Downgraded from UC

Following on from the another topic about the delay problems out of JFK and the observation that passengers have been downgraded from UC, I wondered what VF Forum members thought would be suitable compensation from VAA if one were downgraded.

This nearly happened on a recent weekend trip to NY and would have totally ruined the break if we had been downgraded.[V]

So if it did happen, what would be reasonable compensation from VAA do you think?[:?]

A refund in difference of fares is all that I have heard check-in staff offer but only if the pax write in to claim this after their flight home.

I sat next to a chap in PE once who had been downgraded. He seemed very fine with it, quite chatty but he did make it clear he would write in once he got home.

I would estimate the first offering would be difference in fare, 10k miles and possible something off a next flight. I think if you pushed them on it you MAY get enough miles for a one way UC seat (so 50k miles perhaps). Can't imagine you would get much else as you always have the option of taking a later flight and as I have been told on numerous occasions, the airlines contract is only to deliver you from A to B but not at a specific time or even date!

Paul

Sounds like my idea of a nightmare - personally I would want to be either:
- transfered to another flight/carrier (like BA) in Business Class
- accomodated at Virgin's expense and put on the next day's flight. (assuming there was some flexibility in when we needed to get where we were going...)

Otherwise - if it was a dayflight - MAYBE a downgrade to PE, use of the CH and enough miles for a free return UC flight.

Boo

Originally posted by p17blo


Can't imagine you would get much else as you always have the option of taking a later flight

Paul

Fine, but what if it's the last flight out of JFK (usually the busiest) on any given day? Sleep on the floor of the terminal?[?]

Originally posted by vizbiz
Fine, but what if it's the last flight out of JFK (usually the busiest) on any given day? Sleep on the floor of the terminal?[?]

No, if VS have to put me on a flight the next day (to accomodate me in the class of service that I have paid for), I would expect them to pay for my hotel and expenses.

Boo

Originally posted by Boo Boo

Originally posted by vizbiz
Fine, but what if it's the last flight out of JFK (usually the busiest) on any given day? Sleep on the floor of the terminal?[?]

No, if VS have to put me on a flight the next day (to accomodate me in the class of service that I have paid for), I would expect them to pay for my hotel and expenses.

Boo

You won't be surprised to know I totally agree with that. Now, whether they'd do it I don't know...[:(]

Originally posted by vizbizYou won't be surprised to know I totally agree with that. Now, whether they'd do it I don't know...[:(]

Have a look at http://www.virgin-atlantic.com/en/gb/bo ... riage9.jsp

I would say you would be IDB (Involuntary Denied Boarding) - Section 9.4.3 (even if you have a Miles or Miles and Money or MFU ticket this appears to be applicable). Therefore you can choose:
9.4.2.1 Remedy One - we will reimburse the fare paid for your ticket for the part of carriage not used or the whole amount paid if, as a result of Denied Boarding, the carriage no longer serves any purpose in relation to your original travel plans, and, if relevant, carry you to the first point of departure on the earliest flight with suitable space available. OR

9.4.2.2 Remedy Two - we will re-route you on the earliest flight with suitable space available to your final destination airport (or to another airport serving the same town, city or region, in which event we will provide you with surface transport to your final destination airport). OR

9.4.2.3 Remedy Three - we will re-route you at a later date on a flight with suitable space available to your final destination airport (or to another airport serving the same town, city or region, in which event we will provide you with surface transport to your final destination airport).


AND

9.4.3.2 we will pay you compensation in the amount of 600 Euros, which will be reduced to 300 Euros if you choose re-routing pursuant to Articles 9.4.2.2 or 9.4.2.3 and such re-routing results in a scheduled time of arrival at your final destination which is no more than fours hours later than the scheduled time of arrival of the flight originally booked;

AND

9.4.3.3 we will provide you with the assistance specified in Article 9.5.1, except to the extent that we reasonably expect that provision of such assistance would cause delay.

9.5 Assistance

9.5.1 Where this Article 9.5 applies, we will provide you with or arrange for you to receive the following free assistance:

9.5.1.1 meals and refreshments in reasonable relation to waiting time;

9.5.1.2 hotel accommodation if a stay of one or more nights, or a stay additional to that intended by you, becomes necessary;

9.5.1.3 surface transport between the airport and any place of accommodation provided pursuant to Article 9.5.1.2;

9.5.1.4 two telephone calls or, if facilities are available, two telexes, faxes or e-mails.

There seems to be quite a bit of CHOICE available to the passenger (regarding taking later flights, rerouting or downgrading etc). There is an emphasis on it being the passenger's choice and not what is dictated by the airline - so there is a lot of room for negotiation there. If you are worried, take a copy of the "conditions of carriage" with you when you fly: if the person whom your dealing with isn't helpful, then request to speak to a supervisor.

Boo

Interestingly, Remedies 2 & 3 don't say what class of travel would be offered. I can imagine a jobsworth saying that they're only obliged to provide "suitable space" and there's no comittment to class of travel.

And I wonder on reflection, if they would argue that they are NOT at all denying boarding - i.e. you can board, but remember to turn right instead of left when you set foot on the plane... it seems they've put vagueness into their obligations by patently ignoring the fact that a their customer is being dropped a fare class (or two).

[Darren Wheeler]

The OP was about being downgraded rather than a IDB. I was under the impression that if downgraded, other than a refund of the difference, everything else was a matter for negotiation between you and the airline. As was mentioned, the contract is only to transport you and your belongings between A and B (perhaps via C and D..) eventually.

Usually there are much better offers if you volunteer to be off-loaded. I was once offered a UC return ticket to come off a LHR-LAX flight. Too bad I had a tour to meet.

I would say that downgrade is essentially an IDB as in you have been denied boarding in the class you have paid for.

I think it would go something like, sorry we have no seats in your class however we can put in you in PE or Econ. That sounds like a remedy action to me which off-course you can refuse.

And to confirm, there are 'rules' and a passenger charter from virgin which deals with compensation in the event of overnight delays which I am sure covers food and accommodation.

Personally, I hope everytime I go to check in coming back from MCO i hear those magic words - The flight is full and you don't have a seat. Any excuse to extend my stay

Paul

This is EXACTLY what I think - basically you are being IDB in your paid/confirmed class of travel.

Originally posted by p17blo
I would say that downgrade is essentially an IDB as in you have been denied boarding in the class you have paid for.

I think it would go something like, sorry we have no seats in your class however we can put in you in PE or Econ. That sounds like a remedy action to me which off-course you can refuse.

I think the thing to remember - from the conditions of carriage - is that, as a passenger, you have a choice: you don't HAVE to except a seat in PE (on the same flight) and the fare difference... If that is what you want then fine, if not then you have every right to negotiate something else (according to the conditions of carriage) [y]

If you pay for UC (either in cash and/or miles) then you are entitled to be delievered in that class of travel - although you may have to wait a day or be put onto another carrier to do it.

Think it is good to know your rights and, if you are not happy with what they are offering, stick to your guns... (in a very polite, but firm manner)

Boo

Anybody know a solicitor/barrister who could provide some insight into the question of whether the scenario in my original post would constitute IDB or not? If VAA decide to argue it's not IDB it would be hard at the check-in desk to argue the contrary without the support of some legal advice - which is not usually on hand at check-in.

In the 'good old days' VS used to have a lounge area with 6 seats and a chess table in the cabin - for meetings and such during the flight - where anyone denied a seat would be put. I miss the original scarlet ladies just for those lounges The crrent bars are the last vestige of them. VS used to advertise that if you were full fare Upper you would have a guaranteed seat guaranteed with 24 hours notice even if it had to be one of these...

I miss the old days when VS was truly different.

My involuntary and very last minute downgrade was a six month nightmare to sort out . Eventually I was well compensated refund and 50K miles good will gesture so all was forgiven only resolved thanks to v-flyer and a couple of members though it needs to be said.

I was downgraded from UC to PE over a year ago.

At the airport, I was given 4 x free econ ticket vouchers / 50K miles vouchers. I was able to have all 200K miles credited to my account.

Then, it took a while to get the fare difference back from VS.

While the 200K miles came in VERY handy, my wife was REALLY upset about the downgrade.

Danno

We are going mob handed (5 of us mum, dad, 2 kids and grandma) in UC to SFO as a 70th birthday / family holiday treat.
If we were downgraded it would kill the whole holiday stone dead and we would just go home. After the most almighty of rows and ceremonial burning of the Au card Im sure.

[Scrooge]

OK folks..calm down a touch.

Involuntary downgrades are rare, they are a lot more rare than upgrades which are (thank you mdvipond) as rare as rocking horse poo. These normally happen when the rocking horse poo hits the fan and a number of flights are delayed such as in New York last week.

Nobody wants it to happen, not the pax, not VS, but there are times it does happen.

By the letter of the law (you may need to remind VS about this silly thing called the law) they have 7 days in which to refund you the difference of the fare paid to the fare cost of the class you fly in.

Btw..how do they figure this as a walk up PE fare would be as much as a Z ?

Anyways..other than that let them throw miles at you, I would demand at least 25k, but thats me, if they are not forthcoming demand carriage on the next flight out in the same class on another carrier, it is your right in the US.

Anyhoo's as I said at the beginning...down grades are a very rare thing.

Originally posted by Scrooge
OK folks..calm down a touch.

Involuntary downgrades are rare, they are a lot more rare than upgrades which are (thank you mdvipond) as rare as rocking horse poo. These normally happen when the rocking horse poo hits the fan and a number of flights are delayed such as in New York last week.

Nobody wants it to happen, not the pax, not VS, but there are times it does happen.

By the letter of the law (you may need to remind VS about this silly thing called the law) they have 7 days in which to refund you the difference of the fare paid to the fare cost of the class you fly in.

Btw..how do they figure this as a walk up PE fare would be as much as a Z ?

Anyways..other than that let them throw miles at you, I would demand at least 25k, but thats me, if they are not forthcoming demand carriage on the next flight out in the same class on another carrier, it is your right in the US.

Anyhoo's as I said at the beginning...down grades are a very rare thing.

Oi oi [8D] One is calm here [}:)]

I suppose I should have added, the reason we were pushed down from UC to PE was because the Big Bird (747) had just been upgraded from the old J2000 to UCS.

IMHO, apart from the lack of sleep on the return flight, them 200K miles paid for 2 UC trips for me the better half on a trip away without the kids!!!

I did actually point that out to Mrs Danno, and she just smiled :D

I know it can make or break a trip, but as they say, every cloud has a silver something or other!!!

Danno

My folks got downgraded from UC to PE coming back from the Carribean a few years ago. They were told on enquiring that it was a late aircraft change and those who had paid the least were being downgraded, I think they were on Z fares. From my recollection it ruined her holiday as the lasting memory was of a PE flight when they had paid for UC.

They were offered either PE or swap to the BA flight in Club. They opted to remain with VS. They were offered 50k miles each and eventually get a refund of the fares - although I guess this didn't happen until they had settled on a solution.

I remember my mother saying arguing that 50k miles, albeit a one way trip in UC, was not much good as they always return and that a sinlge fare is not half a return fare. But to no avail - I think she just gave up arguing with them in the end.

[Scrooge]

Originally posted by GrinningJackanapes
I know people like to be reminded to stay calm. So, please, remain calm. Calm down everyone. Please. My goodness. It's just a downgrade. Not like a crap amenity kit or something. Stay calm.

Calmly,

GJ

[:p] [oo]

Stay calm, all is well etc..

Ok back on topic...

50k miles plus a return in the fare difference sounds fair to me, though at the time I am sure I would not be the happiest camper in the world. In the end it is far better than a denied bording, which trust me sucks to the end of the earth.

Originally posted by RobL
They were offered either PE or swap to the BA flight in Club. They opted to remain with VS. They were offered 50k miles each and eventually get a refund of the fares - although I guess this didn't happen until they had settled on a solution.

Would have gone with the BA Club flight in a heart beat - BA is a very good airline with a very good Business Class product. Infact I would go with any business class product with a reasonable airline over a PE product... I put my personal comfort over loyalty to any airline.

You parents were given the choice (which is what they should have been done), they just chose the wrong option [:(] . Not that you want to HAVE to make that choice in the first place...

Boo

To add my thoughts to the topic...

If I was ever downgraded for whatever reason I would want to be compensated appropriately, and if any miles were offered to be thrown at me I would expect them to be appropriate to the fare I paid and the distance I'm actually travelling.

Going on about compensation if, for example, I was flying out of the USA on a Saturday night and had to be somewhere on the Monday and I was downgraded I would either: -

*Ask to fly with another carrier in their equivalent cabin at VS expense (assuming I'm flying with VS and have already paid), or
*Accept the downgrade and will chase the matter up with VS on my return and seek appropriate compensation

Now if I was flying out of the USA on a Saturday night and did not have any other commitments upon my return I would either: -

*Ask to be moved to a flight the following day in the cabin I paid for, and will stay in a hotel overnight at the expense of VS (which I would be seeking to do)
*Ask to be moved onto another carrier's flight in the equivalent cabin at the expense of VS should there be no availability on any flights with VS within 24hrs of my booked flight

I accept that all of this may not be possible, but at the end of the day I would be paying VS good money to fly in PE/UCS and would naturally be peeved to find out I will be downgraded, so would seek to do what I have outlined above where possible.

[Scrooge]

Which are all fair and reasonable demands as far as I can see.

The problem that has come up in the past is not getting compensation from VS in the form of miles, it is getting back the fare difference which you are owed.

[RichardMannion]

Ahh yes, one of my favourite subjects DBC (Denied Boarding Compensation).

It was tightened up a couple years ago in the EU, though some airlines still have some creative interpretations of it and will always try and squirm on it.

If anyone has any specific questions let me know, there is an entire chapter I wrote about it in the forthcoming V-Book 3 which I have started work on again.

For this instance, for a UC downgrade you will be given a Red ÔSelectÕ voucher, and the difference in your fare refunded back to you.

Red Select Vouchers:
So you were given a Red Select voucher by Virgin Atlantic due to an oversell on a flight, what can you get with it?

- Free return economy flight to anywhere on the Virgin Atlantic network (must be a VS operated flight), including taxes you will have nothing to pay. The exception is the Sydney route, you cannot use a Red Select voucher for a free return flight on the Sydney route unless the Red Select voucher was issued for VDB on the Sydney route.

or
- 50,000 flying club miles

Thanks,
Richard

Approx 2 years ago i was flying back (on business and alone) from Washington in UC and was in the clubhouse, when the call went out for a volunteer to downgrade to pe.
the first offer was 2 economy returns to washington, no takers, the next was 80k miles. I went to the desk and volunteered for 100k miles, this was accepted.

i was given a wonderful bottle of wine by the clubhouse and escorted on to the plane and introduced to the uc flight attendant.
She told me to come to the bar for a drink after take-off, which i did and actually got a meal aswell.
3 hours into the flight and a few malts later i returned to my seat in pe for a sleep, the looks i got from other passengers were priceless.
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