Cabin Crew Pay Update *2nd NOV*

[ChuckC]

Dear Voice,

Welcome to V-Flyer. Your lengthy post fills in some details for all who are interested in the crew pay issue. Thanks for making clear your intentions.

The nature of V-Flyer is not to serve as a mouthpiece for management, but as an independent source of information and discussion for all those interested in Virgin Atlantic. The moderators like everyone else here have points of view and the comments are rarely totally pro-crew or pro-management. As we've commented many times before and on a wide range of issues, when management gets it right, you are likely to hear a loud chorus of 'thank yous' from V-Flyers, including one or more moderators. The same is true of crew: time and again you will hear our members extolling the virtues of certain crew whose personality and service make the traveling experience delightful.

That there are dissenting voices in the pay crew debate reflects no less respect for our VS team members, many of whom serve with brilliance.

The one conclusion that can be drawn from the discussion to-date is that there is not yet a consensus among V-Flyers and the crew who are voluntarily supplying their individual POV, on a fair resolution to management and crew's competing proposals.

Chuck-

Over the past few years, I have heard many pax complain (myself included) about the attitudes of SOME staff-members. These same CC are likely to put off flyers and lose VS business. If these crew were able to to get their act together, I'm sure VS would get more repeat business and thus perform better financially. As a result, the value of the crew to VS would be greater and an above inf. pay-rise would be viable.
On SQ, for example, the crew, in my opinion, are the airline's greatest asset. In contrast, the LHR CH and the physical product (seats, IFE) are probably VS' biggest selling point. If the CC who fail to perform to an acceptable standard followed the lead of their colleagues, the cabin crew of VS could rival those of SQ, CX and the other big names for service. Therefore, a pay-rise would definitely be both economically viable and a suitable reward.

45.

In all fairness Alan when you say 'Also, on other forums, Virgin CC are talking about wanting the strike to be at the start and at the end of the next school break, to give the most hurt to the passenger' I'm fairly certain that tactic is aimed at the company and not specifically at the passengers, though the effect is the same.

It's hardly a new tactic in industrial action to schedule it during peak business periods and should the cabin crew have to take industrial action then that is certainly one tactic open to them.

However if I was flying during that period with my family I can safely say I would never fly VS again (that wont be the case mind you, plus I'll make sure now that if I need to fly during that period and this isnt settled that I book on an alternate carrier).

VS045,
its interesting you say that. Many VS Crew have held up the salaries that BA crew get as a yardstick.

This thread on another forum http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=731389

About the attitude of staff on a BA flight is well worth a read, as it seems on many postings on other forums that BA have as much if not more I would say a problem with some crew teams than even Virgin.

[Darren Wheeler]

I have noticed that on other crew forums where the pay dispute has been discussed, anyone who tries to post a reasoned comment in favour of the offer is immediately dennounced as a management plant. As the forums are in the public domain and easily found with Google, they don't excatly show the CC in the best light.

Guys

I am not really interested in a long drawn out debate on this, after all what will be will be. Though I just wanted to address a couple of comments.

My post included the details of the offers to date such that you as customers could perhaps see the reason for the strong no votes. All most of the crew want is RPI with no strings attached. It was not to air dirty laundry in public. Maybe some did not know the reasons behind the No votes ? the strings attached etc - perhaps a few people will maybe see that the crew were not being totally self centred and mindless in their votes.

Decker - I have to say in all seriousness you have a fantastic command of the Queens English, I have spent considerably time on http://www.dictionary.com today after reading (and in my small mind translating) your responses. I am not interested in a flame war just thought as mentioned above I would share the details 3 offers to date to fill in the gaps and my choice of nickname was what popped into my head, will change it if you want to 'filling_in_the_gaps' [:)]

Pay related to performance would be a great thing in my mind [y]- though performance monitoring is already subjective in Virgin to a degree so I'm sure would open up a bigger can of worms amongst the crew.[n]

However why not allocate pay to more senior ranks, Senior, CSS, FSM -You have to perform well to be offered interviews in these roles, that would go some part to rewarding hard work and those who just want the £11k to travel the world as a junior for a year not worried about advancement would not be as well rewarded as those who do work hard [:?]

Regarding 'invest and innovate to stay on top and attract customers' in relation to spending on customer facilities (e.g. club houses) - I agree with you.

However one has to invest in ones staff also. If the cost as mentioned above is 4M GBP the question was asked then where should the funds come from ? [i] maybe the same place the funds come from to pay for new club houses or other such large investments.

I personally (again personal opinion)think this would just be an indirect investment for the customer - it has been mentioned if the staff are not happy then their service towards passengers may suffer (as has been noted elsewhere on this forum ).

Just like VS45 says people chose different carriers for different reasons - seats, clubhouses, on board services, staff etc etc - Make the investment in things people/customers want and the company does better and more passengers travel, so far the company has been keenly investing in aircraft, cabins, club houses - now perhaps the staff should be invested in too.

As for the rights and wrongs of unions holding companies to ransom - I dont want to go down that route, that is another of lifes big differences of opinion. But in short, yes crew pay the unions to represent them and every department has the right to be represented appropriately. Just look at the amicus/unite website for examples.

All the best everyone enjoy the rest of the weekend
Regards[8D]

Originally posted by Voice_of_reason

Originally posted by Decker
I'm a little perplexed why on a non-VS affiliated site you would expect all mods to adopt a 'crew are always right' stance. We're all individuals and as such have differing views of the situation.

What was intended by my comment regarding moderator comments, it was not regarding 'crew are always right' (far from it) but was on the topic of a moderator stating if crew dont like it they should just move on - I was merely highlighting the seniority system within the airline sector makes that very difficult to do and I naively believed a moderator would be aware of this, apologies if the quoted mod was not aware of it, below are snippets of the quotes I was trying to address.

[Jerseyboy - If you love your job but your employer does not reward you duly for all the duties you undertake then seek employment with a new employer in the same sector.


Best Regards

p.s. edited to add, sorry if my post came across as arrogant, not intentional, was just trying to be factual and stating my personal observations

Would that be something to do with the positions of senior cabin crew being carried out by unqualified but highly skilled and experienced individuals?

Cheers Jerseyboy

P.S I have never come across one single cabin crewmember on Virgin who did not deserve their wages and some more.

Dear Ones:

I thought at this juncture in a long and intellectually tortuous journey (aka The Long March), I would offer a few random surmises:

* Decker is obviously a secret investor in dictionary.com, as he drives more hits to that site than any other word-hoarding man, woman, child or typing cat in the Christian world. However, instead of leveling a cavil in his direction, I should instead thank him very much (so, erm, 'Thank you very much, Decker!') for always teaching me a new word or two, and for always arguing his points in such a way as to remind us that the human brain is a wondrous instrument, indeed.

* I just bought $700 in new bedding yesterday -- 600-count sheets, duvet cover, pillow shams, the works -- in short, everything one needs to have a nice time in bed. My fervent hope is that the final pay deal for VA CC will allow them to experience this level of cotton nirvana.

* The topic of information sharing on this Web site has me convinced that I stand in opposition to the vast majority of fellow members and visitors when I say that I think the internal view I from time to time see here is valuable in helping me to form an educated opinion, and, on top of it, is an expression of the internet's power and, dare I say, its core freeware/unfettered info sharing guiding principle. Now, I know that posting certain sensitive information could get Pete in some legal trouble, but the terms of a contract -- however tentative or secret -- are truly interesting to see, if only to understand more completely the variety of opinions posted hereon. I say this as a non-shareholder. I might have a slightly different view if the release of said information caused my investment to drop but I also know that by adopting said stance, I'd be a money-grubbing hypocrite.

* Passive aggressive emoticons suck.

Thank you for the chance to share my views.

GJ

Originally posted by GrinningJackanapes
Dear Ones:

I thought at this juncture in a long and intellectually tortuous journey (aka The Long March), I would offer a few random surmises:


* I just bought $700 in new bedding yesterday -- 600-count sheets, duvet cover, pillow shams, the works -- in short, everything one needs to have a nice time in bed. My fervent hope is that the final pay deal for VA CC will allow them to experience this level of cotton nirvana.


GJ

That's cheep GJ normally a decent full set 600 thread Egyptian cotton costs us about $1,200.00

Where did you get it? Please forward web address if they have one

Cheers Jerseyboy

Originally posted by firsttimer
I don't post very often but feel I must post on this. Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of the Virgin cabin crews' 'right' to strike, I really feel for the passengers, not the business passengers who are on flexible fares, but the rest of us who have worked hard to be able to afford to fly wherever in whatever class to go on holiday. What happens to us? Many of us are on cheapest (i.e. not flexible) fares who are unable to move to another airline. Call me selfish but I for one will be very upset if I miss valuable holiday time that I have looked forward to for nearly a year. [V]


Clare

Answer seems to be that we, as paying passengers, are left with precious few rights. I agree with all your comments, it's what has and will stop me from flying BA unless I have no other choice. A good name takes so long to build up, and such a short time to lose.

[Decker]

and a view from the flight deck

[Pete]

Originally posted by Voice_of_reason

I am not really interested in a long drawn out debate on this, after all what will be will be.

Then perhaps you shouldn't have dipped your toe in the water. You thought you could post your lengthy opinion in a (at the time) 9-page thread, and think that would end the debate? [;)]

Originally posted by Voice_of_reason

I was merely highlighting the seniority system within the airline sector makes that very difficult to do and I naively believed a moderator would be aware of this, apologies if the quoted mod was not aware of it, below are snippets of the quotes I was trying to address.

Pete (Mod) - Surely this was all part of the job description when you joined? If not, then certainly you might have a case for arguing an appropriate increase, but it is not a valid argument for an incumbent in a job to state the job description they currently have is suddenly worth more than they had initially accepted without other reasons.

Since you went to the trouble of highlighting my post as being based on a na•ve belief, please read it again. I was pointing out if the job is now different to the job you initially accepted, then you have a very good case for negotiation. If the job description is broadly similar, then your arguments hold less truck. At the time of posting, I wasn't privy to the full history of the offer, so it is a little disingenuous to use my post as an example in your justification.

After reading many of the comments, including the quite incisive points made by the VS pilot on the other forum, I fully believe CC deserve more, but doubt the airline could afford what you'd actually be happy with. There's been some very emotive language used here, and in many other public forums. But the fact it is all in public is going to do both sides no favours.

Originally posted by Voice_of_reason
What was intended by my comment regarding moderator comments, it was not regarding 'crew are always right' (far from it) but was on the topic of a moderator stating if crew dont like it they should just move on - I was merely highlighting the seniority system within the airline sector makes that very difficult to do and I naively believed a moderator would be aware of this, apologies if the quoted mod was not aware of it, below are snippets of the quotes I was trying to address.

mdvipond - if you come to dislike the terms, the pay or just the job in general, get the hell out and find terms/pay/a job that you do like. Don't inflict your disatisfaction upon us poor mugs (ie. your customers) with 'industrial action' just because you're unhappy with your lot.

I'd just like to say - despite my alleged naivety - I still stand by my comments. As Alan pointed out, yours isn't the only a career where moving jobs can mean a loss of seniority. The same applies to people in an awful lot of industry sectors nowadays - them's the breaks, I'm afraid.

It appears to me that for some crew posting on here, the justification for potential industrial action seems to be based on a belief that their chosen career is somehow more 'special' than others. You do a really great job, often under difficult circumstances, and you get paid far from a fortune for it, but you knew that when you chose your career. Be honest now - was the dosh really a driving factor when you persued a career as cabin crew?

Rest assured, there are far less fulfilling jobs out there that will pay you more than you're getting now if that's what you want.

We have just been informed by Unite our union of the followng:

Following the recent rejection of the Company's pay offer, Unite will be conducting an Industrial Action Ballot. As this falls under legislative requirements, the Ballot will be administered from our Legal Department, and distributed by the Electoral Reform Service. We have informed the Company of our intention to carry out this process, and the timescale for distribution should be within the next 14 days. After distribution, the ballot will have a 3 week return period.

At this juncture, It is not our intention to have a further consultative ballot as you have quite clearly signalled to Unite, that the substantial majority of members wish to participate in Industrial Action as a means to secure a wage offer that reflects the dedication and professionalism of Virgin Atlantic Cabin Crew.

Thanks.

VCSS,
I take it that this is the full memeo as posted on another site?

'Following the recent rejection of the Company's pay offer, I can now inform you that Unite will be conducting an Industrial Action Ballot. As this falls under legislative requirements, the Ballot will be administered from our Legal Department, and distributed by the Electoral Reform Service. We have informed the Company of our intention to carry out this process, and the timescale for distribution should be within the next 14 days. After distribution, the ballot will have a 3 week return period.

We will be meeting with the Company on 19th and 20th September in the hope that they may improve their current offer. If they are able to do so, you will be asked to vote on whether or not you wish to accept an improved offer. As this will be contained under the Industrial Action Ballot, any rejection will automatically invoke the need for Industrial Action. If the Company do not improve their offer, the Industrial Action Ballot will be a straight vote for Industrial Action in pursuit of the original wage claim, with any items negotiated to date in all probability being withdrawn by the Company.

At this juncture, It is not our intention to have a further consultative ballot as you have quite clearly signalled to Unite, that the substantial majority of members wish to participate in Industrial Action as a means to secure a wage offer that reflects the dedication and professionalism of Virgin Atlantic Cabin Crew.

Finally, as we are now entering a crucial period in the current dispute, I would stress the importance of ensuring 'all' work colleagues join Unite, and support the efforts being made on behalf of Virgin Atlantic Cabin Crew members. Your continued support is necessary if we are to bring an amicable conclusion to this matter.'

So if I read correctly, there will be further negotiations on September 19th or 20th, so do ballots get distributed after that time, or are they being distributed now, and the three weeks starts from that point? In essence are we talking 5 weeks from today or 5 weeks from the 20th?

Brillient looks like my holiday I have worked the last 11 months to pay for might go down the swanny, brillient thanks very much, yet another annual dose of Virgin induced stress. I will look forward to explaining to my 8 year old nephew what a pay dispute is.

I want you to get a good deal, try not to use us customers as your bargaininng chips.

We're on the same flight as you egg, we'll just have to hope we're not affected.

Well, I have a small company and to-date our trips to the US and Australasia have been with VAA. if we have to cancel meetings/exhibitions etc as a result of any strike action, we'll never fly with Virgin again. Fluffy lounges in no way up for a reliable scheduled carrier letting me down.

[fozzyo]

Lets not jump the gun yet guys!

Originally posted by fozzyo
Lets not jump the gun yet guys!

I did say 'if'...

Virgin are a good airline to both fly on and work for, yet the cost of living and the poor exchange rates with the USA means that crew need more money to live... if they cant live then there will be no crew to operate your next flight as they will all be ill through mall nourishment of bread and baked beans...

Only joking but economic factors that have hit the airlines such as fuel prices and rising costs also hits us as crew.. we just want a fair pay for the jobs we do.

we keep you safe in the sky and many passengers will never know all the extra security procedure we now have to do before you board ( and I cant divulge but there are lots) we have never had any increase in pay for this extra work yet the airlines collect extra security levys of you in tax.

I dont think it will come to a strike the company and senior management are at our check-in areas speaking to crew and listening to our concerns every day at the moment.

I dont want to strike there are other ways of protesting without striking, why should the customer suffer?

I don't want you to strike either this holiday cost me £7000 and I don't want to lose it, I also want you to be paid well, what to do?

[preiffer]

Bit of an 'out-of-the-box'/radical idea, but why not consider giving yourselves a £119/year pay rise, immediately?

Stop paying Amicus' directors THEIR huge salaries (no, they're NOT in it just for 'the greater good of Mankind' [ii]) and pocket the cash yourselves... [:w][:?]