Cabin Crew Pay Update *2nd NOV*

Originally posted by Denzil
Alan the 900 hours is flying hours NOT total working hours. As you can imagine the crew actually have to 'check-in' (approx 2 hours before) & carry out other duties. On top of this they have training/administrative duties which are also not included in the 900 hours. So perhaps a little more than 'part time'.

As you mention the airline industry is going through some changes with the charter airlines integrating and other airlines like Globespan & TCD cutting back, but this doesn't just impact CC. Having said that there are CC jobs being advertised & VS have competition getting the cream of the crop.

You also like blaming the union & its Red Robbo attitude, you miss the point that the union actually recommended its members to accept the last two offers. It's the crew that have decided they've had enough.

I think another point being missed is what the CC do want?? Is it just about money??
Did the union AND the management have decent dialogue with the CC about what they really wanted to achieve?? So who's to blame for the current situation??

Denzil, in ALL businesses people have long commutes and unpaid for time both at the start and finish of their official hours, none of them get paid for that.
a 1.5 hour to 2 hour commute can be the norm for many working in London who are on less than Cabin crew all told.

I feel that there is an element within the Cabin crew who are using the general unhgappiness to manipulate the crew. Other forums have said as much, with stories of crew being pressurised on flights, attacks on the union in other forums and attacks on anyone who disagrees with the WDMM gang being called management stooges and now even scabs.
This is EXACTLY what happened in the seventies.
The union, professionals at their job have recommended the deals, they have negotiated long and I would think hard on these.

The problem now is that the CC have painted themselves into a corner with only two bad outcomes left to happen.

Too many think they can 'win' totally and get everything they want. Its not going to happen. VS cannot afford now to let this happen. Bad management in the seventies did roll over and were pushed around to such and extent that the businesses became totally unworkable, unprofitable and uncompetative against foreign competition. With the open skies agreement, this is the future for British airlines unless they cut costs and be seen as reliable carriers.

If VS 'give in' to the CC demands then all the other sections will up the anti, plus negotiations for next round start at an unworkable level. The airline rapidly either goes into decline, with a reputation for strikes, or the majority of the jobs get outsourced and put to contract for quick removal of staff and the use of foreign cheaper staff wherever possible, even foreign bases. You don't need to live in the UK to crew an airline now.

If the CC 'give in' then the airline will still look at ways of ensuring that this does not become a on going problem, the union loses members as they feel let down.

You will never get back the money you will lose by striking, and I do not think you will get the backing of outsourced ground staff to make the strike a short one.

This will live in the passengers minds for a long time, and they will move airlines, especially the high revenue buisnessmen who cannot afford to have such delays. Once lost they are hard to get back.
VS has already lost the uniquness it had against other airlines, and this will puch many over the edge, causing loss of valuable revenue, flights and as a consequence, CC jobs.

Alan, not sure you understood. This is not commuting time (i do actually understand what that means), but work time. The 900 hours is FLYING HOURS, for a flight leaving at 10am the crew must be at work for 8am & carry out briefings etc.

As for the rest of your post, there is pressure from both sides. What in your mind is pressure on which way to vote, a few crew saying vote no or senior management (everybody below SRB) being at crew check in saying vote yes.

I understand your constant references to the seventies, but this is not a workforce that is always demanding more. Read what has been said, it's not all about money. As an example, are you an 9-5/Mon-Fri worker? How would you fancy having 5 X 1 month blocks in every 3 year cycle in which you have no idea what you are doing & where you are going to??

So do you carry on blaming the crew or the management for allowing things to degenerate to such a level??

Originally posted by virgin is the best
Word is it's a big no to the latest offer 60% voted no.
we are now going to be voting for strike.
I will be voting that we don't go on strike. I voted yes for this offer.
If the majorty vote yes to strike and it goes ahead I will be stopping my union membership and will be going to work to help as virgin get as many flights out as poss. I would urge all other memebers who votes yes this time round to do the same.

A big Thank you.....Music to the ears for those of us that will be required to manage the disruption to all of OUR customers on the ground....

I worked through 2 strikes at my previous company....they never got over it and if this strike goes ahead the damage will be irreversable, believe me, for both our customers and your colleagues.

I have just got home from an 18 hour day at LHR by the way, including the 2.5 hour commute both ways...I do it because I chose to work with our customers and try to deliver a decent standard of service when all around us is coming to a grind...

We all know the salary when we take on the roles...by striking you will be putting all our jobs at risk..Please think long and hard before you vote yes to strike action. [V]

hi i just wanted to comment on this forum as i am a reletively new crew member at virgin, i have been with them for 8 months now and still get excited about going to work, i cant imagine doing anything else, i truely love my job. Also this site was a wealth of knowledge and inspiration when i was waiting to start my course and still is. however, i do feel there is quite alot of hostility on here recently and to some extent it's justified.

i have saved for 2 years just to do a holiday (went with a charter cause i couldn't afford virgin!) and the experience was great, to be honest i cant tell you much about the flight as all i was concerned with was my food/drink and the films! so i entirely understand how those of you with flights in the next month or so must feel. I personally would be looking at other carriers.

I would like to piont out however that for most of us crew, it isn't just about the money. I voted no to the last deal mainly because of the conditions that came with it, and airshare was not one of them. When that deal came out i remember chatting to a few crew members about it, and for us we were more concerned with the conditions like taking a crew member off the A340-600. Which would mean a below standard service on a full flight. also the standby months increase was unexceptable.

As im sure you are aware we have recently changed the config on our LHR 747's but are you aware that we have lost crew on this aircraft and there are still only 2 crew member for premium even though the numbers have almost doubled! a look at the TR's for this aircraft will prove that the premium service on these aircraft is now deemed to be very slow.

I dont want to strike, i really don't want to disrupt or dissapiont anyone who is travelling, especially over the xmas period. Also for the record i love my MCO flight as do alot of crew. the whole 'crew hate MCO flights' comes from months ago when we had a really bad hotel and the allowence was very low. now we have a fab hotel with good shopping and allowences. I've had some of my best flights/trips there. I do want a fair wage but also i want to work for an airline that is still considered to be something special.

i think i'm between a rock and a hard place

firstly I would like to say that even though I would have liked to seen a few other enhancements to the Company offer, I still voted yes and accepted the latest offer. Nobody wins in a strike and if it goes ahead to strike I will be following the same as 'Virgin Is the best' by cancelling my Unite membership and doing my best to operate flights.

How ever there are other ways that the workforce could put pressure on the company without actually striking... work to rule etc.

This is not just about pay but on a number of broken promises and poor management decisions over the last few years, which they know and are now acting too late to reslove.

I hope my colleagues know the consequences in voting to strike? Are they aware that the impact on losing customer confidence on sales? That actually to continue to pay the staff current salaries they will most likely have to cut routes and jobs... back to post 911. I would guess that most of the crew voting no were of lower rank and are to naive to think beyond the pound signs. as their jobs are most likely the first jobs that will go if this were to happen.

However all that said the company should be looking to a more long term solution to the crew that win most of the awards for the company. Why should other departments get profit share based on shift pay, Other departments get shift pay included in their pension contributions, most departments can apply for promotion and not rely on a flawed system.

So its not all about pay, Did you know most crew are forced to save all overseas allowances to bring home as a supplement to their basic pay. yet the Inland revenue are investigating Taxing this because its not being spent outside the UK. which poses the question why is the salary not adequate in the first place?

Finally did you know that certain aircraft no longer have a rest area, so on a 9 1/2 hour flight and a 11 hour day we dont have any breaks? now in an office that would be against EU working time directives.

In Closing I reiterate that I am against striking as neither customer of Crew will win. But the company should think hard about the long term!

just to add to my post that like milehigh if this thing goes to strick i will be cancelling my membership with the union and working. I would rather have a job with low pay than no job at all!

I have just got home from an 18 hour day at LHR by the way, including the 2.5 hour commute both ways...I do it because I chose to work with our customers and try to deliver a decent standard of service when all around us is coming to a grind...

We all know the salary when we take on the roles...by striking you will be putting all our jobs at risk..Please think long and hard before you vote yes to strike action. [V]

Without being involved in a crew V Groundstaff fight it should be noted you do get paid overtime! Which if you are traveling 2.5hrs each way to and from work that is about 100miles... To do that on ground staff shift patterns you are obviously being paid well. do you know crew have to be delayed several hours before any delay payment, and often don't even find out until at the airport when we could still be resting at a hotel so we can provide 110% service customers expect.

And most of the current situation would have been avoided if the 2% the rest of the company was offered had come the same way - without conditions.

A spectre is haunting Europe...

GJ

AlanA

Do you really only think crew work 900 hours a year or are you just stirring ? I see that Denzil has tried to enlighten you on this misonception, if you would like more details and actual hours worked per year please feel free to ask.

VoR

Thank you V-F CC; your posts have been both enlightening and encouraging[:)]

45.

Originally posted by Voice_of_reason
AlanA

Do you really only think crew work 900 hours a year or are you just stirring ? I see that Denzil has tried to enlighten you on this misonception, if you would like more details and actual hours worked per year please feel free to ask.

VoR

that is why i posteed it, to find out exactly the real situation regarding pay vs hours.

We have no actual figures to go on, just basics floating around and 900 hours.

What are the rates? Not the lowest just starting rate, but the actual majority of the cabin crew below supervisors rate?
How much do you get for away from home time?
What are the actual total hours worked in a year?
How much are the benefits worth?


Whilst I belive you have painted yourselves into a corner on this dispute, I do feel sorry for any of you doing the B & S routes if a strike occurs, whether its an all out or a phesed strike.

Businessmen will just book another a9irline and not fly with Virgin. Holidaymakers and VH passengers don't have that luxury in the main. You will be seen to have disrupted their flights, possibly made them miss days of their holiday then you will be stuck in a tube with them for 8 hours or so.

Hell hath no fury like a working class family who have missed some of their holiday!

Just a quick one as on the move but in response to your questions;

900 Hours is the CAA maximum on flying hours per annum, that is chock to chock. Duty hours which is the time you arrive at work, 2 hours before to the time you are off duty is considerably more. The maximum duty hours is 190 in 28 days, 2280 per annum - to put it in context a 9-5'er 40 hours a week x52 is 2000 per year (with no holiday)

Rates

FSM £22,972, CSS/Purser £18,259, Senior Crew £13,679 Standard Crew £11,530. That is the current basic with no yearly increments as in other airlines.

Allowances are paid down route, they vary per destination and length of trip and are to cover the costs of food & drink (similar to if a business man was on an overseas trip he/she would submit an expenses claim for the hotel bill which included food and drink). Many crew forgo the food and drink to try and bring back some of their allowances to boost their low basic and help with bills etc - i.e. take pot noodles with them aka Delsey Diners.

You get no pay fro time away from home, again different in other airlines e.g. charters and BA you get a duty rate per hour you are on duty or away, this does not exist in Virgin. Instead each rank receives a 'trip pay' supplement in their monthly pay pack e.g. these are junior £36.40, senior 37.40, supervisor £40 FSM £45.

So the package if you work 45 trips a year (what the company used to calculate the back pay in their offer) means on average you do 3.75 trips a month, sounds low in reality its more but there is holidays, ground training etc etc so this is the average.

When you put all the above into excel (I tried to post but format messy) then the take home after Tax & NI each month is circa

FSM £1458, CSS £1170, SCC £896.12, CC £768. Now that is lower than a normal monthly pay packet as it is the average over a year if a normal month is 4-5 trips obviously its a bit higher. e.g. 4 weeks holiday no trip pay etc etc

Total hours worked, if you add 2.5 hours per sector (2 hours before report and half hour after or however long travel is to place of rest down route that is technically your duty period). However in other companies you are paid 'duty pay' all the time you are away from home for your allowances so it could be argued being away from home you are 'at work'. Same as if Mr Smith goes to Dubai for a business conference for a week and someone asks his wife where he is she will say 'away with work for 5 days'.. as I say it's a grey area so trying to put an hourly pay on it is hard.

I hope that is useful.

Strikes don't work. Never have, never will. They are a useless and self-destructive tool touted by overpaid union bosses as a way to 'stick it' to management. They set employee against employee, they alienate customers and they ultimately do untold damage to the company in question. Then everyone loses. Well, everyone except the afore metioned, overpaid union bosses...

It's truly encouraging that the likes of virgin is the best, milehigh and johnvscrew have the good common sense to see this, regardless of their feelings on pay. Let's just hope that other crew can wake up to the hard facts of what strike action would really mean and pull back from the brink before it's too late.

[Decker]

http://news.independent.co.uk/people/pr ... 076965.ece

They have their place.

I forgot to mention above, please dont refer to the crew that voted no to the last deal as a militant minority, It was the majority and most of us are not militant. However I appreciate this is a customer forum and my view is in the minority. Those who sympathise and understand thank you.

[Pete]

Originally posted by Voice_of_reason
I forgot to mention above, please dont refer to the crew that voted no to the last deal as a militant minority, It was the majority and most of us are not militant. However I appreciate this is a customer forum and my view is in the minority. Those who sympathise and understand thank you.

Interesting point, VoR, but if 30% of the total crew aren't in the union, and it was 60% of the union ballot that voted no, even if 100% of ballots were returned (highly unlikely), that's still only 42% of the crew who have actively voted no.

[Pete]

Originally posted by Pete

Interesting point, VoR, but if 30% of the total crew aren't in the union, and it was 60% of the union ballot that voted no, even if 100% of ballots were returned (highly unlikely), that's still only 42% of the crew who have actively voted no.

I'm quoting myself now (first sign of madness, perhaps?) but just read on PPRuNe that it was 69% of union members who returned their ballot papers. So that's about 29% of cabin crew staff who actively voted no.

I have to admit to being shocked at the low pay quoted above. Indeed, things need to be improved.

However, how is it that Virgin has no problems getting CC with those conditions?

[Darren Wheeler]

Because there is more to any job than simple Pounds, Shillings and Pence.

In this day and age, can an airline be really thought of as belonging to one country, flag or economic order? There are British cockpit and cabin crew flying on airlines all over the world, earning the same salaries as cockpit and cabin crew from other countries, and it seems to work.

My question here is this - if VS does not pay you well, then why not work elsewhere? Why strike? Free economy is what the Western world wanted, right?

Originally posted by mogmog
My question here is this - if VS does not pay you well, then why not work elsewhere? Why strike? Free economy is what the Western world wanted, right?

This has been asked before (proof that the thread is going in circles again but don't blame you for asking considering the length of the thread), it's because a lot of the cabin crew love their job and, in particular, love Virgin Atlantic to a degree that they can't see themselves working for the likes of BA any time soon.

However if all of this comes to nothing then the crew will eventually have to sort out a P45 if their love for the job/Virgin Atlantic can't overwhelm the fact that their needs are not adequately catered for and that they don't like the terms of the contract.

VS075 said:- ''it's because a lot of the cabin crew love their job and, in particular, love Virgin Atlantic''.

Agreed, and that is why Virgin set a benchmark, and that is why despite everything I keep coming back to VS (as well as v-flyer . . . . helloooo). But more importantly, a simple fact emerging is that more and more airlines in other parts of the world are trying to be 'like Virgin Atlantic.' And their salaries might often be tax-free for many people.

I would name Virgin America/USA, Kingfisher/India, and maybe even Emirates/UAE. I also know that Kingfisher/India is about to go international in a very, very, big way, and has been hiring cockpit as well as cabin crew from all over the world, at world salaries. And I also know that there is an added value when cabin crew say that they are ex-Virgin Atlantic, that's a simple fact and solid truth in Bangalore.

Point I make here is this - striking is not really a valid option, and if the management is not responding, then berating them won't help. And frankly, the value of being 'ex-Virgin Atlantic' is only going to devalue if crew go on strike.

Just a quick thought from an Office based staff member: I keep hearing crew say that without them there'd be no airline, but the way I see it without office staff there'd be no company for the crew to work for. Its a bit of a chicken/egg situation. No office = no routes, no sales agents, no flight ops or crew planning, no marketing, no engineering, no one to manage the money to earn millions of £££ interest etc etc.

Many office staff do a hell of a lot more than our contracted 37.5 hours a week with no overtime, no travelling time, no time in lieu, and we're paid well below market rates. We don't have a union to negotiate pay rises and bonuses so we have to bust ourselves to help the company earn as much £££ as possible so that we can hope for the increase/bonus each year.

It comes down to the love of the job/company that makes up for the salary. The choice for every employee is simple - if you don't like the conditions, go somehwere else. Don't resort to a strike that will operationally and financially cripple the company for months, even years, and affect every single employee - the cost of a strike will likely lead to hundreds of people being made redundant - BOTH CREW AND OFFICE/GROUND STAFF. Our decisions affect your job just as much as your decisions affect ours. We work for the entire company, not just for office staff, and I'd like to think that the crew share that attitude.

Wow. RJD. [oo]

That's the best post on this thread for a long time. Potential strikers - take heed.

good point RJD as you say its like the whole chicken and egg situation!

I shall not be voting to strike, because I will be financially better off under the current offer what with outgoings etc. I do believe that there is no more money in the pot, however serious issues need to be addressed such as crew down etc, which I think the company will now address as I don't think they realised the whole pay deal would come this far.