V-Flyer

I've travelled with VH once before to Orlando and they were excellent. I've also travelled with VA 4 times and always had good experience (all booked through Expedia though). At the end of the last year though my g/f and I booked a £3000 holiday to leave on 2nd September for a prepacked flydrive tour around the west coast. Its the King of the Road tour which goes LA, Palm Springs, Lake Havasu, Grand Canyon, Las Vegas, Yosemite and San Fran, all over 16 days. We have been saving for this holiday for a loooong time and based on our previous experience of Virgin were quite happy to book with them.

We now realise this was the worst mistake we ever made. One of the key reasons we booked this holiday as opposed to other tour operators or building our own on Expedia was that Virgin would provide directions and maps for the tour as part of the package. Sounded great so end of last year we booked the holiday and while booking it upgraded one of the hotels from the Mandalay Bay in Vegas to THEHotel at Mandalay. All good, holiday booked!

2 weeks after we booked the holiday Virgin phone us up saying they had given us the wrong price for the hotel and had to charge us £250 extra! We said no as if you have given us the wrong price thats your problem not ours. They were extreamly rude and just said no you have to pay else we will move you back to the original hotel. As we already had a confirmation from them with the correct hotel on them I refused to do this and they just wouldn't listen and said they would check and call us back later. They never did. Over the next 3 days between me and my girlfriend we spent over 7hrs on hold at different times before getting through. We explained that that couldn't do this if it was there mistake and they we can and we will so we asked to speak to a supervisor and the chap "I am the supervisor!" At this point I said we will take it up with Trading Standards and the chap on the phone said "they will agree with us so can we have your credit card details again please to charge you the difference!!!" At this point we hung up and called Trading Standards. TS totally agreed with what we were saying and gave us a reference number to quote to VH saying if they did not accept there mistake that TS would be happy to put forward a case. 4 more hours on hold and when we finally got through VH again wouldn't accept it. When we eventually said here is the case reference from Trading Standards they suddenly oh sorry out mistake and confirmed the correct hotel at the original price.

We thought this was the end of our hassles but no. The other day our tickets turned up but no maps! This is a key part of the holiday so we rang VH up and after 3hrs on hold on Saturday we spoke to a lady who could barely speak english who said they would send our maps out for delivery Monday.

Wednesday came and still no maps so I rang them up again last night. 1hr on hold I got through and explained it again. They had no record of the first call and said he couldn't request anything we had to call another number. I said no, I was sick of being on hold and his answer was "well is doesn't take long". After much arguing he agreeded to make a note on the system and gave me another number which he said was closed now else he could put me though. Funny then as once I hung up I called the number and got straight through. This was current bookings, pre flight enquires. I explained the situation and he told me to call the original number!!!! I said no and he said do you want to make a complaint! I said no I just want the maps I was promised to which they replied we don't deal with

that here. At this point I said "if we don't receive the maps by Friday then I will be raising a formal complaint and will be requesting a refund against part of the holiday as you have not held up your agreement to provide the maps." He then agreed to raise the request for the maps to have them sent by Friday. I still doubt this will happen.

Why are VH so poor at Customer Services now? I just get the impression from you they don't want you talking to them as they are just rude and unhelpful and try to blame everyone else but them!

I used to associate Virgin with quality. Not anymore. This will be my last time travelling with Virgin Holidays. Sorry Mr Branson, you have lost a customer.

Sorry don't know why it formatted like that......

So you think its OK for you to profit from someone elses mistake?
If you accidentally gave a £10 note for a £5 purchase, you would expect not to get the £5 back?

If someone sells you a TV for £300 and you find its should have been £250 you would demand the difference back wouldn't you??

Originally posted by AlanA
So you think its OK for you to profit from someone elses mistake?

Basically as long as it isn't illegal, yes. [}:)] When you engage a professional you have a reasonable expectation that they will know what they are doing and you will make decisions based upon that expectation. Otherwise everyone would engage in a peculiar bait and switch.

It actually sounds as though the OP has been appallingly treated by VH - or more specifically their after sales service. Not that all outsourced after sales service is bad - I've had to deal with Netgear a lot recently and they've been great even if each time the answer is "your kit is broken - take it back for an exchange"!. But we do seem to read a litany of complaints about VH's after sales service.

Next time AndyR rent a Hertz car with Neverlost OR BUY an iPaq for £250 which includes TomTom navigation software, that way the maps are a non issue!

Originally posted by AlanA
If someone sells you a TV for £300 and you find its should have been £250 you would demand the difference back wouldn't you??

You can demand 'til you're blue in the face - if the store in question is not "Never knowingly undersold" and you paid the advertised price you're SOL - caveat emptor and all that.

Hmmm.. Interesting. I'm guessing there is a liability on Virgin Holidays to honour the original price since that would have been the deal they accepted the booking at. Effectively they have made a contract with you to provide services at a given price at the point the booking is accepted. Potentially they could cancel the contract and refund your money in full, or provide the services at the agreed price.

As for the maps, I may be missing something, but I wouldn't see those as terribly important given you have access to the Internet and sites like Google Maps will create driving directions for anywhere in the world - far better than any of the Virgin maps that are handed out (I think you can get them at the welcome meeting as well as supposedly included with your tickets). Don't let that ruin your holiday, just create them on Google and take them with you.

Pete

Not ever used VH for anything I do not know what their T&C's say. That would be the first point of call. It probably covers such things. Its like when you have paid the full sum for your flight, you can be charged extra right up to the flight

But I still think its morally wrong to try and profit out of what seems to be someones genuine mistake.

Originally posted by AlanA
So you think its OK for you to profit from someone elses mistake?
If you accidentally gave a £10 note for a £5 purchase, you would expect not to get the £5 back?

If someone sells you a TV for £300 and you find its should have been £250 you would demand the difference back wouldn't you??

I wouldn't expect the £5 back if I left the shop...

If I bought a TV from dixons for £300 and they subsequently dropped the price by £50 you wouldn't expect dixons to cough up the change??.. would you?

If a price is agreed and it's subsequently found to be incorrect then thats tough!! It works both ways!!

The only time there is any recourse on either side of a contract is when the amount isn't resonable - for example if dixons accidently charged me £3 instead of £300 they could argue that I couldn't resonably expect a new TV for £3 and a judge would probably agree.

If you put this in context £250 for a 3K trip your talking about 8% of cost..

VH should not only have bit the bullet on this..they should have done so without comment.

An less than 8% loss of profit isn't worth bad will to any business; particularly considering your alienating a regular customer!!

Glad to see some people agree with me on this.

At the end of the day, AlanA, put yourself in my shoes for a mo. You've saved for 2 years for a holiday of a lifetime, you phone up are given the price and you pay it (all up front by the way). Then two weeks later you get the phone call asking for another £250. Are you telling me you would happily go, oh I'm so glad you told me, heres my credit card number I'm glad you told me as I would have felt so bad underpaying after you sold me something at a price. I'm sorry but it swings both ways. And no I'm not a crook. I have been undercharged in a shop before and mentioned it to the sales assistant, likewise I have had shop assisants run after me when I've been given the wrong change. But 2 weeks later, I mean seriously!!!

At the end of the day your the customer, they made a mistake. In my job in the past I made a quote out wrong to a customer for £180 less than I should have done and when my boss found out he went mad at me but never went back to the customer after this as they would have told us where to go! Basically, over this mistake by Virgin where they have lost £250 because of there error, they could have accepted this as a mistake and left it alone, in which case I'd still happily book a holiday every year with them. But instead they became rude and demanding and a such won't be getting a penny more from me. Not good business sense that.

Also, I know the maps are not a problem, its just the principle of the thing. You've paid for some goods you expect to have them. You wouldn't buy a car and when its delivered without an air filter not complain cus you can nip to Halfords and buy one.....

We have already planned our route anyway with an Streets and Trips that a friend lent me. Its just the principle.

Anyway, not wanting to start an arguement. Just posting my experience of VH.

Thanks for listening.

AndyR

I agree with you mate - I think you have been treated shabbily by VH and your analogy of the air filter is a fair one. Sure, if they had back to you within an hour or two you would probably huffed and puffed a bit but I guess you would have (reluctantly) paid up. This is just another example of the total ineptitude and couldn't care less attitude of VH.
The point is, until people vote with their feet, VH will probably persist with their cavalier attitude. I too have decided that VH can do without my business in the future, but that doesn't mean I won't be flying VS again, just not booking through VH. Perhaps VH management might read some of the less than complimentary opinions on this forum[:(!]
Incidentally, point taken about the maps too, but please don't let it spoil your trip. Me and the present Mrs Treelo did a similar type trip a couple of years ago - it was superb. Enjoy:)

I know from experience working in a well known Travel Agency that Andy would not ever have had to pay. We were always asked to ask the customer for the difference in a pleasant manner and sometimes it worked but if not whoever made the mistake had to pay up.

Once a confirmation invoice has been sent you are asked to check it yourself otherwise mistakes cannot be rectified later without charge - this works both ways. VH never had a leg to stand on.

Alan you have to look at it from Andy's point of view - this price was quoted and if it had been more expensive he may not have booked in the first place.

Jilly

A very open-ended section in the back of VH brochures states and I quote:

We take great care in checking all our prices. Should any error have arisen we will advise you at the time of booking and of course you have the option of accepting the new price or not (it may be lower)

Another section in the booking conditions, and again I quote:

Virgin Holidays reserve the right to raise or lower its prices at any time before you book the holiday.......If at the time of booking your holiday, the price has changed from that shown in the brochure, you will be told the revised price applicable to the holiday before you commit yourself

My take on this is that VH did not tell you at the time of booking so these conditions are not applicable to you, especially if you had received an invoice before VH contacted you regarding the changes.

Therefore, VH are in the wrong but as we all know holiday companies do not follow the same retail rules as anyone else so it's a tricky one.

Regards

Thankfully I have never had a BIG problem with VH, I never telephone now though cause one time on the phone for over an hour was one time too many, I always use emails if that doesn't work I write to the big mans management office.

I think you got a member of staff that was too big for his bootees
trying to cover his ass or get browni points for getting some more cash out of you.

On a matter of security though I would never pay someone who called me on the phone out of the blue asking for money by credit card, who was to say it was defo VH calling hypothetically speaking.

Vegas can change their rates at a moments notice and I imagine VH were not on the ball whenthey quoted you, but thats their problem I guess ( assuming the quote was invoiced and confirmed , however if it was an additional part to your original confirmation invoice they may have thought it was worth a try, and I can't blame them for trying.

If you look the part Vegas hotels offer you upgrades at checkin anyway
at good rates, if not always ask. For an extra $150 I got an upgrade to a penthouse suite at the luxor last may.

Originally posted by mitchja

Therefore, VH are in the wrong but as we all know holiday companies do not follow the same retail rules as anyone else so it's a tricky one.

But they should follow the rules and it's worth bearing in mind that in addition to the usual consumer protection rules, the Package Travel Regulations would cover this situation and they provide even greater protection in a number of areas. I did a neat little project on those at Law school

Big companies love to shy away from their repsonsibilities. Mobile phone companies are another sector which spring to mind, inventing rules about returning faulty equipment which can't possibly be compatible with statute. I think complaining to Trading Standards is an excellent step in doing something about it - they are there to uphold the protection the law affords.

VH seem to have unnecessarily destroyed goodwill. Other's comments seem to have hit the nail on the head with regard to the relative imbalance between big company and small consumer and the skewing of rights that (quite properly, IMHO) flows from that.

Originally posted by easygoingeezer

For an extra $150 I got an upgrade to a penthouse suite at the luxor last may.

EGG - quick question about that. Was that one of the suites on the high floors of the towers, with double doors and a doorbell? I'm quite interested to know what lurks behind those double doors!

AndyR

You were tottally write. Most of the time if you more than just x weeks in y you're forcred to speak to someone to book your holiday. Without doubt you're put on hold with a coupld of breaks between texas and whatever else they always play to double checl this and that then finally it seems they pick a price out of the air and never matching broucher prices and discounts etc. When they tell you a price, you pay your deposit on the price then theat's what you've agreed.

Comeon if suddernly the hotel or flight plice is reducded whenever has anywon recevied a call from VH to say the price we gave you is now wrong and we owe you £250, now that would be a nice business and one you would probably go back to , unless they made it every time.

Just a little info on Vegas hotels.

The bigger hotels sell blocks of room's to travel companys (inc VH) they get them at a far lower rate than you cna as a regular person of the street,the only problem being if they don't sell them,then they are stuck with them.

As to the topic in hand,VH is way out of line on this one,I could understand if while on the phone when booking the trip the sales person said "sorry i've made a mistake" these things happen,but to come back 2 weeks later and say we messed up,thats way out of line.

What im guessing they did was use the 2004 pricing for TheHotel instead of the 2005,just a wild guess,but you would be amazed at the mistakes travel companys make(such as taking booking for a beachside suite,when the hotel has no beach side room's,let alone suites)but the general rule of business is,if you mess up you eat it,even send a letter say we messed up,but as a sign of goodwill we are eating it,a customer is more likly to come back to you with something like that instead of the move they tried to pull.

I must admit in my business if me or any of my staff mess up, its my responsibility to take it on the chin as ultimately I represent the company.

I would be inclined to leave it for now, enjoy your holiday and when you get back write a trong but politely worded letter to Virgin Groups management office c/o of the big man himself, it will get automatically passed on to VH, BUT the ones passed on from SRB's management office are tracked by them and they have to receive a copy of the reply sent to you from VH.

If you stress your past loyalty to the company and a desire to remain loyal, but you were hurt and suprised by the way you were treated, you may end up with an apology worth more than the extra money rather rudely asked for.

If you tell them you intend never to book with them again the response is more likely to be along the lines of "whatever"

Thanks for the pointers there. We are definately going to enjoy the holiday no matter what and were planning on taking it up with VH when we get back. Incidentially the post man came this morning and surprise surprise no maps....

When I contact them after the hols I word it as you suggest thanks.

Thanks for everyone understanding what I've been saying. Appriciated.

I look forward to posting the TR when I get back

Whoa there!!! I am a little surprised to read so many V-Flyers coming up with a guilty verdict on the basis of presentation of the evidence for the prosecution alone.
Something doesn't quite add up with this one. Could it be that the hotel that was confirmed and charged for was Mandalay Bay, whilst the £250 extra was for the hotel upgrade, which never appeared on the confirmation? If not, then I agree that VH should stick with the price agreed at booking, but I would like to hear the case for the defence before judgment and sentencing takes place.
AndyR, please could you be a little more specific as to the reasons VH gave for asking for the £250 extra, please?

I thought my posts were pretty even handed really, if you read them.[8D]

in the original post Andy says that during the booking process he upgraded to THEHotel..If the upgrade wasn't in the original quote wouldn't it of said "X nights at Manadalay Bay" rather than "X nights at THEHotel" on the invoice and conformation???

No worries. At the time of booking we asked if we could change from the Mandalay Bay to the THEHotel at Mandalay Bay. They told it would be an additional £140 which we accepted. When the confirmation came through in the post a couple of days later it stated THEHotel @ Mandalay Bay and indeed the price was the £140 dearer than the standard holiday at the original hotel.

2 weeks later they phoned and said they had undercharged us by £250 (no reason given for this) so we had to pay up for be moved back to the Mandalay Bay.

Everything on the confirmations they sent us had THEHotel on, nothing else.

Cool,then they are in the wrong.

Agreed. If the confirmation gave you a price for the deal you wanted, then it's a VH problem if they undercharged you by £250. I assume someone is getting it in the neck bigtime for such a mistake.

Originally posted by jetwet1
in the original post Andy says that during the booking process he upgraded to THEHotel..If the upgrade wasn't in the original quote wouldn't it of said "X nights at Manadalay Bay" rather than "X nights at THEHotel" on the invoice and conformation???

Yes, indeed and AndyR did say that this is the case in the original post. What I was (and, I suppose, still am) a little bemused by is how VH can operate a system that allows a confirmation to go out with the incorrect price on it. Hence, I am interested to know what reasons VH gave for the incorrect pricing. I am no nearer knowing how the deal came to be 'underpriced' because AndyR says that no reason was given.