Denied boarding with approved esta

Hi, has this happened to anyone else? Sorry it’s a long one!

Family of 5 travelling to Miami, 4 on VS and myself on AA (15 mins after VS flight) as needed to burn some miles due to MBNA dropping ability to earn miles.

We tried checking in online for flight to Miami the night before we travelled but online checking said one of my children couldn’t be checked in online. We therefore decided to get to the airport earlier the next day and all checkin at the desk. We arrived at check in desk at 7.20.

The next morning the checkin staff at the check in kiosk also wasn’t able to check in my son saying he didn’t have a valid esta and also my daughter didn’t either!

I knew we’d renewed estas a year ago for last years xmas trip so couldn’t understand why 2 of my kids estas werent valid. I then realised that my kids passports had to be renewed 2 years ago(as kids passports need renewing every 5 years)so at that time I must have renewed their estas and therefore were still valid for last years trip but no longer valid as 2 years has now passed. On checking our current valid esta group booking it confirmed it only covered 3 of our family.

The check staff took us to a computer where we frantically applied for 2 estas for the kids.

The “authorisation approved” esta status came through at 8am and the flight was due to take off at 10.10.

We went back to the check in kiosk but the lady there said as we’d only just got the approved esta that we’d have to go to the bag drop desk and staff would have to check us in manually as we’d need to show them proof of approved esta (which we did).

So we went to bag drop where they began checkin of 4 of my family members (as mentioned above I was flying AA on a departure 15 mins after the VS departure time). They took bags and managed to checkin my wife and another daughter who already had a valid esta). Unfortunately when it then came to my 2 kids whose esta had just been approved checkin staff were still saying there was no valid esta. I explained that the lady at kiosk said we just needed to show on our phones that esta had been approved. Staff just kept saying the checkin system had to say whether we had esta or not and the fact it showed approved on the homelands security system and my phone meant absolutely nothing. The check in staff member who assisted us previously with sorting the estas reassured us that everything would be fine and that even if we didn’t make the first VS flight that there was plenty of availability on the later flight.

On googling this issue there were many threads (related to BA and other airlines but didn’t see any for virgin) which said checkin staff just needed to phone someone to get checkin system to reflect correct esta status for recently approved estas if they weren’t showing.The checkin staff member kept retrying checkin every so often in between wandering around the checkin desk area rather than phoning anyone,though I kept saying they should phone someone. 1hr past while they were doing this and it got to 9.20 when staff said we needed to decide whether to let the 2 already checked in family members to fly and that hopefully the issue would be rectified before the afternoon flight. Again he said there was availability on the later flight, so we decided 2 family members should take the 10.10.

At 9.40 the check in staff finally decided to phone someone after us insisting when the last checkin attempt failed. As soon as he put the phone down checkin was successful and esta was valid. They should have done this at 8am as we kept asking.

We finally think everything’s ok then he says there’s only 1 seat left on later flight! so I had to make my way to AA desk to cancel my AA flight and get my bags taken off so I could stay with my kids and book us all on the next available flight as I couldn’t just leave 17 year old in uk on her own.

After cancelling my AA flight then went to the VS ticketing desk to try and book next available flight for the 3 of us. To my shock the VS ticket desk said we could all be booked on the next Mia flight as there was availability!

So to cut a long story short I then end up having to handover £1800 (a new flight for me at £1500 and £300 for the difference in price on the new flight for the kids) to get us on the 13.15 because VS checkin staff couldn’t validate an esta that was approved at 8am for a 10.10 flight and the checkin staff saying there was only 1 seat free. Had he said there were 2 seats free I would have taken my original AA flight and therefore not had to spend a further £1500 for my new ticket.

There were also 3 others in the same boat behind us at the ticket desk who got rebooked on the 13.15

Showing your approval email cuts no mustard. Airlines must rely on the 'marker' coming back from the CBP that you have a valid ESTA before you can board.

CBP is also tightening up on ESTA approvals and very shortly you must have applied at least 72 hours before your flight. They also won't be doing instant approvals (so no more applying at the airport).

Whilst VS staff could have handled this better it does come down to you not checking you all had valid ESTAs.

I'd also say that ticket availability can and does change dynamically so yes when you initially asked there could have been only one ticket available but the next time 3 as all it would take is for two last minute cancellations to happen.

[mitchja]

The ESTA rules changed recently to no longer longer allow 'instant' approvals who anyone checking in at at the airport who doesn't have a valid ESTA.

All ESTA applications now have to be submitted and approved at least 72 hours before departure.

There's a red banner at the top of the official ESTA application page stating the following:

REMINDER: Apply for ESTA no later than 72 hours before departing for the United States. Real-time approvals will no longer be available and arriving at the airport without a previously approved ESTA will likely result in being denied boarding.

The ESTA rules changed recently to no longer longer allow 'instant' approvals who anyone checking in at at the airport who doesn't have a valid ESTA.

All ESTA applications now have to be submitted and approved at least 72 hours before departure.

There's a red banner at the top of the official ESTA application page stating the following:

REMINDER: Apply for ESTA no later than 72 hours before departing for the United States. Real-time approvals will no longer be available and arriving at the airport without a previously approved ESTA will likely result in being denied boarding.

I understand that reminder is saying real-time approvals won’t be available so don’t expect to get approval by applying at airport , but our esta was approved at 8am so we weren’t now trying to check in without a previously approved esta.

[mitchja]

It was still less than 72 hours before departure which is the crux here now unfortunately.

All ESTA applications should have always been submitted at least 72 hours before departure, but unto now the US CBP have been lenient on anyone who missed that window and allowed it to be done right up to the time of departure.

That 72 hour grace period before departure has now gone and all ESTA applications have to be submitted and come back as approved at least 72 hours before the flight depart time. Any which are not will be denied boarding unfortunately.

It was still less than 72 hours before departure which is the crux here now unfortunately.

All ESTA applications should have always been submitted at least 72 hours before departure, but unto now the US CBP have been lenient on anyone who missed that window and allowed it to be done right up to the time of departure.

That 72 hour grace period before departure has now gone and all ESTA applications have to be submitted and come back as approved at least 72 hours before the flight depart time. Any which are not will be denied boarding unfortunately.

I’ve not found anywhere that states that you now have to wait until 3 days after esta has been approved before boarding a flight. Where did you get that info?

[mitchja]

From the ESTA FAQ's page:

WHAT IS THE ELECTRONIC SYSTEM FOR TRAVEL AUTHORIZATION (ESTA)?

.........ESTA approval authorizes a traveler to board a carrier for travel to the United States under the VWP. Private carriers must be a signatory visa waiver program carrier. See list of Signatory Carriers. CBP recommends that you apply for ESTA at the time you book your travel, but no less than 72 hours prior to boarding.

From the ESTA FAQ's page:

WHAT IS THE ELECTRONIC SYSTEM FOR TRAVEL AUTHORIZATION (ESTA)?

.........ESTA approval authorizes a traveler to board a carrier for travel to the United States under the VWP. Private carriers must be a signatory visa waiver program carrier. See list of Signatory Carriers. CBP recommends that you apply for ESTA at the time you book your travel, but no less than 72 hours prior to boarding.

That only refers to the recommendation to apply 72hrs prior to boarding. You mentioned that you have to wait 72hrs after it’s approved before boarding?

[mitchja]

Basically yes.

You have to have ESTA approval (which isn't always instant) no less than 72 hours before your scheduled departure time.

This has always been the case with an ESTA.

Until recently, however, that 72 hour rule has never been fully enforced and the CBP have accepted ESTA applications within that 72 hour window before travel right up to airport check-in.

This is no longer than case and the 72 hour rule is now been fully enforced (I believe it started about Dec 14th) and so, if you don't have ESTA approval now at least 72 hours before you depart, boarding will be denied.

Basically yes.

You have to have ESTA approval (which isn't always instant) no less than 72 hours before your scheduled departure time.

This has always been the case with an ESTA.

Until recently, however, that 72 hour rule has never been fully enforced and the CBP have accepted ESTA applications within that 72 hour window before travel right up to airport check-in.

This is no longer than case and the 72 hour rule is now been fully enforced (I believe it started about Dec 14th) and so, if you don't have ESTA approval now at least 72 hours before you depart, boarding will be denied.

If that is the case then surely they should now put a message up that states you should not purchase an airline ticket for travel within the next 3 days as you will be denied boarding even with an approved esta.

Just admit that you made a mistake. You'll feel better then. Nobody's fault but yours. Imagine if you'd had to go on the Wamos 747 too, doesn't bear thinking about.

If that is the case then surely they should now put a message up that states you should not purchase an airline ticket for travel within the next 3 days as you will be denied boarding even with an approved esta.

No because that would be incorrect information.

If you have an existing, valid ESTA obtained more than 72 hours pre departure you can buy a ticket right up to departure.

That's not the same as applying for an ESTA within that time.

The issue you had with part of your group was the ESTAs were obtained so close to departure that the CBP system didn't send VS the marker in time for the original flight that OKd them to travel. That can happen with any airline.

The US have allowed instant approvals even though their advice was always to get one more than 72 hours before the departure time. They have simply reverted to implementing their original rule.

Just admit that you made a mistake. You'll feel better then. Nobody's fault but yours. Imagine if you'd had to go on the Wamos 747 too, doesn't bear thinking about.

Yes I made a mistake not checking the kids estas before hand but the fact according to the us esta website that we had approved estas at 8am for a 10.10 flight should count for something. Also the fact the esta came back approved on the check in system less than 1 minute after the checkin staff contacted the IT guys (I assume to refresh their system with up to date info) should count for something.

If that is the case then surely they should now put a message up that states you should not purchase an airline ticket for travel within the next 3 days as you will be denied boarding even with an approved esta.

No because that would be incorrect information.

If you have an existing, valid ESTA obtained more than 72 hours pre departure you can buy a ticket right up to departure.

That's not the same as applying for an ESTA within that time.

The issue you had with part of your group was the ESTAs were obtained so close to departure that the CBP system didn't send VS the marker in time for the original flight that OKd them to travel. That can happen with any airline.

The US have allowed instant approvals even though their advice was always to get one more than 72 hours before the departure time. They have simply reverted to implementing their original rule.

So are you saying the other poster is incorrect stating you have to have had an approved esta 72hrs before departure then?

I got an instant approval at 8am so they haven’t reverted to implementing their orginal rule - it’s just that the Vs checkin system obviously isn’t referencing real-time data so required the check in staff to call IT to do a refresh. Once this was done we were able to board the later flight. My issue is with the checkin staff wasting 1.5hrs before making that call!

Seeing “approved “ on your application does not have to mean that CBP have issued the notification to the system carriers. That may be another process. I imagine the 72 hour thing is to allow time for all the back office stuff to happen.

Whilst this is of no help to you, I can understand you being peeved with this situation. I’m not sure you’ll have much luck with any compensation due to the new rules, but I’d personally try my luck. Until it categorically states you need approval 72 hours before a flight, I’m siding with your thoughts of incompetence and VS’s lack of making it ultra clear. I’m generally not a huge fan of the compensation culture but I could have easily found myself in your situation simply from not knowing. I would expect nothing and if even if you get miles, I’d be happy, as ultimately, this would have been ultimately “our” problem. Thanks for raising by the way, I tend to check and sort mine the day before!

The CBP released a media news statement on 11/12/2018 to say the rules where changing about instant approvals but it clearly says here;

Applicants who apply on the same day of their flight’s departure risk not having an approved ESTA prior to their scheduled departure. International travelers without an approved ESTA will not be authorized to board their flight.

I.e “risk” not having an approved esta prior to departure. Our estas were approved at 8am for a 10.10 flight. So clearly that statement doesn’t state approvals can’t be granted same day, its just they are warning you they might take 72hrs for approval to come through.



Here’s the full text;
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/national-m ... hours-esta

Due to changes in ESTA application processing, real-time approvals will no longer be available. Citizens of participating Visa Waiver Program (VWP) countries traveling to the United States are strongly encouraged to apply for an ESTA at the time of booking their trip and no later than 72 hours prior to departure. Applicants who apply on the same day of their flight’s departure risk not having an approved ESTA prior to their scheduled departure. International travelers without an approved ESTA will not be authorized to board their flight.


There is no info for how long you should wait after approval before booking a flight or turning up at the airport to board a plane. Which implies there isn’t a separate wait period after approval granted

I don’t know how Esta approvals are available to airlines. I imagine CBP maintain a database that airlines can query, based on the passengers on their flights. How often airlines can and do query this database I don’t know. From the facts related here it seems VS could have updated their Esta information but didn’t.

OK: as I understand it, at some point before departure airlines submit passenger lists to CBP which comes back with a yes or no for each passenger.

The key point is the CBP checks are not carried out in real time at the moment you check in. So when VS submitted the passenger list, the OP will have been rejected as they didn’t, at that point, have a valid ESTA.

OP’s argument is that, having been approved for an ESTA between VS submitting the passenger list and check-in closing, VS should have called CBP to obtain permission to fly based on their newly acquired ESTA status.

So what this case boils down to is whether VS should have done more to get the CBP rejection overturned, or whether VS was right to deny boarding as it’s the passenger’s responsibility to have a valid ESTA at the point it submits the passenger list and the OP did not.

OK: as I understand it, at some point before departure airlines submit passenger lists to CBP which comes back with a yes or no for each passenger.

The key point is the CBP checks are not carried out in real time at the moment you check in. So when VS submitted the passenger list, the OP will have been rejected as they didn’t, at that point, have a valid ESTA.

OP’s argument is that, having been approved for an ESTA between VS submitting the passenger list and check-in closing, VS should have called CBP to obtain permission to fly based on their newly acquired ESTA status.

So what this case boils down to is whether VS should have done more to get the CBP rejection overturned, or whether VS was right to deny boarding as it’s the passenger’s responsibility to have a valid ESTA at the point it submits the passenger list and the OP did not.

We were asking checkin agent to ring someone as the general responses to a google search showed that was what was needed for a recent esta approval. The agent finally decided to ring someone 1hr later after it was too late to board original flight. And within seconds of the phone call the checkin system then reflected the approved status.

Without knowing the exact time when VS submit passenger list for the flight we’d won’t know if we missed the deadline. All I can say is the passenger list must be submitted close to flight time otherwise we’d not have been successfully able to fly on the 13.15 flight having only purchased the tickets less than 2hrs before the flight.

It seems to me possible that what happened here is a mixture of incompetence and confusion at both CBP and at VS.

But a thought occurs - if VS can see that a passenger on a flight that has had its manifest checked for EST approval hasn’t got an approved Esta - why not contact them? A simple text of email. In fact checking the manifest at say T - 96 and alerting relevant passengers might save a lot of headaches alround.
Presumably carriers can check against the CBP approvals list anytime up to boarding closing, otherwise last minute bookings for Esta approved passengers would not be possible.

[mitchja]

But a thought occurs - if VS can see that a passenger on a flight that has had its manifest checked for EST approval hasn’t got an approved Esta - why not contact them? A simple text of email. In fact checking the manifest at say T - 96 and alerting relevant passengers might save a lot of headaches alround.
Presumably carriers can check against the CBP approvals list anytime up to boarding closing, otherwise last minute bookings for Esta approved passengers would not be possible.

It's not that straight forward unfortunately as airlines don't know their passengers immigration status. There are several valid reasons as to why someone wouldn't have an ESTA i.e. if they have have a full US VISA or passengers with dual nationality / traveling on a US passport etc.

Also the airlines don't always have contact details for passengers especially if they have booked via a travel agent.

But a thought occurs - if VS can see that a passenger on a flight that has had its manifest checked for EST approval hasn’t got an approved Esta - why not contact them? A simple text of email. In fact checking the manifest at say T - 96 and alerting relevant passengers might save a lot of headaches alround.
Presumably carriers can check against the CBP approvals list anytime up to boarding closing, otherwise last minute bookings for Esta approved passengers would not be possible.

It's not that straight forward unfortunately as airlines don't know their passengers immigration status. There are several valid reasons as to why someone wouldn't have an ESTA i.e. if they have have a full US VISA or passengers with dual nationality / traveling on a US passport etc.

Also the airlines don't always have contact details for passengers especially if they have booked via a travel agent.

Like Stevebrass, I’d have thought it’s something VS could check ahead of time.

BA are able to report back to their customers that try to check in online 24hrs before the flight that online checkin has failed for them due to no valid ESTA being found.

All we got when trying trying to check in online 24hrs before was that one of my children would have do checkin at airport and not to worry lol.

It must be very straightforward to check ahead of time as they do the check when you try online check in and also at the desk. They know who is from the uk and has British passport. They could simple follow BAs stance and warn at online checkin that can’t find a esta and maybe a message that says you’ll need one if you don’t have a us visa.

[mitchja]

It's no use informing you at online check-in though is it as that's generally T-24 hours which is now too late to apply for an ESTA as it's under the now enforced 72 hour limit before you travel.

It's no use informing you at online check-in though is it as that's generally T-24 hours which is now too late to apply for an ESTA as it's under the now enforced 72 hour limit before you travel.

There’s no enforced rule! It’s simply saying you’d best apply 72hrs before as you risk not getting approved esta otherwise, as they no longer do real-time. I.e they can approve it between 1 minute or 72hrs after applying. Again the 72hrs refers to applying time and NOT that it has to have been approved for 72hrs prior to flying.

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/national-m ... hours-esta

A
Due to changes in ESTA application processing, real-time approvals will no longer be available. Citizens of participating Visa Waiver Program (VWP) countries traveling to the United States are strongly encouraged to apply for an ESTA at the time of booking their trip and no later than 72 hours prior to departure.

Applicants who apply on the same day of their flight’s departure risk not having an approved ESTA prior to their scheduled departure. International travelers without an approved ESTA will not be authorized to board their flight.