the controls? Also theres the touch sensitivity that would be awkward if the controls were constantly projected in different positions.

Thanks for your help.

[Pete]

Dan,

V:Port already has some basic seat-to-seat communication, plus you can make seat-to-seat calls using the handset; but I think you may be restricting yourself to the current paradigm. Sooner or later we're going to see internet connectivity on all aircraft (some carriers already have it); and it'll be wireless for those that have their own laptops. Where your device is going to be useful is for those passengers that want to surf the net or MSN their friend back home but don't have their own laptop with them. There's three aspects to focus on - firstly (and you've given this some thought already), the ergomonics of the device within the setting of a cabin; but there's also the safety aspects (every item fitted to an aircraft has to be approved by the CAA/FAA; think about stowage and how/if it would obstruct exit in an emergency; how it would break on impact; what materials will be used in its construction); and the other thing is weight (every extra piece of equipment requires more fuel to be carried to transport it. Virgin even recently removed one of the pillows in Upper, supposedly to reduce weight.)

Pete

I can see such an Idea being of more use in Y where it is often too cramped to comfortably set up a laptop. I have a good spec laptop, but try to leave it behind when travelling for leisure, and I must admit on my last flight I was wishing i had some way of reviewing my digital photos on the IFE screen via some kind of card reader built into the seat.
I guess once internet access becomes more widespread and affordable then a reasonable input device will become essential.
And again this would probably be in Y where sleep is more difficult, and having as much as possible to pass the time is very important.

By the time I've "worked out" exactly which files I might want to work on, and either e-mailed them to myself, or put them on a memory card, I could have just thrown my laptop over my shoulder and left the office.

Where the idea is cool, and the proposition fairly smart, I don't see it catching on. It will be impossible to make it compatible enough for everyone to use, and as others have previously mentioned, simply offering document support just won't cut it. Business people use a lot more than Word and Excel (and their Mac equivelants). Not to mention you have to address version compatibility. Just as an example, if my office is using Word 2003 and the aircraft Word 2004, it's conceivable the file might be saved in a format I wouldn't be able to use later.

Not to mention that I would take my laptop anyway, for use in the car and airport at both ends, or at the meeting I'm flying to. So being that my computer would be with me, you have to offer enough features and compatibility and make it easy enough to make me just turn on your system, instead of reaching over and turning on my laptop- which is just not likley.

Cool idea, but I think it's unrealistic and really unlikley. VS would never commit to it without enough people saying they think it's a good idea. I think there are a lot of other changes that could be made for the same or less money.

On the other hand, as some have said... I could see some type of glorified Windows Media Center as a useful replacement to the current IFE. Perhaps with a 6-in-1 or similar card reading device for reviewing photos, listening to your own music, etc. Say I want to bring my own music, I could load it onto a 2Gb microdrive, pop it in my seat, and have that load up in the music database for my seat. Some type of real-time weather program might be useful too. Type in your city or postal/zip code and the current weather comes up. I would imagine that could be downloaded every 30 minutes or so over the aircraft satellite and loaded into an onboard database. You also need to consider where it is all going to go. I have always thought the controller/handset would be better behind the tray table than in the armrest. Open the tray table, and the handset is located in the seat back.

Has anyone heard anything about the god forsaken IFE boxes under the seats? I heard a rumor that they were being made smaller/relocated/removed, but haven't heard anything else. Anyone know? Please come up with a way to move those, heck, take away a cubit foot in every 3 or 4 overheads and put them up there... without that huge metal box, there can't be that much to them.

Thanks for the replies, not being a frequent flyer, or a laptop user im am overlooking so many flaws in concepts...

The concept was always for an improved entertainment system with new controls, the idea that it could be used instead of a laptop was wishfull thinking and has been proven both here and elsewhere that it is not a realistic sollution.

One of the primary reasons behind the controller was the implementation of the internet. With the msn web application there is no need for a msn device on the system, but rather a system to connect as many passengers as possible. In a chat room chat is easily accessible, the people who want to communicate will be filtered out. This chat room could be web based.

The card reader seems to be a popular choice. The ability to prepare, review and e-mail holiday photos even before you get home!

Are there any other features you would like to see in the plane? Items for use whether you have a laptop or not.

[Decker]

There's another issue just to muddy the water. We're responding as (for the most part) frequent flyers. Who's to say what less regular flyers will want? . IF we're going to have IM how about seat cams.... Card reader seems eminently reasonable. Now how about a commercial link to transmit back images to a printing service for hard copy. Have to confess I can't see my using this but just trying to think outside the box. An I-Tunes download so if we hear something we like we can plug in our USB and purchase there and then. World of Warcraft?

[Pete]

Originally posted by Decker
World of Warcraft?

Ok, I've got to check... Are you on the Bronzebeard server?