Baby in UC

Hi I am new would like to say hello;

Just returned from Barbados and booked UC as I have done on other occasions for my family. A key reason is that we book 6a and 6C so that we can make a bed infront for my baby boy (15 months)and therefore there is no distubance for other passangers. No problem on flight out but on the flight back it all went wrong. I think I upset the crew by asking to store the pram on the plane - they wanted it in the hold - the problem being it's a long walk with babies and hand luggage (the pram on the plane is another reason why we fly UC). My little boy and wife and other son were fast asleep and a crew member said that he was not allowed on the floor because it was not safe because he could get hypothermia and the oxygen masks would not reach him? End of a very long story is that they still demanded I woke him up and put him on my lap for the remaining six hours - they could not provide a skycot because they were all in use in economy. Dreadfull flight - no sleep long car journey home but were they right? Is it not safe (he had two duvets on the floor as a mattress). If seat belt sign went on we would have strapped him in. Anyone in those seats ever had frostbite on their toes? Not a happy chappy please tell me your views.

One of the problems and why they ask you to wear your seat belt done up (and something we learnt in the RAF) is that you could hit a patch of Clear air turbulence without warning. Your baby would be possibly injured before you could get to him if that happened.
we kept our son on our laps for the eight hour flight.
Better safe than forever sorry.

Hi,
Firstly I'm sorry you didnt have a good flight..
I find VS usually very helpful when it comes to prams etc

I'm a wheelchair user myself and the IFS is usually more than happy to store the chair on board.

The exception to this however is when a flight is very full as they literally didnt have the space..

was your flight very full?

I terms of allowing your baby to sleep on the floor I do see safety issues here..

If there was sudden tourbulance your baby could get injured; even though thats unlikely its still a risk no FA would take..

I would recommend you email/write to FC CS though as UC passengers you should get a skycot before Y class. I think that is a fair point..

Looks like you may have been unlucky. I flew row 6 in May from MCO to MAN and there was a single mum in 6K. Crew let the baby sleep in a VS cot on the floor for most of the journey home. On a selfish point though one of the rewards for me in paying for Club Orlando / UC is that it is usually a kid free zone. There is nothing worse than crying babies on a long B & S Flight. (contraversial I know but at least I'm honest)

Paul

Thanks for your response

I don't get the concept of saftey because what happens if you are changing him in the toilet or he is having a crawl etc and you hit an air pocket - my problem is that like the lady from Manachester we have used this method many times before and no air crew has ever objected that is why I was angry and the easy thing for cabin crew to do is to say it's saftey issue - thinking about it a baby on your seat is still not safe unless strapped in for eight hours and no baby (15 months) is going to do that and what about three/four years old do they have to be strapped in for the entire flight or even adults!

P.S I pay to be in UC to get away from other peoples kids too - lucky I like mine (and they are well behaved unless woken midflight and asked to be strapped to daddy for eight hours!)

Sorry for my outburst I do love Virgin just upset with a poor response to a major issue - I am told the matter is with RB office is that bad - will we banned from flying Virgin;)

Thanks again and I hope I can contribute to this forum

I don't like the idea of anyone sleeping on the floor - what if the kid rolls a bit and gets trod on?

Was th kid on the floor in front of seats (bulkhead) or in the aisle? Most airlines wont allow anyone to sleep in aisles because of the safety issues (evacuation etc.) and the fact that it can restrict other people from getting around the cabin.

Still, there is no excuse about the sky cot - I am sorry, but Upper Class passengers should have priority for such facilities (although there really should be enough carried for each bulkhead...).

Don't airlines "gate check" pushchairs and things? Have seen that done before - checking them at the gate, then fishing them out early?

I dread the time when I have young child/ren and travel with them by plane: there just doesn't seem to be a comfortable and cost-effective solution... (+ goodness knows how you manage all of the luggage too!). Better win the lottery before I have kids I guess (Business Class seats - with car seat, or whatever, if need be - all round...)

Kids in UC are fine, providing they are well behaved.

Boo

Milan,

I agree if you were at the front on the Azone there is nothing there so it seems a perfect place. Air pockets can be encountered at any time, say when they're serving hot tea and coffee in economy on the tray in the middle of the aisle. That will cause more damage over twenty or so people. I've been on flights where the baby sleeps on the floor in front of 6A/C, the crew have even played with the baby on the floor. I guess there probably are rules and you had a crew that interpreted the rules to the letter I guess.

Still in UC they should have ensured a skycot, did they not check with you in the lounge/at check-in or even when you booked the tickets I would have thought the premier team would have seen to that.

quote:Originally posted by milan marcus
Thanks for your response

I don't get the concept of saftey because what happens if you are changing him in the toilet or he is having a crawl etc and you hit an air pocket - my problem is that like the lady from Manachester we have used this method many times before and no air crew has ever objected that is why I was angry and the easy thing for cabin crew to do is to say it's saftey issue - thinking about it a baby on your seat is still not safe unless strapped in for eight hours and no baby (15 months) is going to do that and what about three/four years old do they have to be strapped in for the entire flight or even adults!

MM,
Yes, even adults should be strapped in for the duration of flights. I always keep my belt on, albeit slightly loose.
You take the risk if not.
Our baby did exactly that, slept on our laps for the whole flight.
Adsults have been killed when CAT has been encountered. That is why it is mentioned in flight safety videos.
If the worst did happen, VS` could be sued for not enforcing flight safety rukes and informing you of such.

Alan A

The point is that they do not make everyone wear seatbelts (all the time)and therefore they cannot say it is a saftey concern because if it is then everyone on board must wear their belts all the time.

Boo Boo (6A & 6C) are at the front nothing infront - we pad the floor with the blue duvets and therefore there is no rolling.

ade99 - As I mention we have flown before and the skycot was not an issue when booking I explained why I wanted 6A & C and the agent told me that it was common for babies to sleep there.

It is the inconsistency that I have an issue with

Thanks again for the feedback guys (& girls)!

[Pete]

It's fair to grumble about the inconsistency, and definitely about the lack of skycots, but if the FA asks you to do something because of safety issue it really isn't advisable to question it.

For instance, the danger of mobile phone signals on planes could be argued, but if those are the rules on the carrier you happen to be flying with, them's the rules and you should follow them.

Equally, you commonly see passengers on 'Airline' & 'Airport' that want to carry on overweight bags to put in the overhead bins, claiming 'it fits fine, and it goes on every other airline', missing the point that if it fell out of the locker (say in an emergency landing), it's likely to do serious damage to the person under it (and I note that many times, that poor sucker isn't the person who lugged it on there, since they've spread their multiple bags throughout the cabin [:(!])

By the way, if you listen to the safety announcement, they do ask you to leave your seat belt on whenever seated just in case of turbulence. Obviously strapping people in throughout the flight would be even better, but a bit impractical.

Welcome to the forum, BTW

Pix

[Bazz]

Hi Milan and welcome, I guess your issue really is with the apparent inconsistency and that is something VS should address.

CAT as Alan says and wind shear are real factors as anyone who has experienced either will tell you, I'm not talking about a bit of violent turbulence but imagine an aircraft loosing lift and dropping several thousand feet in a few seconds, any thing not held down gets airborne, it is not pleasant. Your baby could be very seriously injured if you were unlucky enough to experience this, so I guess it is better to be cautious. My wife and I always keep out belts loosly fastened when in our seats, just sensible precautions against something you hope will never happen.

If you had a baby with you, it is preferable that you should have had seats in row 11 as there is a bassinet position there wheareas there isn't one in row 6.

I Beleive a baby was recently put on the floor to sleep on a night flight and the someone stepped out of the aisle to let a person pass and the other person stepped on the baby.

On many flights passengers are found on the floor sleeping at bulkheads, at doors and even between seats, crew have been informed that passengers must be in a seat, in a a decrompression you will not be able to reach a mask and they do not reach to the floor.

On all flights there aremore than enough cots to accomodate all the basinet positions. In your case even if there was a cot free the crew WOULD NOT have put in front of your seats in row 6 as the cot would not be SECURE, in the event of clear air turbulence your baby would have gone flying!!!

Also imagine this, your sleeping in your seat while your baby is on the floor and its a night flight with a dark cabin, a crew memember from another cabin goes to the wardrobe and without seeing your baby stands on them, who would you blame????

I would suggest you use Row 11 with an approved place for cots on a LGW400.

The crew were right not to allow the baby to sleep on the floor.

Hope this helps.

declansmith

Thans for the info - however the points remain the same:

If it is dangerous why have they never stopped us using this method before and on the same flight out?

When we booked they confirmed it was ok to put him down infront if it was not why did they not give us Row 11 (booked very early)

His bed is tucked into the corner with a light on there is no way you can stand on him!

If air turbulence is such a risk then all passengers must be strapped in all the time you cannot discriminate or decide on an individual basis. There were parents with toddlers walking/crawling and streching why were they not told to be strapped in - what happens if he was being changed in the toilet. What was more annoying was that he was allowed unstrapped on my lap which completley defeated the saftey argument

If there was decompression then I would have picked him up and put im on my lad - he would not be on the floor without oxygen ?

Saftey is so easy to hit a parent with however in my view it was safer for him to sleep on the floor so that I could sleep and rest for a four hour drive home which I consider to far more risker. As it was I decided I was too tired and stayed in a hotel to get the sleep I missed.

What I really want to impress is that travelling with children is very stressful at the best of times. I paid for my family to travel upper class in order to reduce the stress but in reality we would have been better of in economy. Virgin need a clear "toddler" policy that is advised on booking and that policy needs all crew to understand it from a practical persepective. As I said before I like Virgin alot and normally have great flights but due to poor management and communication I had a very poor experience which when travelling Upper Class you should not experience.

quote:Originally posted by milan marcus
If it is dangerous why have they never stopped us using this method before and on the same flight out?

You were lucky?

quote:Originally posted by milan marcus
When we booked they confirmed it was ok to put him down infront if it was not why did they not give us Row 11 (booked very early)

This is very bad - agree with you completely here: it seems made that they didn't do this. Btw, did you ask if you could swap seats (to row 11) once on board and aware of the problem? Most passengers are quite happy to move to help out fellow passengers (especially when swaping like for like - i.e. bulkhead for bulkhead).

quote:Originally posted by milan marcus
Virgin need a clear "toddler" policy that is advised on booking and that policy needs all crew to understand it from a practical persepective.

Yes, completely agree.

To me, it is common sense that children or adults do not sleep on the floor, so it wouldn't occur to me to do what you did. However, if you had been led to believe that it was ok to do, then that is really not good: Virgin need to be very clear on what passengers can and cannot do (at time of booking as well as on the plane).

Boo

VAA Flight Saftey regulations state that Bassinettes/skycots;

Are not to be occupied at any time when the fasten seatbelt sign is on
Are not permitted on the floor of the aircraft
Must be securely fixed to the bulkhead by the cabin crew

There was a memo out a few months ago reminding crew that babies must not be allowed on the floor.

In a rapid decompression I would like to see you get your baby and secure them back on your lap!!

The o/b crew were wrong to allow your baby to sleep on the floor, the i/b crew were 100% correct in my view.

VAA Flight Saftey regulations state that Bassinettes/skycots;

Are not to be occupied at any time when the fasten seatbelt sign is on
Are not permitted on the floor of the aircraft
Must be securely fixed to the bulkhead by the cabin crew

There was a memo out a few months ago reminding crew that babies must not be allowed on the floor.

In a rapid decompression I would like to see you get your baby and secure them back on your lap!!

The o/b crew were wrong to allow your baby to sleep on the floor, the i/b crew were 100% correct in my view.

so sorry to hear what a bad flight you had

i am in a similar position with my flight lgw-mco in november
i have never flown uc before and also never flown with a todler before , mine will be 18 months old when we go

in my mind i had thought we would make a bed out of the duvet just like you said you did but after reading this i have now decide he will not sleep on the floor even if they were to allow us

as for the sky cot issue i thought that they were onlty for use up to the age of 1?

one question is it ok for the todlers to stand on the floor occasionaly as sitting still for 9 hours is unreasonable i feel

steve

[Pete]

Hi Steve,

I think this comes down to basic common sense as a parent, also combined with your acquired knowledge of safety onboard. Obviously your duties as parent never take a break, so it's wise to keep an eye on the little mites to make sure they're not putting themselves or others in danger. Frequent escorted trips around the cabin can help break up a long flight, and if you've got a good hold on your kids then the dangers of unexpected turbulence can be minimised.

For most parents this comes instinctively, so I'm sure you'll have no problem. The ones that make me grind my teeth are the ones that think the FA is their personal nanny and they can relinquish responsibility for their little darlings as soon as they get on board - and the ensuing chaos proceeds to ruin the flight for 90% of the other passengers, regardless of the safety issues. This, sadly, applies to all cabins.

Pix

Hi There,

Just to add my opinion on this:-

As a Virgin crew member I would suggest you contact Virgin Atlantic with regards to your flight. It would seem that the crew on the o/b flight did not adhere to safety regulations and that is the primary reason for us being there. As previously said you should have been seated in row 11 however there is a possibility that these seats were already occupied. Even so the ground agents should have informed you at check in of this.

I am amazed you were not allowed to stow your pram, to my knowledge it is company policy that upper class passengers can bring prams into the cabin and space permitting economy passengers are sometimes allowed too, although this is the exception rather than the rule. I am sorry that this was not offered to you, I would suggest you raise this concern in your complaint letter also.

A sky cot should have been offered to you over an economy passengers however there are normally enough onboard for the amount of skycot tables so this should not occur. As you were not seated in a row that had a table that is probably the reason why they had run out. Regardless of whether there were any available or not, really you should not have been offered one anyway. As mentioned already the inbound crew did completely follow the correct procedures.

I understand your comments about adults not being enforced to strap in all the time and what about when you are in the toilets/walking around the cabin, however the procedure really is designed to minimise any risk. As you would be seated the majority of the journey it does make sense to ensure you are as secure and safe as possible.

In an ideal world all passengers would have their seat belt fastened throughout, yet this probably will never happen. Just listen to the clicks of the belts unfastening as soon as the wheels touch down! As an airline we cannot enforce passengers to be belted throughout unless the CAA decide otherwise however we do suggest this in the welcome onboard pa.

I would really encourage you to write in, as a crew member who sticks to the safety regulations religiously it is enormously frustrating when passengers think you are satan's daughter because you are forbidding them to do something they were allowed to do on a previous flight.

I hope this has not damaged your view of Virgin too much. Alas some crew will turn a blind eye for the sake of an easy flight but they are few and far between. Feedback is the way we can move forward as an airline and the company do welcome it.

Let us know Virgin's response on this one.

southrnbelle i hope you are crew on my flight
you just talk common sence and not only that but in a nice way too
steve

quote:Originally posted by southernbelle
A sky cot should have been offered to you over an economy passengers...

Threads been quiet for a while so wouldn't normally reopen - but I've only just read this as I was searching for policies on carrying infants and children - We will be heading MCO next April with a 2 year old and a 3 month old.

Assuming that all the Economy passengers had requested the sky cots in advance, whereas, like in this case, the UC passenger had not - how would a FA explain to the Y passenger that the sky cot they had requested was not available. My personal feeling here is that he who asks (in advance as required), gets. Class should not determine a childs safety.

Phil (Buffy)

[Decker]

Sky cots are about convenience not safety surely? If they were safety then VS would have to provide them for all ticketed infants? Or am I missing something here?

As skycots should be requested prior to the flight (i.e. when you book your seats you have to confirm how many children under 2 and their age to Virgin) Virgin should have enough Skycots for the amount of children to take the flight? (plus a couple of extras )

i9 thought sky cots were for under 1's only

steve