Using miles whinge

Just a whinge, there is no reason for us semi frequent flyers to be loyal to Virgin anymore.

Myself and the wife have over 100,000 FC miles each so was looking to see what would be the cheapest way UC from UK to orlando in Novemebr.
Price on web site for Z fares (2 adults and one child) is 4,039.50.
So i rang up FC to see what we could do. the answer is basically Bugger all really.
her best fare as they had 'dea;s' on was...4,039.50!
What about M + M well 20,000 miles will save you 100 total! making it near but still more expensive than other rival airlines.
Ok, what about using 100,000 miles for a free seat? none available all gone!
hang on, VS16 is totally empty in UC, not one seat booked, No she says the free seats went ages ago, but nobodys booked in!
OK, how about upgrade from diferent class, no, all gone.
only option available is to have free economy seats using miles. Stuff that, I would not fly Virgin economy if it was the only airline available, I need to be able to use my knees after getting off, I don't want a meal that looks like its regurgetated pig swill and if I wanted to be treated like sh**t I would join a club specialising in this form of torture.
I can get seats on charters premier classes cheaper than Virgins 'we treat you like a dog' economy (450 to be abused, nice)
So the best price they can offer is the one available on the web site which is more than BA and Delta and United.
Of course, it would get me miles which I could add to the ones I cannot use as it is!

Of course, those with unlimted financial situation as some on this site have will say 'if you want UC, thats the price to pay', yes that is true, but what is the use of a loyalty scheme which does not work? I like may, have paid a little bit more to fly with VS than alternatives to build up the miles, which are in effect for those of us travelling certain routes, useless.

after 15 years a member of the FC, its now not worth being a member of, as prices with other airlines without even membership of their loyalty schemes, and from now on no more points whoring for me. [:(!]

Originally posted by AlanA
Virgins 'we treat you like a dog' economy

Welcome to an entirely new experience in the skies...Virgin Atlantic's new Kennel Klass!

We're not catting around this time!

You'll begin your experience by entering Terminal Three via a Norman Foster-designed doggy door, inserted into the side of the building. Travel on to the dedicated check-in desk, where a staff of obedience experts will process your reservation and beat you with a rolled-up News of the World.

Next, it's up a dog run to the amazing new Kennel Klass Klub, where an array of gourmet kibble and Hildon water awaits in food and water bowls, a grooming studio stands ready to put a pom-pom in your tail and your biological productions can be carelessly eliminated in a special dirtyard designed by one of the Queen's corgis.

Upon boarding, you'll again be beaten with a newspaper of your choice -- we have both UK and American publications! -- and shown to your ergonomically-designed crate (seat K9, perhaps?), which will then be locked behind you. We'll also offer you a complimentary flute of Bovril. Prepare to enjoy unmatched service excellence during your flight as our Kennel Klass Krew are all graduates of the Hull School of Animal Training.

During the flight, our IFBT will happily provide a scratch behind the ears, under the chin, or our patented Tummy Rubbings (TM) treatment.

Inflight cuisine is also of the highest standard, featuring raw steak-and-kidney or vegetarian options. For the diet-minded hound, we also offer lo-calorie rawhide chews.

And our IFE is second to none, with special musical channels (Three Dog Night, Dogstar) and popular films and television programs (Dog Day Afternoon, footage of Grant Mitchell walking his greyhound).

Upon arrival, trot on over to the Arrivals Lounge, where caring staff will brush out those hair tangles and other animal annoyances so common at 40,000 feet.

We invite you to experience the new level of service available on Virgin Atlantic's Kennel Klass...

You'll surely say 'bow wow...WOW!'

GJ,
thats a better service than supplied currently to economy passengers!

P.S. What was that score today??
Can't PM you GJ, but you should have had a penalty in the first half.

With the removal of the upstairs PE, I see less reasons for a leisure traveller (e.g. me) to use VS nowadays over other carriers such as BA. I use them 2-3 times a year, and as a Silver FC member, there isn't really benefit to me. The credit card 'benefits' are so restrictive I'll probably never use them, so I'm thinking of using my BA card instead.

I can see if you are a gold and travel in UC, then I could easily see the point of it all, but I'm not. [:#]

I can understand your frustration, however I think its unfortunate that you seem to have everything stacked against you, it sounds as though you are limited on dates that you can travel ? the route is popular for reward seats and the LGW aircraft have far less seats in UC than LHR thereby making the reward seat availability very limited. Not sure where you get your info about UC being empty but that is clearly not the case. Reward seats are just that, whether you use miles straight into that class or whether you upgrade.

Have you thought about LHR-MIA ? and then travelling up ? Just a thought .......

Whilst you may be very loyal to VS its a bit of a tall order to expect reward seats to be available exactly when you want them with no degree of flexibility.

My experience tells me you either need to be knocking on the door when reward seats are released or if you are looking for something sooner you need to be a little flexible.

You also clearly have a problem with VS Y ? ...... not sure when you last flew with them in Y or how many times you have.... but IMHO you comments are a little OTT ..... perhaps its just your frustration about the reward seats [;)]

Mark

Ok, what about using 100,000 miles for a free seat? none available all gone!

Alan,
Have you considered flying to Miami...
LHR Clubhouse, V-Port, IFBT, better value for your miles, plus they do have reward seats for most dates...if you get in early enough.

Only downside is the drive, but it not too far.

The problem with Miami is the six year old child we have.
Any cost savings would be lost in having to get a hotel room, as I would not want to drive up from the airport late with a very tired little lad.

Happy to fly into anywhere then down to orlando, but really don't need a long journey after a long flight with a tired fractious child, wife and me.

I had a look at the mess which was economy in December, a full Virgin economy cabin is no place to be. At 31' seat pitch maximum, nothing there has changed in the ten years since I flew that cabin, apart from teh service has reduced.

I should have said that I was flexible with no seats available on any day around.
The free seat was just one option, I foind the offer of a total of £100 total off for 20,000 miles each insulting to FC members. That makes the flight still more expensive than alternative web prices and from Virgin holidays (apart from VH does not have three UC Z fares available) for other buisness class airlines cabins, and many now have flat bed cabins available.

Have to say that, albeit in the minority of posters to this topic, I totally agree with AlanA. Even trying to use miles to upgrade from Y to PE, I was unable to find 2 seats to LAS from LGW on 3 different dates in Apr and May. However, there was an opportunity to do MpM [?] How does that work? In my experience,it is becoming increasingly difficult to succeed in obtaing miles upgrades, even when '......knocking on the door when reward seats are released' as mas66 suggested

Moving on to the Y product, once again I have to side with AlanA. Me and the present Mrs Treelo have been flying VS (mainly in the back of the bus) since 1992 and cannot immediately identify any great change for the better. And this takes into account the product as a whole from ticket desk through seating and meal offering to IFE. However, and while I have no wish to regurgitate the B&S route argument, the Y experience on other than B&S routes on which we have travelled has been far superior.

AlanA, forgive me if you are already aware, but the drive from Miami to Orlando is achievable in around 4 hours. But then, with a fractious 6-year old.....[:w]

There are others on VFlyer who have booked to MCO using miles - so it is possible but it seems you need to plan far ahead. What dates are you looking to travel btw and I'd be happy to look up availability on expert flyer?

As to MPM - I have to say this is an appalling way to burn miles. The reduction is often minimal, as you say £100 on this itinerary. 20,000 miles also gets you an upgrade from PE to UC and depending on the day and the fare this can be worth £1,500 - a huge difference.

I too have to agree with much of what Alan says about the product/service down the back on a LGW/MAN B&S route. It is not particularly good & VS are living off the reputation they once had for being an innovator in the Economy product. Better seat pitch, IFE, food and service is available from charter airlines (who admittedly fly into a different airport, further away from where most Brits going to Orlando want to be).

The crux of the problem that Alan describes is the small UC cabin on the LGW/MAN fleet - just 14 seats. I am sure I read on V-flyer that Virgin Holidays are allocated 2 UC seats per flight, so this leaves just 12 seats to sell. If VS can sell the seats for hard cash, they why give them away for free? Again, if my memory serves me right, even 2 FC Gold card holders on this forum [LRoM & LSoM] were unable to secure the returns they wanted in UC to MCO - they had to go from Gatwick one way & through MAN the other.

With regard to reward bookings, I've just accepted that I'll have to collect my miles via VS flights, the AMEX card, car hire etc & then redeem the miles on UC flights out of LHR, where thanks to the much larger UC cabin there is normally availibility as long as you are flexible on dates and book suitably early.

James

[Scrooge]

Originally posted by Kraken

The crux of the problem that Alan describes is the small UC cabin on the LGW/MAN fleet - just 14 seats.

James

I am afraid not, a couple of years ago I was trying to get two seats from the west coast to the UK, nothing open in a 3 month window, nothing, though VS were more than happy to sell me a couple of PE tickets that I may be able to upgrade at some point...We ended up booking with BA for A LOT less money and even got op upped on the flights [y]

It really is a little kick in the nuts when you cant get a couple of reward seats in a 12 week period...funny thing is the following year I had no issues getting seats.

[RichardMannion]

I'm a bit lost - was that just over £4k each or in total for two adults and a child? If its the latter then sounds about right for me. MCO is one of the cheapest Upper Class routes. I take onboard your comments about reward availability as as James correctly remembered, we had the same nonsense two years back. But then it's about compromise, we could either get a reward flight worth ~£1500 for nothing (well the taxes) and alter our dates/route slighlty, or simply cough up for the normal revenue ticket.

MpM criticism is a little unfair as their is only so much that will be cutback off the revenue portion of the fare (remember taxes will always be full and never discounted). You have to remember that there is an entire science behind all of this element as the aim of the business as it to make as much money as possible.

I don't fly economy longhaul so not placed for me to comment on the conditions, though speaking to people in the industry it's dictated again by trends. The British public on the whole look for the lowest fare; if Virgin want to innovate at all in the Y cabins where the margins are razor thin on the whole, the investment across the fleet will take time and more importantly cost money measured in the magnitude of millions. Why bother when the general masses really couldn't care and they just want to get to wherever for as cheap as possible.

Loyalty schemes aren't really just about the miles/points, they are just one aspect of it. Flying Club is far too encompassing in my opinion and it comes back to bite them when people can't always use their miles that they have earned. Depends on how you define loyalty really.

Calmed down a bit now. [:)]

Sure, I am not being as flexible as those who do not have children or can go on holiday at a whim, but I am not looking for dates within the school holidays, in fact I am looking during Virgins low season where they reduce aircraft because of slow movement of tickets (though last December the flight was totally full, hence my comments about the horror that is Economy)On Expert flyer VS15 is showing no seats occupied at all and only 6 seats in PE and 4 in econ
occupied
All classes showing 7's on VS 15
VS27 showing mostly 7's except for Z at 0 and X at 6 and N as 0
seat map showing 2 in UC, 8 in PE and 49 seats occupied.

Return
VS28 showing 7's in all classes, VS 16 all 7's with the exception of Z at 6, and N at 0
Seat plan showing VS 28 2 in UC, 10 in PE and 32 in Econ occupied
VS 16 showing only 34 in economy only.

The dates I was looking for are
29th November to 13th December 2008, after the Thanksgiving holidays and before the Christmas holidays

I have done some digging and its quite interesting between the airlines; (Yes price is for the three of us, buisness classes)
Continental BHX-NWK-MCO £8,444.40 [:D][:D]
KLM BHX-AMS-MCO £7,060
Continental LHR-NWK-MCO £6,744
US Airways £LHR-PHL-MCO 4,792
Virgin Holidays LGW-MCO £4,282.50
(Includes upgraded Premium car Chrysler 300M in that price, plus 3 seats even though they say they only have two seats in UC available normally)
Delta £4,149.27
Virgin £4,039.50
United £3,946
BA £3,897
American £3,853.60
First Choice Star Class Premium £1,940.75

Yes the FCA is not a comparison of the other 'buisness' classes, rather more like PE 36' seat pitch(But with IFE on-Demand!! and free clubhouse access)it's their highest level of service. Their seat pitch by the way in Economy is 33' http://www.firstchoice.co.uk/starclass/
Virgin PE for the same dates is £2,424.50

I am now looking at car hire to see which comes out as the best totally.

I recently returned from GOI on FCA in the Premier cabin an IMHO it was a fine PE alternative, Dedicated check in at both ends, priority boarding, and baggage (which really worked!), comfortable seat, attentive crew and not a bad menu... (Amenity kit was not bad either GJ[:)]). The AVOD worked well with noise cancelling earphones handed out and about 10 movies to choose from. Interestingly the class is still Y which I assume saves on taxes, I would be very happy to use them again for long haul travel.[y]

Well, I have added car hire of a Premium car to all the flight prices (using US Rent A Car as they seem the cheapest http://www.usrentacar.co.uk/ )
and the differences are interesting.
The cheapest is still FCA of course, by £2,098.75
but between the Buisness Class products, some with flat beds, some with old style seats (roll outs going on)
the list (showing the difference between Virgin Atlantics best price not using M +M price shown is total difference)is as follows, cheapest to VA:
American £185
BA £142.50
United £93.50
VH £61.00

all others are more expensive.

Jus a quickquestion for those who are in the know, can you get the FC 10% discount off VH fly-drives?
if so that reduces the cost via VH to £3854.25

Unfortunately, I have to echo AlanA's sentiments re reward flights.
This is the route I do 3 times a year and try to use the free companion flight in P/E (there are 3 of us).
I try to book as soon as the flights come out - and keep a check on the dates / website to ensure I am first in.
For October 2008 (around the half term) there was nothing on the return available. At first I was told it was not released, then all gone, but they didn't seem to know which. Can't beleive it was all gone as I was 'first in'. I was also VERY flexible on the dates, but there was nothing for the whole of November return.
This lack of availability was also applicable to Miami. We have ended up booking P/E to MCO and are returning via JFK (with a connecting Delta flight).
We too have over 300k miles and nothing was available in U/C either.
I accept it is a very popular route (I have never seen a half empty plane on thsi route), but to have zero availability is somewhat irritating.

PS agree re USrentacar. Always seem to be the cheapest - especially when they do a free upgrade from a Full-size to an SUV.

[Darren Wheeler]

I don't think it is a simp,e case of no availability. VS know they can easily fill the LGW-MCO UCS many times over and won't 'give' one away when they can sell it, especially at busy times like school holidays.

As for being 'first in', I can guarantee you'll not be the only one waiting for the 330 day rule to pass and unless you keep checking right up to the second they are released, there is always a chance someone quicker on the mouse will get it, especially if there is on one per flight. I booked my G to SFO when I was on nights and checked all night until it popped up.

I had a look at VS to Miamai, total cost £7,151.80 for the same dates!

Originally posted by AlanA
Jus a quickquestion for those who are in the know, can you get the FC 10% discount off VH fly-drives?
if so that reduces the cost via VH to £3854.25

Yes you can. If you do it over the phone, they can apply your 10% immediately. If you book online you enter your FC number and call to get the 10% applied later. They will send you a revised invoice (or 3!).

Originally posted by flyingfox
(Amenity kit was not bad either GJ[:)]).

[:I]

GJ

Alan,

Just a thought, as we were in a similar predicament. Why not book VS reward flights to New York (for only 90K) and then get internal Continental flights Business to MCO. We're doing this in October (albeit in PE) and there was stacks of availability even in UC. I've checked your dates and there is plenty of availability/options.

We're going out on VS17 staying overnight in the onsite Marriott at EWR then getting a CO flight at 10 the following morning to MCO which arrives about 12.45 which is 3 hours before the VS flight we would have used and no immigration queues.

On the return leg we're spending a few days in New York to break up the trip and then home. In line with your sentiments we have now pretty much spent all our miles and have decided that in future any flights we take will be based on value not just to collect miles.

Miopyk[8D]

thanks Miopyk,
I will have a look at that

Had the same problem trying to book miles and revenue tickets over several christmas periods (ranging between 14 and 20th dec). Our problem is that we always go on a 3 week holiday, and have to wait till the return date is available to book. Those on 2 week hols therefore get access to the outward bound miles seats earlier. That said, the last few times we used the miles to purchase single fares, therefore bagging the seats with the small risk of not getting the revenue seats on the same flight!

And these companion vouchers are just a joke. I've yet to use them, as it always turns out cheaper to purchase two seats rather than pay for one seat at a qualifying fare!

I think Alan A is being slightly harsh on Economy here. I've flown Economy on several airlines on family holidays whilst at school and independently since then (a good 5 years!) and frankly have no other choice. At our age (22 and 23) my gf and I simply cannot afford to pay for anything other than a reasonably cheap economy fare and are by and large just happy to get where we are going in relative comfort and safety!

I must say that if I was going to choose any economy class out there then Virgin would get my vote though. We flew UA economy in 2006 and it was a thoroughly miserable experience. The crew and superior entertainment on VS are a world apart.

Sure, we would love to 'turn left' and hopefully after this summer we'll have enough miles to do so, and no doubt we'll appreciate it all the more for our years 'down the back' but I think some of the snobbery towards Economy is slightly misplaced.