V-Flyer

It’s been almost four event filled years since the website we now know as V-Flyer was first launched into cyberspace, and we think it’s time to stop for a moment’s reflection about where we’ve been and more importantly where we’re going. From modest beginnings V-Flyer has grown into the largest UK website dedicated to any airline – and all the while remaining completely independent of Virgin Atlantic. That expansion has been made possible by the dedication of a small band of willing volunteer moderators, but more importantly by the active involvement of YOU! The website isn’t the only thing to have grown – so have our social networks. Members and their partners have got together on numerous occasions both in the UK and further afield and as V-Flyer grows so does the diversity of the occasions!

As the site grows you can probably appreciate that the costs of running it grow too. V-Flyer isn’t meant to generate huge wads of dosh, but it would be nice if it were at least self funding! Paid up memberships go some way towards helping with this as does the occasional advertising campaign. So we can either fund the expansion by more adverts, or by getting more paid members!

With this in mind we’ve been doing lots of behind the scenes brainstorming and we think we’ve reached consensus on a way forward that is affordable and more importantly fair – because fair is important to us.

What we intend to do can be broken down into three main areas :-

We’ll add extra forums for our “paid up” “Clubhouse” members – including (at last) an “off topic” discussion forum in recognition of the social aspect of the site; where members can chat about anything and everything without worrying about whether a mod will lock it down as “Off Topic”.

We’ll be cutting down on access for current non paid up members. They’ll be able to see less of the “value added” forums – and eventually they’ll become purely spectators at the feast. They will still have posting rights in some forums up until 31st March 2007. People who join V-Flyer from now on will need a paid membership in order to post.

The costs of membership have been designed to make it affordable for those that simply want to join the site for a short period of time to ask questions about a flight in the near future, but also rewarding those who sign up for longer periods with big discounts. We're also changing the membership colour bands (Red, Silver, Gold & Black) so they reflect the commitment to the site rather than simple number of posts (which have, in the past, potentially been open to abuse!)

We’ll also be increasing the forum scope to deal with other UK based airlines. One of the strengths of V-Flyer is the depth of specialist knowledge, so we’re hoping to start to apply this to British Airways with scope for other UK airlines. This isn’t a move away from Virgin Atlantic, rather a pragmatic understanding that whilst what brought us together is an interest in Virgin we don’t always get to fly Virgin and it would be nice to have access to the same depth of knowledge for those times. This particular task is a biggy so might not happen in its final form immediately but we wanted to give you a “heads up” on where we’re trying to go.

These changes will happen very soon, but as always with software development (since that's what a website is), there will always be the odd gremlin as the new system is rolled out. As a “Thank You” to current paid up members they won’t be asked to re-subscribe until the first quarter of 2008.

Other improvements, many suggested by site members, are also in the pipeline. We are always looking for ways to improve the site and hope that the community that has been created will continue to grow well into the future.


The Mods.

Well Done V Flyer, Richard and all the mods. I look forward to the changes and guarantee my continued support and paid membership to the newer version of the forum when it arrives.

Happy Developing Guys:D

Beginning to see some of the changes already [y] I like the membership status link at the top. It will help remind me when I'm due to stump up again.

Well done to pix and all the Mods. This has taken a lot of thought and discussion - not to mention a few bevvies at the various socials

I should say it more often but a great big thanks to all those involved in running this site both those we can see and those behind the scenes [^]

I for one would be more than happy to pay an increased membership fee .... worth every penny for all that you can get out of this site.

Cheers

Mark

I have always supported V-Flyer as I think it is useful and worthwhile. However I have to say that given that the site will essentially become a full membership site (ie you won't be able to do anything other than read posts unless you have a membership) that £2.99 a month, £4.99 a quarter, £12.99 annual or £50 for 5 years is over the top.
I do understand the site has costs but there are other sites (with more generalised content granted) that range from free to a donation based membership scheme (almost as V-Flyer was I guess).
Whilst I am sure the hardcore members won't have a problem showing their appreciation by paying the £50 (I will most probably be one of them to be honest) I feel that we could loose valuable contributions (posts) from those current and future users unwilling to pay what could amount to £2.99 to have 1 question answered, or more than that pay £2.99 to post a TR or some information about a recent flight or update from the airport.

Paul

Agree with Paul, never paid a penny for any forum in my life. I thought discussions on open forum should always be free.

Ok, I do feel that there are a lot of information on this site, and there are experts around to provide instant information.

But charging money for an open forum, I don't get it. Perhaps V-Flyer will more towards an exclusive luxury club, which I can understand on that end.

I really need to consider this or seek alternatives. I do feel there is a gap in the market to provide expert information for free (plus getting money from advertisement once you attracted and secured a group of people who visit it regularly base of the useful information). I think V-Flyer is moving away from it now. Perhaps should do more on advertisement as alternative.

Sorry, I have great respect on mods. Just my thoughts base on 15 years IT experience.

Snow

I am amazed at the reactions above!!! There are plenty of paid forums and member only web sites out there. Just how do you guys think that V-flyer pays for itself if not through the membershipo fees and donations it generates. If you have already paid £40 by getting to black member status why is it such an issue to pay £50 for 5 years of use of the site. I really am flabberagsted that this amount is such an issue - the annual fee is £1 per month, the 5 year fee equates to 83p per month!!!!

I agree that its a risk that you turn people away by not allowing them to post but the reverse of that is that the site gets bigger and bigger, the user numbers get larger and larger and eventually the cost of running the server and the software developemt force it to close!!! Thats not acceptable either is it?

I know that this has been debated for a good few months and that there are bound to be some who do not feel that the changes ar erigth or to their benefit - but as ever in these situations - doing nothing was not an option!!!

I personally believe that anyone interested in VS who is then able to read the information on the site and seeing the level of detail will not feel too aggrieved at trying it out for £2.99.

I guess time will tell if this is successful!!

To address the point that forums should always be free, unfortunately the reality is that nothing is actually ever free, and somebody, somewhere in the chain is footing the bill for the server space, the bandwidth and the development. Once upon a time on the internet, banner ads used to provide a revenue stream to cover the costs; but the prices for those tumbled and now more and more banner agencies only sell ads based on the cost-per-click model. With an average click rate across the industry of less that 1%, and revenue for those clicks only a few pence, you have to be delivering 100's of thousands of ads before you're even turning over a few pounds (and then the agency normally takes half anyway!).

As any forum grows, so do the costs. What once could be funded as a hobby from an individual's own resources, starts to become a financial commitment. V-Flyer started on a ISP's server on what could be best described as a 'home users' package - the sort of thing you and I would use to share photos with our family. Not too many features, and not too much bandwidth required. But it has outgrown that several times, and at each step we've seen significant 'overage' charges on bandwidth as we outgrow one package, and a step-up in monthly charges as we move to the next, higher-grade, more robust ISP.

Similar fora to V-Flyer already have a membership model as their prime source of income - most notably airliners.net. Others, like the DIBB use a membership subscription model too, and there are probably countless other examples out there. The V-Flyer moderating team have been discussing this issue for close to 18 months now, and this step really is the best solution we could come up with. The bottom line is, advertising & voluntary donations/memberships do not cover the costs, without so kind of action for the future, V-Flyer would eventually become unsustainable.

But, it's worth stressing that not being able to post a message, doesn't stop you finding answers to your questions. If you choose not to support the site with a membership, you are still free to use the various tools on V-Flyer and search the open fora for information. All we are asking is, that if you want to ask your community of peers a specific question about your flight/holiday/tier points/etc, that you chip in a little to the costs of the infrastructure.

Pete

Well said! [y]

Snow

I for one look forward to visiting your forum when you set it up. Sort of a "money/mouth" situation .

Well said Pete,[^] [^] [^] V-Flyer will always have my support 100%.

I just wanted to clarify two points

Originally posted by MarkJ
I am amazed at the reactions above!!! There are plenty of paid forums and member only web sites out there. Just how do you guys think that V-flyer pays for itself if not through the membershipo fees and donations it generates. If you have already paid £40 by getting to black member status why is it such an issue to pay £50 for 5 years of use of the site. I really am flabberagsted that this amount is such an issue - the annual fee is £1 per month, the 5 year fee equates to 83p per month!!!!

I think you missed my point slightly. Yes I have paid £32.50 to get to Black membership level. This has currently served me for 18 months and looks like it will do for another year essentially meaning that I have paid the equivalent of around £1 a month. I already have stated that I have supported this site during it's voluntary membership level and I also stated that I would most likely pay the £50 for a 5 year membership however my point is NOT EVERYONE WILL. And to my mind I think that is a shame. This is because I think those who are not and won't become members have added value to this site in the past.
I don't want to see this site become smaller due to less people wanted to pay to take part.

Originally posted by pixuk
But, it's worth stressing that not being able to post a message, doesn't stop you finding answers to your questions. If you choose not to support the site with a membership, you are still free to use the various tools on V-Flyer and search the open fora for information. All we are asking is, that if you want to ask your community of peers a specific question about your flight/holiday/tier points/etc, that you chip in a little to the costs of the infrastructure.


Pete

Yes Pete this is a valid point taking over and above the point I make above but only if the search facility on the site is fixed. Searching on forum title will have limited success to some and the google method failed to help me last week.

I am a member at The Dibb. However as I only use this forum once in a blue moon I have never taken a paid membership. This doesn't however exclude me from making posts.

My other fear is that £2.99 to someone who wants to try the forum may deter them. A Question they may be thinking will include 'What if I don't get an answer to my question?'. Surely in this scenario it will always be best to have at least one open 'FREE' forum or maybe a month or even a week free trial. What about those who show commitment but can't necessarily afford £2.99 a month. What about some of the younger members.

Ultimately if subscriber levels turn down this may well have the effect of driving more people away.

Paul

These are valid points that you have raised Paul, but please be assured that we have bounced those issues around the moderating team for more than a year now.

By far the largest majority of visitors to V-Flyer are unregistered lurkers. We get around 200,000 unique visits per month, yet we only have 2,888 registerd users. Those 197,000 other users presumably can find the information they need without the need to register and post a new question. From my perception, a lot of posts by new users are issues which could probably be found using the on-site tools or searching in the appropriate forum. (The search facility 'in message' should now be ok, although I admit it will struggle if you search every forum, in both subject & message. There's over 100,000 posts to trawl through, afterall. Limiting it to the most appropriate forum will possibly be more successful.)

To quote your own words, "I don't want to see this site become smaller due to less people wanted to pay to take part." - Well, me too. But the reality is it also can't keep growing at an unsustainable rate. We have to monitor the next 12 months very carefully to make sure it doesn't die. It's a potential risk, but believe me, we'd fix it before it got that far.

Pete

I must say when I first realised what the costs were going to be I was a little taken back, but then after reading Mark's breakdown (thanks Mark!!) and seeing it would only cost 80p or so a month, it really is neither here nor there. As I love using and contributing to this site and the fact doing so has already helped save me a lot of money over only a few flights/holiday bookings then it will not even be an issue for me and will no doubt easily pay for itself.

I am looking forward to all the improvments and I hope that the new membership actually makes the site a better place used by more people rather than the opposite.

Neil

...never paid a penny for any forum in my life. I thought discussions on open forum should always be free.

No worries - see ya!

I hope you have great success in finding another completely free source of information on the Internet to answer your specific questions on Austrian Airlines, Air China, "earning miles with SQ", "reaching gold without the card" and miles/TP's on Great Escapades.

Not wanting to suggest you've already received ANY value out of the site, of course...



(Oh - I believe if you ask them nicely, many accountants & solicitors are now providing free advice around the country too. Personally, I've "never paid a penny" for that sort of thing, and think it should be entirely free also. )

Paul, we have to take a stab at this, as has been said, the Mods have been chewing this over for well over a year and we have come up with a model which we hope will work, time alone will prove us right or wrong.

As Pete says if we start haemorraging members we will move very quickly to fix things but we have to do something to fund the site for today and tomorrow - the alternative is doing nothing and the site would eventually have to close.

We value your input as we do that of all members and can assure you our intention is to make the site even better than it is today but that those rewards should be, first and foremost, shared amongst the people who help contribute to the site's upkeep.

Originally posted by preiffer

...never paid a penny for any forum in my life. I thought discussions on open forum should always be free.

No worries - see ya!

And that is just bang out of order.[V]

Paul

Paul,

We do appreciate your comments. And yes, we would be thrilled to see all of our current posters continue as a contributor to V-Flyer's future. But, as our site has grown we have reached a point where we simply cannot manage the ongoing costs despite the loyalty of a much admired core group of financial supporting members. As Nottingham Nick, Pixuk (our site owner), Decker, Preiffer and now Bazz have stated quite well, we have worked and worked on this issue for a good while now, with our goal always to balance the needs of the many great folks who visit the site with the need to actually pay for site upkeep.

As we continue to add value to V-Flyer we hope you will believe that your financial contribution makes sense.

Regards,
Chuck-

Thank you to the mods/admins for being open and honest about this.

It is clear much discussion has taken place 'behind the scenes'.

I think the site will lose some contributors when it becomes subscription-based, but that is preferable to ultimate closure of the site six months down the line when it becomes financially unviable to the owners.

Incidentally, charging fees/subscriptions is more palatable/acceptable when there is perceived immediate value. For example, your current membership luggage tags, as an offset against the £10 membership fee. [Perhaps include a copy of the V-Flyer book with all 5 year subscriptions?!]

I don't think that this should come as a surprise to anyone and I don't see why people think that Pete and the mods should provide this service out of their own pocket - that's madness.

Don't the colour bands show committment to the site in monetary terms anyway if you have to buy them in order?

BTW, would it be possible to have a pop-up reminder when you near the end of your subsription.

VS.

Originally posted by Nottingham Nick


What we intend to do can be broken down into three main areas :-

WeÕll add extra forums for our Òpaid upÓ ÒClubhouseÓ members Ð including (at last) an Òoff topicÓ discussion forum in recognition of the social aspect of the site; where members can chat about anything and everything without worrying about whether a mod will lock it down as ÒOff TopicÓ.

WeÕll be cutting down on access for current non paid up members. TheyÕll be able to see less of the Òvalue addedÓ forums Ð and eventually theyÕll become purely spectators at the feast. They will still have posting rights in some forums up until 31st March 2007. People who join V-Flyer from now on will need a paid membership in order to post.

The costs of membership have been designed to make it affordable for those that simply want to join the site for a short period of time to ask questions about a flight in the near future, but also rewarding those who sign up for longer periods with big discounts. We're also changing the membership colour bands (Red, Silver, Gold & Black) so they reflect the commitment to the site rather than simple number of posts (which have, in the past, potentially been open to abuse!)


The Mods.

Will access to all these "extra" forums be open and automatic for all paid up members?
I am aware that as a member who has contributed to three membership levels in the past twelve months since joining (thus I feel demonstrating my support and commitment to the site), there are additional "forums" within the forum, (and I'm not referring to the mods/directors forums)to which I have no access/participation/engagement.
I have no issue with the concept of forum membership (as witness already), and hope that these changes will bring some balance of equity for paid members which is not purely dependent on the number of postings.

Originally posted by GrinningJackanapes

Originally posted by McCoy
Excellent point McCoy -- I would suggest v-Flyer have a very visible and compelling value proposition that includes both intellectual returns to the user as well as some sort of tangible (luggage tags, book, picture of Barry in branded hotpants, etc.).

GJ

GJ, we are trying to attract members to the site not scare them away

I will forward you a signed copy

Originally posted by GrinningJackanapes

My only complaint -- how do I donate to the site outside of membership attainment? What if I want to give more, at any time I wish to give more? Hey -- I guess I'm just a free-spending American [:p]

Roll on, v-Flyer!

GJ

Well, I can, at least, help you with that problem. The donate link is now back in the main forum listings. Please feel free to send large wads of cash. [:w]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this debate so far.

As Pete and others have said, we have been throwing the various options around for months now. Nothing is set in stone, and we will always try and we will always try and take the course that is the best for the site in the long term.

Keep the views and opinions coming, we will obviously react to the wishes of the membership, but - unless an Abramovich type sponsor (or SRB [8D] ) step in, then we have to make sure the site is as self sufficient as we can.

Nick

Originally posted by VS045

Don't the colour bands show committment to the site in monetary terms anyway if you have to buy them in order?

Yes, although the minimum post requirements did seem to encourage some to post rather, ahem, 'brief' messages. Whether this was purely to raise their post count was unproven...

Originally posted by VS045

BTW, would it be possible to have a pop-up reminder when you near the end of your subsription.

The code is a moveable feast, so yes, it is possible. In theory, PayPal should handle the subscriptions automatically, but I can look at adding some code (similar to the PM notifications, maybe), that can remind you when a subscription is about to be renewed.

Pete