Originally posted by AlanA
As you work in IT you would not be able to stand the real world and the management flair needed to keep jobs in this country.
Nor would I make dumb arse assumptions about you [B)]
Nor would I make dumb arse assumptions about you [B)]
There's a plane at JFK, to fly you back from far away
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
all those dark and frantic transatlantic miles
Time for one of those 'Calm down' post?
I am curious as to what the 40% who voted no and the non-union members will do. After all, this is only, AFAIK, only affecting CC. Pilots, check-in agents, CH staff, ground crew, all non-UK staff etc. etc. are not threatening industrial action (remember, secondary action is illegal) and some flights will be able to run.
Also, what happens with CC who are out of the UK on the day of any potential strike? As they have withdrawn their labour and are not being paid anymore, VS can technically not pay any hotel bills etc. Lots of questions to be answered.
I am curious as to what the 40% who voted no and the non-union members will do. After all, this is only, AFAIK, only affecting CC. Pilots, check-in agents, CH staff, ground crew, all non-UK staff etc. etc. are not threatening industrial action (remember, secondary action is illegal) and some flights will be able to run.
Also, what happens with CC who are out of the UK on the day of any potential strike? As they have withdrawn their labour and are not being paid anymore, VS can technically not pay any hotel bills etc. Lots of questions to be answered.
Thanks
Darren
Darren
Yes, this is the calm down please post.
As has been said many times before, this is a highly emotive topic with strong opinions on many levels.
There have been some excellent, reasoned posts in this thread and it has become one of the biggest, not to mention widest read threads we have had.
It is possible to put your point(s) across, without insulting or attempting to belittle other contributors.
We don't like to censor or close threads, but the forum rules are quite specific. We like strong debate, we don't like needless mud slinging.
This topic has a long way to run yet. The fact that VS crew have turned down the latest pay offer is hitting the news media, so the subject is back in the public eye again.
Please keep the debate civil, or we will have to shut the thread.
Nick
As has been said many times before, this is a highly emotive topic with strong opinions on many levels.
There have been some excellent, reasoned posts in this thread and it has become one of the biggest, not to mention widest read threads we have had.
It is possible to put your point(s) across, without insulting or attempting to belittle other contributors.
We don't like to censor or close threads, but the forum rules are quite specific. We like strong debate, we don't like needless mud slinging.
This topic has a long way to run yet. The fact that VS crew have turned down the latest pay offer is hitting the news media, so the subject is back in the public eye again.
Please keep the debate civil, or we will have to shut the thread.
Nick
Latest from Virgin:
We have been informed by Unite that they will conduct a formal Industrial Action Ballot.
I can confirm that this package stays 'on the table' for the duration of the industrial action ballot.
I want to be clear that this was the best offer we could afford, therefore we will not be entering into further negotiations.
We are now entering a very uncertain and damaging phase as the talking and negotiating has stopped and a series of procedures and rules come into effect, a number of which are outside of our hands.
It is a very bleak end to the year and one which we had hoped we would be able to avoid.
Above posted on cabincrew.com
We have been informed by Unite that they will conduct a formal Industrial Action Ballot.
I can confirm that this package stays 'on the table' for the duration of the industrial action ballot.
I want to be clear that this was the best offer we could afford, therefore we will not be entering into further negotiations.
We are now entering a very uncertain and damaging phase as the talking and negotiating has stopped and a series of procedures and rules come into effect, a number of which are outside of our hands.
It is a very bleak end to the year and one which we had hoped we would be able to avoid.
Above posted on cabincrew.com
I really hope there is no strike, for everyone's sake. It is very sad if the strike goes ahead, it could ruin things for everyone, Virgin, the crew and the passengers.
Have you any idea when any strike would be going ahead?
I notice the Times Online mentions Christmas/New Year (I suppose for maximum impact.
From your post Virgin are saying there will be no further negotiations, but I really can't see those 'no' voters backing down now.
Have you any idea when any strike would be going ahead?
I notice the Times Online mentions Christmas/New Year (I suppose for maximum impact.
From your post Virgin are saying there will be no further negotiations, but I really can't see those 'no' voters backing down now.
Originally posted by vscss
Latest from Virgin:
We have been informed by Unite that they will conduct a formal Industrial Action Ballot.
I can confirm that this package stays 'on the table' for the duration of the industrial action ballot.
I want to be clear that this was the best offer we could afford, therefore we will not be entering into further negotiations.
We are now entering a very uncertain and damaging phase as the talking and negotiating has stopped and a series of procedures and rules come into effect, a number of which are outside of our hands.
It is a very bleak end to the year and one which we had hoped we would be able to avoid.
Above posted on cabincrew.com
That 4th paragraph sounds very much like 'ok, now we're going to play hardball'.
I've stayed well out of this topic until now mainly as the only flights of mine that it may have affected were business ones but also because quite honestly everything had already been said.
However I now find myself in the very real possibility of being thrust into the front-line as our entire family is heading to see the in-laws in Florida for Christmas.
Can I just say that I fully support the efforts of the CC to have a 'decent' wage - although I think the point was made many pages ago about the inability to compare one airline with another as I believe the residual benefits for VS are somewhat better. Cabin crew who join in their early twenties do not live in a vacuum and what seems a great lifestyle and a liveable wage at this point in their lives is obviously not when they are married (hopefully) and have a family to support. While it is all very well to suggest that if they don't like it they should walk away that seems to make little sense on either side if the employee is enjoying their work and VS lose an experienced member of staff.
However I have to say that if (and I still think this is far from certain) there is a full-blown strike and our first holiday for almost two years is dramatically affected then my sympathy for the CC and respect for VS will dissapear. Now, delays I can live with - even a day or so, reductions in service - not good but OK, a change in airline - OK but Orlando at Christmas does not exactly have huge amounts of spare capacity. However if our holiday is effectively cancelled then I will be moving my business - and I don't care if BA was in the same boat a year or so ago - they will not have hurt me personally.
What I cannot understand is why unions see strikes as the only possible industrial action - surely there are other ways to make points. How about work to rules, refusal for overtime, removal of flexible working. Could flights fly with less CC but a reduced service - after all getting there is important for most people - not being fed and pampered in the air.
I really hope this all works out for everybody because I can assure the CC that, like many people here have said, strikes never work. Either everyone wins or everyone loses.
FM
However I now find myself in the very real possibility of being thrust into the front-line as our entire family is heading to see the in-laws in Florida for Christmas.
Can I just say that I fully support the efforts of the CC to have a 'decent' wage - although I think the point was made many pages ago about the inability to compare one airline with another as I believe the residual benefits for VS are somewhat better. Cabin crew who join in their early twenties do not live in a vacuum and what seems a great lifestyle and a liveable wage at this point in their lives is obviously not when they are married (hopefully) and have a family to support. While it is all very well to suggest that if they don't like it they should walk away that seems to make little sense on either side if the employee is enjoying their work and VS lose an experienced member of staff.
However I have to say that if (and I still think this is far from certain) there is a full-blown strike and our first holiday for almost two years is dramatically affected then my sympathy for the CC and respect for VS will dissapear. Now, delays I can live with - even a day or so, reductions in service - not good but OK, a change in airline - OK but Orlando at Christmas does not exactly have huge amounts of spare capacity. However if our holiday is effectively cancelled then I will be moving my business - and I don't care if BA was in the same boat a year or so ago - they will not have hurt me personally.
What I cannot understand is why unions see strikes as the only possible industrial action - surely there are other ways to make points. How about work to rules, refusal for overtime, removal of flexible working. Could flights fly with less CC but a reduced service - after all getting there is important for most people - not being fed and pampered in the air.
I really hope this all works out for everybody because I can assure the CC that, like many people here have said, strikes never work. Either everyone wins or everyone loses.
FM
Originally posted by Darren Wheeler
Also, what happens with CC who are out of the UK on the day of any potential strike? As they have withdrawn their labour and are not being paid anymore, VS can technically not pay any hotel bills etc. Lots of questions to be answered.
Indeed lots of questions and heated comments understandably on here today ! The question about down route is a good one, I'm sure a Q&A sheet will be produced with such issues. Perhaps if crew have concerns about this and the company states it would not look after them down route they may not even operate the outbounds !? I'm sure people will be asking BA crew what happened with them when they striked - I recall some outbound flights were cancelled and the flight crew just positioned the aircraft around. Hopefully an amicable solution can be achieved.
if I have it right, you work 900 hours per year.
that is a part time job work levels?
that equates to 18.75 hours per week at a basic rate of £11 per hour.
Add on all your enhancements on to of that £11 per hour basic.
That's pretty good even for a full time job.
Many engineers working 37 hours a week are only on £25,000 per annum, around £14 per hour, with no enhancements.
that is a part time job work levels?
that equates to 18.75 hours per week at a basic rate of £11 per hour.
Add on all your enhancements on to of that £11 per hour basic.
That's pretty good even for a full time job.
Many engineers working 37 hours a week are only on £25,000 per annum, around £14 per hour, with no enhancements.
I have to say (once again) I am fully behind the cabin crew in this.
I can understand what they are trying to get, and that is a fair deal from VS for reasons already discussed. While I agree that industrial action (striking) means that a lot of people's plans will go tits up, I think that whether people like it or not, the only option left is to strike as it is clear that negotiations have got people nowhere and a compromise isn't likely to be reached any time soon.
My two cents.
I can understand what they are trying to get, and that is a fair deal from VS for reasons already discussed. While I agree that industrial action (striking) means that a lot of people's plans will go tits up, I think that whether people like it or not, the only option left is to strike as it is clear that negotiations have got people nowhere and a compromise isn't likely to be reached any time soon.
My two cents.
As far as I understand, Cabin Crew down route would have to operate as they are technically already at work. I assume there would still be some flights operating but they're likely to be on minimum crew and some qualified management may be flying.
I voted yes to the recent pay deal; this is where we see if the Cabin Crew who voted No have the fortitude to follow through with the strike ballot - I think it's fair to say that if the crew fail to strike then we'll never be taken seriously by the company in the future. Also, it's a shame the union rep went to the press unnecessarily - I don't think this has to be ALL over the media until any passengers have to make other arrangements.
I voted yes to the recent pay deal; this is where we see if the Cabin Crew who voted No have the fortitude to follow through with the strike ballot - I think it's fair to say that if the crew fail to strike then we'll never be taken seriously by the company in the future. Also, it's a shame the union rep went to the press unnecessarily - I don't think this has to be ALL over the media until any passengers have to make other arrangements.
Going to the press will only result in one thing - making holidaymakers (not business travellers) very nervous about possible disruption to their holidays.
Holidays are something to look forward to, but people will now start to worry and in turn will lose all sympathy with cabin crew; let's face it, the person going on holiday is only concerned with going on their long awaited holiday and nothing else.
To be honest, I am very worried about my upcoming holiday. Given the choice I would cancel my ticket now and book with another carrier, however, I cannot do this until firm strike dates are announced. At that time if the strike date is the date I am meant to be flying, I won't wait around and see if a deal can be struck, I will be off to the other side like a shot to safeguard my holiday, sorry, but that's how I feel.
Holidays are something to look forward to, but people will now start to worry and in turn will lose all sympathy with cabin crew; let's face it, the person going on holiday is only concerned with going on their long awaited holiday and nothing else.
To be honest, I am very worried about my upcoming holiday. Given the choice I would cancel my ticket now and book with another carrier, however, I cannot do this until firm strike dates are announced. At that time if the strike date is the date I am meant to be flying, I won't wait around and see if a deal can be struck, I will be off to the other side like a shot to safeguard my holiday, sorry, but that's how I feel.
It would be incredibly foolish for VS CC to strike. Although many VS pax have already sworn off BA for various reasons, I for one wouldn't hesitate to start looking at US-based airlines (AA, DL, CO) for my transatlantic flights.
While I agree wholeheartedly that the cabin crew deserve more, striking does nobody any good whatsoever, and will just inconvenience the Y pax more than anything else -- a distinctly unpopulist move.
While I agree wholeheartedly that the cabin crew deserve more, striking does nobody any good whatsoever, and will just inconvenience the Y pax more than anything else -- a distinctly unpopulist move.
Meanwhile SRB seems totally oblivious to it all.
I know it is too early to draw the analogy of fiddling while Rome burns. I also accept that he has little or no involvement in the day to day operations of the airline, but he is till the figurehead, and it would be nice for him to get publicly involved in trying to resolve the issues - before strike days are announced, crew member is set against crew member, and the whole airline goes down the toilet.
Just my thoughts.
Nick
I know it is too early to draw the analogy of fiddling while Rome burns. I also accept that he has little or no involvement in the day to day operations of the airline, but he is till the figurehead, and it would be nice for him to get publicly involved in trying to resolve the issues - before strike days are announced, crew member is set against crew member, and the whole airline goes down the toilet.
Just my thoughts.
Nick
Oh yes - and if the only way the crew believe they can make progress is to strike then I support them. The withdrawal of labour is one of the only weapons left to the salaried employee. I'm sure that the crew have considered the personal financial loss this will cause them and if they strike I think this alone shows their resolve. I am not impressed by the militancy of some posters on other fora but if reasonable people believe that the only way forward is to strike then it is not for me to second guess them. Regardless of my views on how self damaging this might be it is an issue between the company and the employee. Crew are breaking no contracts with me by striking.
I would expect the 40% who were for the offer to cooperate with the 60% who were not. If roles were reversed the same would be expected.
And FWIW I've got a flight with VS in December too.
I would expect the 40% who were for the offer to cooperate with the 60% who were not. If roles were reversed the same would be expected.
And FWIW I've got a flight with VS in December too.
Originally posted by VS075
I have to say (once again) I am fully behind the cabin crew in this.
I can understand what they are trying to get, and that is a fair deal from VS for reasons already discussed. While I agree that industrial action (striking) means that a lot of people's plans will go tits up, I think that whether people like it or not, the only option left is to strike as it is clear that negotiations have got people nowhere and a compromise isn't likely to be reached any time soon.
My two cents.
I think if my holiday was a long way off then I could say the same as you. It is a different matter when our holidays are within the time scale for the strikes if they go ahead.
Meanwhile SRB seems totally oblivious to it all.
I totally agree with you Nick, I think the involvement of SRB as a figurehead or anything else may be the key to this issue. Despite sideswipes of offshore bank accounts etc by CC, I suspect (happy to be corrected if wrong) that most still respect him, and what he stands for.
I'd further add that it is about time the company side of things had a leader rather than seemingly wandering through this aimlessly as I feel it has the last few months.
Finally, I think it an important to distinction to make that the CC are not out to ruin our trips and holidays, just to make a stand for something they believe in. I as a passenger don't want to be at the wrong end of this, but they have my respect for standing up for themselves.
Now... if everyone acts with a bit of sense, this could be sorted out in a couple of weeks. Here's hoping...
While I appreciate that some feel a strike is a tool to be valued because it is one of the few employees possess in negotiating, I don't think it's the best way to go about achieveing a pay rise (i.e. above inflation and then some) because a wage at all, if not what would be desired in an ideal world, is better than no wage whatsoever if the airline suffers.
I thought the offered pay-deal was actually favourable.
45.
I thought the offered pay-deal was actually favourable.
45.
Alan the 900 hours is flying hours NOT total working hours. As you can imagine the crew actually have to 'check-in' (approx 2 hours before) & carry out other duties. On top of this they have training/administrative duties which are also not included in the 900 hours. So perhaps a little more than 'part time'.
As you mention the airline industry is going through some changes with the charter airlines integrating and other airlines like Globespan & TCD cutting back, but this doesn't just impact CC. Having said that there are CC jobs being advertised & VS have competition getting the cream of the crop.
You also like blaming the union & its Red Robbo attitude, you miss the point that the union actually recommended its members to accept the last two offers. It's the crew that have decided they've had enough.
I think another point being missed is what the CC do want?? Is it just about money??
Did the union AND the management have decent dialogue with the CC about what they really wanted to achieve?? So who's to blame for the current situation??
As you mention the airline industry is going through some changes with the charter airlines integrating and other airlines like Globespan & TCD cutting back, but this doesn't just impact CC. Having said that there are CC jobs being advertised & VS have competition getting the cream of the crop.
You also like blaming the union & its Red Robbo attitude, you miss the point that the union actually recommended its members to accept the last two offers. It's the crew that have decided they've had enough.
I think another point being missed is what the CC do want?? Is it just about money??
Did the union AND the management have decent dialogue with the CC about what they really wanted to achieve?? So who's to blame for the current situation??
It would be interesting to see how many responded to the last ballot, and whether 60% of that number is indeed a majority of the cabin crew overall. Either way, it seems like a weak percentage to be approaching a strike ballot with, and wouldn't be surprised if the strike vote is a 'no', leading to a withdrawal of the current offer as the company doesn't have to negotiate 'under duress'.
Now it's out there in the press, the damage is being done with the public perception of the airline. The impact on VS bookings will no-doubt be swift.
Now it's out there in the press, the damage is being done with the public perception of the airline. The impact on VS bookings will no-doubt be swift.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 164 guests