Gloom and doom......

Is it just me or has there been a real sense of gloom and doom on this board recently, what with the IFBT issue and the recent spate of delays and cancellations and more and more rumours about various services being cut.

Is it finally starting to sink in with some that VS are really struggling at the moment?

I know i am relatively new to this site but i must admit that there seems to be an increasing grey cloud over the whole VS brand for some people.

Personally i get the feeling that so much time and effort is being plowed into UC branding that management have rather taken their eye off the ball regarding the rest of us mere mortals who havent got a snowball in hells chance of ever reaching the rarified atmosphere of UC.

Just been flitting around on the internet and yes, as has been said before, people tend to make reviews more when something goes wrong than when they have a good experience, but the issues being raised are the same old ones time after time. Poor meals, poor IFE, poor state of cleanliness onboard, severe delays with poor ground staff, poor attitude of FA's.

I know it is expensive for airlines to have aircraft sitting idle but surely having one or two spare aircraft available to cover problems would have made more sense than risking the reputation of the brand itself time and time again.

When it comes to service onboard, is anyone really making an effort to drill it home to FA's that they are the face of VS regardless of how difficult a day they are having?

Before i get shot down in flames, let us all once again please remember we dont all have access to the lovely lounges and once on board, nice comfy suites which do make a difference when things go wrong.

Time for VS to look after the plebs a little more?????

[Neil]

I disagree, having just taken a Y flight on one of the so called less looked after routes, on one of the a/c which doesn't have the latest seats or IFE, I, and the whole of my party (who have never flown VS before)found in the main the VS product/staff to be very good. We have now flown in all 3 classes that VS offer and have experienced excellent service every time and on our most recent flights think the CC were a real credit to VS and themselves.

I think a lot of the time people spend too much time looking for/wanting problems to be there, for me, VS are still up there with the best, yes there are problems that need addressing but every business has those.

I believe it's in all the J offerings that all the doom and gloom is. In terms of Y and W things are on the up. New Y seats are to be rolled out (at least to some of the fleet), W leather is definitely going full fleet within the next year or so. And V-Port may be being expanded too. VRoom goes live next month at LGW. On the ac side finally there is movement, an A343 coming in from January (ok so it's to help with 744 refits but hey it may stay afterwards). There are mutterings of 2 more brand new A346s. And, if the rumours are to be believed, B777s may be on their way with a fat wad of compensation cash (and probably sooner than the B787s anyway).

I won't take issue with your comment about the sense of doom and gloom that seems to settle hereabouts on occasion but I think most of these relate the changes in the UC service. If you work through some of the TR's related to Premium Economy and Economy flights granted you'll see some particular instances of problems - and let's face it, unfortunately, sh*t happens - and there's always the thorny question of the levels of service and space being offered by VS (running a year round, business, leisure and cargo handling business to multiple international destinations) as against that offered by some of the small charter / holiday / business only services. Overall though I believe you'll find us plebs [:w] reasonably happy with our lot.

Paul

[Nottingham Nick]

One problem is that there are a number of people (possibly including myself) who can't help but compare things to how they used to be - pre September 11th, pre mega oil prices and all of the other problems that have beset the industry.

We also hanker for the days when, with SRB at the helm, VS was an innovater and market leader.

I agree with Neil, VS still offers and an excellent product. It is still (in my experience) a great airline to fly on, it offers an excellent frequent flier system and has some fantastic people working for it.

Yes, there are things that could be improved. Yes, there are a minority of staff that I wouldn't pay in washers. Yes, some of the decisions made by senior managers (and bean counters) have been strange, to say the least. But - and it is a big but [:I], despite reading all of the apparent doom and gloom on here, at no time have I seriously considered changing my allegiance to another carrier.

I read the Dibb, I read Flyertalk and I occasionally read a.net and the conclusion I have come to, is that the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence.

All airlines have their problems - if anyone can come up with an alternative perfect airline - please let us know. There was a lot of praise for Maxjet, there still is a lot of praise for Silverjet - Maxjet have gone and there are lots of (hopefully unfounded) concerns about Silverjet's future. Making a profit in the airline world today isn't easy. (unless, of course, you are BAA [n] ).

I have nailed my colours firmly to the VS mast, and - unless things really go down the pan, I will continue to do so.

Nick

Interesting, thoughtful and fair post Nick.

The only additional comment I would make that whilst a sense of brand loyalty is common amongst us flyers, today's culture is one of swapping loyalty at the drop of the preverbial hat. Whether it's your broadband provider, gas and electricity company or just which supermarket happens to stock your preferred brand of loo roll, it is a consumer society, which in today's marketplace is driven primarily by price, with service or 'added value' of less importance (in the UK anyway.)

My feelings regarding customer service in the UK is that it is in general atrocious because we accept it that way.

The grass certainly isn't greener, but I do hope that doesn't lead to even greater apathy amongst our society than already exists.

Originally posted by Nottingham Nick
One problem is that there are a number of people (possibly including myself) who can't help but compare things to how they used to be - pre September 11th, pre mega oil prices and all of the other problems that have beset the industry.

We also hanker for the days when, with SRB at the helm, VS was an innovater and market leader.

I agree with Neil, VS still offers and an excellent product. It is still (in my experience) a great airline to fly on, it offers an excellent frequent flier system and has some fantastic people working for it.

Yes, there are things that could be improved. Yes, there are a minority of staff that I wouldn't pay in washers. Yes, some of the decisions made by senior managers (and bean counters) have been strange, to say the least. But - and it is a big but [:I], despite reading all of the apparent doom and gloom on here, at no time have I seriously considered changing my allegiance to another carrier.

I read the Dibb, I read Flyertalk and I occasionally read a.net and the conclusion I have come to, is that the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence.

All airlines have their problems - if anyone can come up with an alternative perfect airline - please let us know. There was a lot of praise for Maxjet, there still is a lot of praise for Silverjet - Maxjet have gone and there are lots of (hopefully unfounded) concerns about Silverjet's future. Making a profit in the airline world today isn't easy. (unless, of course, you are BAA [n] ).

I have nailed my colours firmly to the VS mast, and - unless things really go down the pan, I will continue to do so.

[^][oo][^]

That post Nick pretty much sums up everything that I feel about VS.

Many go on about how much better it is with other carriers but all carriers have inconsistent products, suffer delays, have made cut backs and so on. A quick read on a.net just shows how far ahead VS is of the competition for example LH only have PTV's on a handful of a/c and United have only just introduced PTV's in its 744 and 767 fleet! VS has had PTV's in all classes since the early 90's.

Sure life is a bit tougher for VS than it is at other carriers, this is due to its size and position as a Long Haul only carrier. Making a profit was hard enough now its just a bit harder and VS is being sensible in saving a few pennies in order to ensure it stays in the market.

Nick, great post. I dont want people to think i am having a pop at any particular level of flyer on here, just there has been some rather blinkered views recently that did get my goat a little regarding perspective on things from UC.

It does make me chuckle a little that airlines do harp on about the increased level of fuel prices. I work in the oil industry and yes unless you are an oil producer, things are a little bleak but surely as a business that has such a massive exposure to probably the most volatile industry cost wise, provisions should have been made financially to cover or at least minimise this issue especially with passengers paying an additional duty on top of ticket prices to help out. Isnt it about time the increased fuel price was reflected simply in the ticket cost and not as a subsidy?

I admit, other carriers have a lot to learn from VS but the case is the same with VS, we as passengers should complain more about poor service onboard, it is the only way to weed out porr customer facing staff, mind you a decent customer services team would help at the other end of things, the whole call centre issue is a hot potato that is going to last for a long time i think.

As for aircraft, it still makes me wonder why VS didnt just go with the new 747-8 when the A380 went from bad to worse delivery wise, stick to tried and tested surely in difficult times?

Anyway, i will continue flying VS regardless, maybe this is the real crux of the problem. The Company know they have a loyal customer base regardless of what happens.[:(]

Originally posted by wanderingmariner


As for aircraft, it still makes me wonder why VS didnt just go with the new 747-8 when the A380 went from bad to worse delivery wise, stick to tried and tested surely in difficult times?

I think its important to remember that when VS went with the 380 the relationship with Airbus was exceptionally strong and thus they probably got a rather nice deal on the babies.

Of course it came as no surprise that when the tender went out for the LGW 744 replacement that the 748 was the firm favourite, although all has now quiet on that front.

Yes, with 380s now coming in and getting massive thumbs up from PAX and airlines witnessing PAX choosing to pay extra to travel in the 380 mainly for the quiet cabin, the 748i seems to be quietly dying. Still only 1 PAX airline has placed an order and that's with the production line beginning to tool up. It seems at the moment that it will be a success but only in freighters. VS could quickly pick up some 744s such as 3 at Oasis which are the same model incl engines as the VS 744 fleet.

Firstly, I never flown in any other class other than Economy (well, except for one op-upgrade)

I've mentioned it before, in today's climate, PAX in Y have a choice of airlines to go with if cost is the most important criteria.

If PAX don't like VS product then they can go with a different airline. I alway remind myself when I'm flying in Y of to expect the minimium from the flight anything else is a bonus!.

However, I will always look to VS when planning a trip, as I think one of the biggest assets is the Cabin Crew. I know a lot of the guys who post on this site who would differ but I've never (touch wood) had a bad experience with CC in Y. Unlike all the other airlines I've used, BA, UA, CO, Easyjet etc,etc.

It was very interesting to read Neil's TR to MCO, for a UCS regular to experience the depths of the back of the plane.[:D]

As for doom and gloom, my position can be summarised simply: I wish that Virgin lived up to its brand potential in all classes. And that many of its failings could be resolved not with huge injections of cash, but modest injections of empathetic intelligence.

Originally posted by frangipan
As for doom and gloom, my position can be summarised simply: I wish that Virgin lived up to its brand potential in all classes. And that many of its failings could be resolved not with huge injections of cash, but modest injections of empathetic intelligence.

Does it not live up to its brand potential?!

After all it offer a world class product throughout all its cabins.

A world class product in all classes? Maybe at the front of the plane yeah. But if you look at Y (esp LGW and MAN), then VS have one of the more dated product available. Fly with any of the UAE airlines or SQ for example and you will learn how to make Y customers feel like they had a pleasant flight!! Better IFE, comfortable seats, good food. Best thing about VS Y is the crew.

Originally posted by musicmanbrain
A world class product in all classes? Maybe at the front of the plane yeah. But if you look at Y (esp LGW and MAN), then VS have one of the worst products available. Fly with any of the UAE airlines or SQ for example and you will learn how to make Y customers feel like they had a pleasant flight!! Better IFE, comfortable seats, good food. Only good thing about VS Y is the crew.

Now I fly Y mostly and I still believe that VS has a great product.

To illustrate this:

DL: Charge for alcoholic drinks, no IFE on vast majority of routes ex UK.
EK: Better IFE but seats are crammed into Y at 10 across on the 777 instead of the industry standard 9.
LH: No IFE at all in Y.
UA: Charge for alchoholic drinks, no IFE on 747's.
QF: Only just upgraded to PTV's throughout the cabin
US: NO IFE on most flights ex UK, pay for headphones, pay for all alcohol including wine with meal.
IB: No IFE

Really on VS ex LGW/MAN all that is currently missing is V:Port, the current offering is also a lot better than what other carriers offer.

I am failing to see how the product offered ex LGW/MAN is worse on VS than other rivals. Food is hit and miss on any carrier, heck I have had some awful meals on SQ.

Ex LHR VS in on a par with SQ, EK, QR, NZ etc.

'"I know it is expensive for airlines to have aircraft sitting idle but surely having one or two spare aircraft available to cover problems would have made more sense than risking the reputation of the brand itself time and time again.'
Sorry to say but i don't know of ANY major airlines that do this!! The only difference is that bigger airlines can roll a defective airline during the day

I can honestly say I have never had a bad flight with VS in Y , PE and sadly only two in UC. I have experienced a few problems

cancellation travelling Y from JFK-LHR but re-routed with no fuss (was offered either BA or VS)

broken IFE in PE from Tokyo to LHR, 5000 miles and drinks from UC (in proper glasses)

However I have not come across any bad crew. Admittedly I only flew with VS once a year or so and was going on holiday.

However I can now understand why the regular fliers can, not knock the service, but notice failings and comment on them. For the last 8 weeks I have been working part time in Brisbane and fly up and down from Melbourne with QF. I am a regular and now notice when things are different (cabin lights not turned down for landing etc). However I have to say the QF service is extremely consistent - I only fly Y and am always welcomed by name, either at the gate or on board, and more often than not both - amongst other things. I have not done TRs for they would all be pretty much identical apart from the dates.

Without knocking anyone I have noticed the QF crews are generally older and imho experienced and this shows in the consistency of service provided. We are off down to Hobart tonight with DJ and back with JQ and it will be interesting to see the comparison (and I know I am not comparing like with like - however DJ are in direct competition with QF).

I think, possibly, some of the cc criticism I have read in this forum may come from their age and resultant inexperience resulting in less consistent service. This is not a dig at those younger than me but an observation/personal opinion. I for one could not do their role.

If I was still living in the UK I would pick VS as my airline of choice - rather limited route availability here though!!

I have come accross bad crew on three occaisions, however it must be said it was the same 'two' people that were on those flights with 18momths between two of them, just my luck. In balance I have had fantastic crew on 22 flights...so[:?]

The doom and gloom aspect is really from people who want to travel in Upper or continue to do so and keep it as special as we remember it to be, lets face it our ticket money does go some way to subsidizing those bargain fares in economy and late deals. When we look at the prices and whats included in the 'Virgin Bumf' or once glossy leaflets that are now covered in felt tip and snot and god nows what we like to think ok we will pay between 3 and 7 times more than economy and we WOULD like to use that attractive bar ( that they sem to have forgot to put the flowers on oh and the smiling lady handing the drink over isn't there either ), we would like our little amenity pack with the initially fabulous pen or little trinket included ( oh yes thats gone ), We would like to use the dedicated toilet to change or freshen up, as oppposed to be held back by some parent from PE with a grimmace who want to let her kids play in there and why should you have your own loo anyway ( because the UC ones didn't stink untill recently thats why ) We would like our suite NOT to have food all over it, NOT to have to clean the grime and grease off our own tv screen NOT to be afraid to put our hands in the pockets of the suite for fear of snotty tissues and other stuff that has been left by the previous passenger. And oh yes to be able to eat when we want rather than just have the little table cloth flapped in front of us and to actually be able to have whats on the menu, come on VA there aren't that many UCS suites.

Seems to me the PE section is getting rather a lot of attention and looks good to me ( though be warned it will be the same price as a 'Z' soon as standard ).

As far as EC, people who want to get to the states and back for under £250 shouldn't expect much, but the full fare payers in that cabin should get whats advertised.

I haven't flown VS since 2006; BA twice last year, the last time LHR-LAX and return 1st & BC

I was speaking with a friend in the US who travels internationally on a very regular basis

With our impending trip, I mentioned the amount of negative comments I have found regarding VS to her; she is a true fan of VS and has used PE & UC on countless occasions to traverse the Atlantic and beyond

Her words were thus:-

'We recently flew Virgin/Atlantic. Have to admit, that it wasn't as great as I'd expected it to be. It wasn't what I could call awful...but it wasn't as nice as the experience I'd had flying Virgin in the past.'

It appears that VS service worldwide is suffering ...

Originally posted by easygoingeezer
As far as EC, people who want to get to the states and back for under £250 shouldn't expect much, but the full fare payers in that cabin should get whats advertised.

I can't see how this would work without creating another class of travel, or paring the service back to nothing and everyone paying for meals, IFE etc. As it is now it's up to the revenue managers of the airline to determine what price to sell the tickets and if the consumer gets a good deal, all to the good. There's no law that says airlines *must* 'subsidise' or provide low cost EC travel; they choose to so to manage revenue to their best advantage.

If I book far enough in advance for my flights to and from EDI, I get a round trip for £100; get the timing wrong, and it can be £250. I don't expect a different service when I pay the latter amount. If I luck upon a half price ticket for a front row seat in a London theatre I don't expect to be handed an eyepatch so I can only see 'half the show'.

Full fare payers in that cabin are getting a different service - flexibility / upgradeability of ticket.

Paul

Originally posted by pjh

Originally posted by easygoingeezer
As far as EC, people who want to get to the states and back for under £250 shouldn't expect much, but the full fare payers in that cabin should get whats advertised.

I can't see how this would work without creating another class of travel, or paring the service back to nothing and everyone paying for meals, IFE etc. As it is now it's up to the revenue managers of the airline to determine what price to sell the tickets and if the consumer gets a good deal, all to the good. There's no law that says airlines *must* 'subsidise' or provide low cost EC travel; they choose to so to manage revenue to their best advantage.

If I book far enough in advance for my flights to and from EDI, I get a round trip for £100; get the timing wrong, and it can be £250. I don't expect a different service when I pay the latter amount. If I luck upon a half price ticket for a front row seat in a London theatre I don't expect to be handed an eyepatch so I can only see 'half the show'.

Full fare payers in that cabin are getting a different service - flexibility / upgradeability of ticket.

Paul

The point I was trying to illustrate was the people who scream and berate VA because there are no £250 return tickets and how terrible and disgusting VA is, think that anyone in a premium seat is a snooty snob, laugh at people that have had to pay £600/800 for their 'Y' treat the cabin crew like galley slaves and drink the bar dry, people that pay bargain basement 'loss leader' fares tend to moan the loudest and shouldn't imho. I paid £130 to get the train to London so £125 to get from UK to the States with some free booze and food isn't to be sniffed at.

Originally posted by easygoingeezer
The point I was trying to illustrate was the people who scream and berate VA because there are no £250 return tickets and how terrible and disgusting VA is, think that anyone in a premium seat is a snooty snob, laugh at people that have had to pay £600/800 for their 'Y' treat the cabin crew like galley slaves and drink the bar dry, people that pay bargain basement 'loss leader' fares tend to moan the loudest and shouldn't imho. I paid £130 to get the train to London so £125 to get from UK to the States with some free booze and food isn't to be sniffed at.

Ah, wrong-end-of-stick-grasping on my part [:I]. Fully agree.

Paul

Originally posted by easygoingeezer
The point I was trying to illustrate was the people who scream and berate VA because there are no £250 return tickets and how terrible and disgusting VA is, think that anyone in a premium seat is a snooty snob, laugh at people that have had to pay £600/800 for their 'Y' treat the cabin crew like galley slaves and drink the bar dry, people that pay bargain basement 'loss leader' fares tend to moan the loudest and shouldn't imho. I paid £130 to get the train to London so £125 to get from UK to the States with some free booze and food isn't to be sniffed at.

As someone uses Y, I agree with your sentiments. If you paid cheap then you should only expect a service in line with what you've paid, anything else is a welcome bonus. If a person is expecting PE/J service then they shouldn't be whinging but pay for it or go to another carrier.

Originally posted by DarkAuror
As someone uses Y, I agree with your sentiments. If you paid cheap then you should only expect a service in line with what you've paid, anything else is a welcome bonus. If a person is expecting PE/J service then they shouldn't be whinging but pay for it or go to another carrier.

This is very astute - and may I also add something here? Despite rising costs over the past twenty years, and much more recently rising oil prices, discounted Y airfares have remained roughly static. Consider the a Y LON-NYC-LON ticket that's been waivering about the £200 mark plus taxes for as long as I can remember.

The only way this can happen is if something gives, and I am sure that that 'something' is going to be in the service department. Whether it be fewer crew (and therefore impaired cart service) or the introduction of charging for booze as some carriers have done.

But also some things have improved, most noteably IFE.

We may well complain, but to be fair, in the context of air travel, there's never been so much choice and value for money down the back as there is now.

H

I agree, there are plenty of NYC flights for £250-£300 with various of sales around, it's a case of being flexible with your dates.

It does annoy me when you do get some pax, who have paid a cheap fare for a Y seat and expect a PE/J service. You know the ones I mean, the ones who keep pressing their call button and expect the Cabin Crew to be at their beck and call.

I just wished VS go to Seattle, as it looks like I'm going to have go with another carrier, well, for at least some of the way.