Mobile Phones - Flight Mode

Some mobile phones (mine included [Sony Ericsson W800i]) have a flight-mode feature, which when activated allows you to listen to music, watch videos and take pictures with your phone while having all of the transmitters (calls, text msgs & bluetooth) switched off so it does not interfere with the planes air traffic control systems.

When you switch the phone on, it asks "Switch Phone on" or "Flight Mode".

So basically in flight mode you have an MP3 & Video Player, and a Digital Camera.

I have used my flight mode on British Airways & Qantas and this has been allowed, but certain airlines don't allow flight mode (eg Singapore Airlines).

So my question is, does Virgin allow flight mode on their planes? I'm flying from Manchester to the USA in January.

Hello and welcome

Whenever I have flown VS they have a standard announcement that requests that you turn off all mobile phones including those with a 'flight mode'. I think you may be stuck on this one, but I am sure other will chip in.

Paul

[preiffer]

Hi Jordan 1707, and welcome [y]

VS specifically deny the use of ANY "two way communication devices" - including pagers, BlackBerries & mobile phones and as Paul stated above, incorporate a warning to those with a "flight safe mode" into their announcement.

So sorry, if it looks like a phone, you won't be allowed to have it on.

Originally posted by preiffer
Hi Jordan 1707, and welcome [y]

VS specifically deny the use of ANY "two way communication devices" - including pagers, BlackBerries & mobile phones and as Paul stated above, incorporate a warning to those with a "flight safe mode" into their announcement.

So sorry, if it looks like a phone, you won't be allowed to have it on.

In UCS this has never been a problem... Treo user here.

Cheers
sky

[preiffer]

Originally posted by sky
In UCS this has never been a problem... Treo user here.

Then you've been successfully ignoring the instructions of a crewmember in UCS - isn't that illegal...?

[mcmbenjamin]

I do agree that using the phone as you would not be obeying a crewmembers instruction. Also if you use a cell phone or similar in the the normal mode it is illegal as the flight is under IFR even if the a/c is in VMC (in the US airspace).

From what a small bird told me, my LG V6000 does not interfer with a Diamond 20, Diamond 40, Cessna 152, 172, TBM700 under IFR and VFR and in VMC and IMC.

I certianly do not fly with this product: Headset Companion Audio Interface on General aviation flights

[preiffer]

Originally posted by mcmbenjamin
I certianly do not fly with this product: Headset Companion Audio Interface on General aviation flights

You mean you've never taken a call from your parents when on final...?

(Is dinner ready yet, I'm coming home...?) [:p]

[mcmbenjamin]

Neverever have called my friend who is a dispatcher and got quick detialed info when I was holding 20 minutes from BNA with 35 min of fuel left after going missed on an ILS. Nashville FSS was busy and the XM weather downlink was not current. Best 90USD I spent.

But mostly just passing the time, monitering the G1000 and making sure it is talking to the autopilot. Also you can hook up the iPod but with those new ones I would not suggest watch movies!

Oh also at on jetliners at 600mph my cell goes not work well.

Has anybody seen the has 10 minutes of soul plane?

No moans about using my Nokia 9500 on my BA flights either side of Xmas, but they are happy with equipment being in "flight mode" or "phone off".

Indeed, the Nokia 9500 defaults to "flight mode" when you "switch off" from the menu on the front of the phone - there doesn't seem to be a way of completely shutting down the handheld, other than removing the battery. You shut the lid, and with the phone off, it goes into standby.

I also leave my laptop in standby all the time, because it takes an age to boot because of all the "run at startup" snot that our IT department put on it.

If VS don't like it, they can stick it in their pipe and smoke it. I'm not doing anything to endanger the aircraft.

VS' onboard IT policy is simply stuck in the Dark Ages - laptop power being spotty anywhere except Upper, and no inflight wi-fi/broadband net access, both despite having a relatively small (and therefore easier to modify) fleet, and new aircraft still being delivered.

There's also the craziness of leaving the laptop power switched off until the IFE system is started or someone asks for it (pet hate), every other airline seems to just leave it on all the time. It really lets VS down.

Mike

Well I guess I wont be able to use it on the plane, i wanted to use it as an MP3 player as its a 9 hour flight, and I'll get quite bored.

Anyone actually been told any different on a flight and that they are allowed flight-mode mobiles switched on?

Meanwhile I'm gonna try to get a straight answer from someone, so far nobody has been able to tell me a straight yes or no.

Whilst I agree with your sentiment that there is no proven reason why you should not use a mobile phone in Flight Safe mode the fact still remains, as mentioned my Paul above, that you MUST comply with the onboard instructions. I think telling VS to stick it in their pipe and smoke could well end up with you having to fly with an airline that does allow the use of this type of equipment.

My advice is to always follow the onboard instructions.

Paul

[preiffer]

Jordan, the straight answer is no.

Despite Mike's brave comments above "they can stick it in their pipe and smoke it", he's in the wrong for using his mobile inflight - they're the rules (and have been announced on EVERY VS flight I've ever been on). It is also not Mike's place to decide what is and isn't safe to be used on a particular aircraft.

You will hear them say that NO two way communication devices (even those with a "flight safe" mode) may be used while the aircraft doors are closed. This may only apply to a VS flight, and it may change in the future, but for now - that's the rule.

If you choose to go against this announcement, you *may* get away with it - but you ARE breaking the rules (and in fact, the law), as it's a direct instruction from a crew member.

OK Thanks, I have no intention of ignoring what they say, if its not allowed then its not allowed. Never mind!

[Scrooge]

Before I start with my little rant I would like to say that the idea of someone using a cell phone during a flight ranks right up there with doing a RTW in VS coach...it shouldn't be done...I won't do it...it annoying as hell...

But just so im clear on a few thing (putting on Prieffer's flame retarrdent suit) is anyone here infering that using a cell phone during any part of a flight will bring said aircraft down or cause problems with the instruments or computers that run the aircraft in anyway?

Originally posted by preiffer
Despite Mike's brave comments above "they can stick it in their pipe and smoke it", he's in the wrong for using his mobile inflight - they're the rules (and have been announced on EVERY VS flight I've ever been on). It is also not Mike's place to decide what is and isn't safe to be used on a particular aircraft.

Paul,

I fail to see what is magically different about a VS 744 and a BA 744, other than seemingly unnecessary red tape.

Granted, they may have different packages installed in the E&M bay, but it's unlikely that using a PDA (which is what the 9500 is once it's phone functions are properly inhibited) will affect the avionics or performance of the aircraft.

I'm aware that rules regarding use of any electronics during high-risk phases of flight, taxi, takeoff, approach and landing are in there to reduce passenger distraction in the event of an emergency, and to ensure that items in the cabin are properly secured, more than any danger that the (non-transmitting) electronics themselves may pose to the aircraft systems.

Last time I was a pax in a GA aircraft, VFR of course, my friend who was actually P1 of the aircraft took a mobile phone call. The ND needles didn't even twitch, and the handset was inches away from the dash.

To answer Dave's question, it's not impossible that interference from unauthorised transmitting devices (such as a phone) could cause issues with the avionics. It's terribly remote, actually. But when you're doing a CAT III ILS approach into Heathrow in some thick pea-soup, you'd probably prefer to minimise any risks you can.

My "stick it in their pipe" and smoke it comment was not intended to encourage people to disobey crew member instructions.

It's me saying that if VS don't change their pre-historic tech policies, so that they are in-step with their main competitors, then people (myself included) will consider jumping ship.

With more and more "converged" devices shipping, it's about time that the rules were given an overhaul.

Eeeh.... remember when VS was a hip innovator?

Mike

(putting on my stern face) Using a mobile phone on VS flights is just like smoking - don't do it![V]

Cheers,
VS045

Originally posted by VS045
(putting on my stern face) Using a mobile phone on VS flights is just like smoking - don't do it![V]

...and if you read the OP's (and my) comments, they are about using non-phone, non-transmitting functions of a multi-function PDA/Palm-top.

No-one is suggesting breaking any rules by using the telephone functions. I personally love the fact that I have a few phone-free hours during a flight to either get down to some serious work (if I can use my technology!) or kick back and relax.

The OP asked a question, and got their answer. I relayed my recent (positive) experience on BA, and frustration at the red tape to be found on VS.

I didn't think we were a crowd of "VS apologists" on here?

Regards,
Mike

Yeah, what mike said. This is about using the non-telecommunicational aspects of the mobile. When flight mode is enabled the phone becomes an MP3 Player (& Video player in some cases).

This isn't about whether the issues expressed by VS involving electronic devices are just, it's about whether they allow you to use them or not on board, and the answer is no. Whilst you are on their aircraft unfortunately you are bound to any rules they may have in place. That's just the way it is.

Hmmm ... my laptop is a two way communication device but when I switch off WiFi does that make allow me to use it? Always have ... I agree Virgin's in flight connectivity and rules are getting somewhat creaky and added to the random availability of in flight power it does not make it that business friendly ... on internal US flights you can use mobiles while taxiing, others have WiFi, in flight mobile use is being touted so what is the technological issue here?

I am not making a case for in flight mobile use however [V]

Originally posted by slinky09
Hmmm ... my laptop is a two way communication device but when I switch off WiFi does that make allow me to use it? Always have ... I agree Virgin's in flight connectivity and rules are getting somewhat creaky and added to the random availability of in flight power it does not make it that business friendly ... on internal US flights you can use mobiles while taxiing, others have WiFi, in flight mobile use is being touted so what is the technological issue here?

I am not making a case for in flight mobile use however [V]

I believe the issue is that it is much harder to check if something is in flight mode or not, so they choose to ban all of it.

On the time I've used me Treo in UCS the cabin crew were well aware of it, I think I even told one of them it was in PDA mode. It does however slightly suck since BA nowdays allow bluetooth devices onboard during flight.

Cheers
sky

[preiffer]

Nick's right on the money, above.

This wasn't initially a thread about whether mobile phones/pagers/laptops with wifi/bluetooth devices are safe to use onboard or not - it was about whether you are ALLOWED to use a mobile phone (or blackberry/ipaq type device) onboard a VS flight.

The answer to THAT question is NO. Not, under any circumstances. Simple.

Unless VS decide to change their instruction to passengers, any deviation from this is breaking the law.



Now, in terms of whether they're safe or not - I personally don't believe they cause a problem. Having said that, I HAVE been on final (as PIC) in a DA40 when my friend's mobile started to receive a call (in the co-pilot pocket).

No, it did not affect the navigation systems, ILS or GPS - but it did do the normal "di-didda-di-didda" thing in my headset through the avionics - not good when I'm trying to concentrate.


That's not me suggesting the same happens on a 744 - and indeed, the aircraft manufacturers seem able to shield the avionics from all of that interference (hence the "use your mobile onboard next year" stories) - but the general answer seems to be that we don't *really* know what they do.


Virgin have their reasons for the policy. As long as you're sat on a Virgin aircraft, you abide by their policies - otherwise, as Paul says, you'll be smoking your pipe on a different carrier in future.


(For clarity - Mike, honestly not having a go, I promise! Just trying to be clear on the issue.)

Originally posted by slinky09
... on internal US flights you can use mobiles while taxiing, others have WiFi, in flight mobile use is being touted so what is the technological issue here?

It's quite well explained, in layman's language, here.

Originally posted by slinky09
Hmmm ... my laptop is a two way communication device but when I switch off WiFi does that make allow me to use it? Always have ... I agree Virgin's in flight connectivity and rules are getting somewhat creaky and added to the random availability of in flight power it does not make it that business friendly

Cutting to the quick, the question seems to be whether the risk is real, or just perceived. The BBC Link above includes this paragraph:

Has an Aircraft Actually Crashed Because of Mobile Phone Emissions?

Well, the most accurate answer is that we don't really know, but the short answer is that it probably has. On the night of Friday 6 February, 2003, a Piper Navajo Chieftain light aircraft was on approach to Christchurch, New Zealand. It was dark, and the weather was poor, so the landing was using instruments only. Some 2km short of the runway, the plane flew into a tree, killing the pilot and seven passengers. Only two survived.

Later analysis revealed that the plane had been below the correct glide path for the runway, and that the instruments were telling the pilot to descend. The instruments had malfunctioned and the pilot had, understandably, continued to follow their instructions, being unaware of the malfunction. It transpired that the pilot had made a call on his mobile just before the glide path signal was acquired. The call ceased when the plane crashed. Although the final report was inconclusive, no evidence was found to support any other theory for the crash.

It is not in doubt that effects occur when active radio frequency equipment (including mobiles, wi-fi, bluetooth) operate in proximity to receiving equipment (including GPS, glidescopes, nav beacon receivers). Aircraft systems can be (and are, now) "hardened" against such interference, but it isn't possible to rule out unwanted effects, not least because of the complexity of aircraft avionics and the fact that you can only test and certify against a specific set of conditions: As soon as you have a different set of conditions (different phone, different location, different modulation) you are in territory that is unknown to some extent.

After 27 years of telecoms engineering I can't quantify the risk of using some of these devices in-flight, and I don't second-guess those who make the rules. Someone in Virgin has made the decision not to allow their use on VS flights, and has kept it simple: They might have said "You can use BT, but not in conjunction with wi-fi if you are within 27.5cm of any junction box containing cabling protected to an EMC standard lower than x, and there is a potentially constructively interfering CDMA transmitter within 5 metres". That position might well be justified by available information , but it certainly isn't going to be understood or followed by 99% of pax or cabin crew. I suspect the position of airlines allowing free licence will have been influenced at least to some extent by commercial pressures. Given that a risk of catastrophic interference exists, albeit very small, I have no problem with following the rules.

Best wishes

David

[mcmbenjamin]

Personally I think Virgin has not had a reason to spend the money to get there manuals changed/updated and approved by the CAA. Bang verus buck really. Maybe they are just waiting for this: Link

Benjamin

I would also think that what Virgin are doing is trying to take out the possibility of an idiot with a flight mode phone forgetting or deliberatly ignoring the swap over.

You just know there are morons who think they are so important that they cannot be out of contact with the office for a few hours and would put it into vibrate with ear piece.....