Cabin Crew Pay Update *2nd NOV*

[RichardMannion]

Fabulous post RJD. I am still trying to get my head round this whole crew down payment to staff. What's the point of team work and just getting on with the job. I work for a very cash rich company, and we often have people out due to sickness or maternity leave, I don't get any extra money for having to pick up their work. I'm struggling to think of another industry/job that would pay a 'member of staff' down payment.

Being controversial, but you been a member of staff down on a flight with what another 15 people is hardly going to cause that much work in reality is it. It is often noted that crew are stood in the galleys for periods of time chatting, so you're hardly rushed off your feet for the entire duration of the flight are you. Try working in a team of 4, and one person goes out due to a car accident - no extra money for us, just extra work and we get on with it.

Richard, each crew member has designated duties, so say a flight is rostered with 18 crew and only goes with 14 crew is this acceptable to the pax and crew?? No it is certainly not!

If the company rosters a flight with 18 crew then they should ensure it goes with 18 crew. At the end of the day pax lose out

Originally posted by vscc
Richard, each crew member has designated duties, so say a flight is rostered with 18 crew and only goes with 14 crew is this acceptable to the pax and crew?? No it is certainly not!

If the company rosters a flight with 18 crew then they should ensure it goes with 18 crew. At the end of the day pax lose out

Surely the pax shouldn't lose out as the remaining crew take on the missing crews work and thus there is no problem???

As Richard rightly points out, it is no different to working in a small team in a job- in my job if someone doesnt turn up, I do not turn round to the client and say 'sorry so and so isnt in today so that hasnt been done', if I did that I firstly wouldnt get paid and secondly wouldnt be in a job for very long at all. Everyone pulls together and gets on with the job in order to satisfy the client and I dont get paid any extra to do it regardless of how many all nighters I do and weekends I work on.

[RichardMannion]

Originally posted by vscc
Richard, each crew member has designated duties, so say a flight is rostered with 18 crew and only goes with 14 crew is this acceptable to the pax and crew?? No it is certainly not!

If the company rosters a flight with 18 crew then they should ensure it goes with 18 crew. At the end of the day pax lose out

But you get paid extra! As a pax, even if you only have 14 people I am still going to get my meals and service, it might mean you get less time to chat in the galley. THe crew may indeed have designated duties, but they are not unique, they can be covered by another. You just have to step up to the mark. If all of you were working 100% flat out for the duration of the flight, then you'd have my sympathy and support but you're not. You are paid to do job and provide a service, and you should do it. Someone in retail may be employed as a cashier, but if they have some free time whilst on duty or aren't busy they would possibly be expected to assist with other duties. Standing there and saying 'that isn't my job' won't bode well at review time.

Nothing for pax when we get on board and there is no IFBT (and this has happened a lot recently), we get nothing for that.

Richard, have you ever been crew for Virgin Atlantic? if not then you have no place to comment because you have no idea of what happens when we go crew down. Services have to be adjusted and pax do lose out because services take longer to deliver.

As for this whole idea that we chat in the galley, the only time we chat is when we are having something to eat or during a night flight when we are not doing services. Any other times we are out in the aisles doing services, so please get your facts right!

Originally posted by milehigh

I have just got home from an 18 hour day at LHR by the way, including the 2.5 hour commute both ways...I do it because I chose to work with our customers and try to deliver a decent standard of service when all around us is coming to a grind...

We all know the salary when we take on the roles...by striking you will be putting all our jobs at risk..Please think long and hard before you vote yes to strike action. [V]

Without being involved in a crew V Groundstaff fight it should be noted you do get paid overtime! Which if you are traveling 2.5hrs each way to and from work that is about 100miles... To do that on ground staff shift patterns you are obviously being paid well.

For the record...I don't get overtime and I don't get shift pay..I work in a role that does not attract either but I choose to help my colleagues and serve our customer needs when I can help ....and I travel 150 miles...Call me a fool if you like! [:?]

[RichardMannion]

Originally posted by vscc
Richard, have you ever been crew for Virgin Atlantic? if not then you have no place to comment because you have no idea of what happens when we go crew down. Services have to be adjusted and pax do lose out because services take longer to deliver.

As for this whole idea that we chat in the galley, the only time we chat is when we are having something to eat or during a night flight when we are not doing services. Any other times we are out in the aisles doing services, so please get your facts right!

Of course, what would I know about flying Virgin Atlantic, and any other airline for that matter. Obviously with the job being such a highly-skilled role (give the full 6 weeks training course to get someone to be a member of crew) I have no right to comment. No I am not crew, but I am paying customer that is regular traveller in the premium cabins.

I must have been seeing things during my last 150+ flights with Virgin Atlantic with the regards to the crew behaviour. Maybe I was lucky when I was on the completely full flights, that the crew were obviously all utter professionals as they still had time to rest and chat.

I've never in my 8 years of VS flying had to raise issue with slow service due to 'crew down', more so to bone idle crew that couldn't give a toss or clearly had no concept of customer service.

I had some sympathy for the crew, but with people like you in the ranks I think I just remembered why I am unlikely to bother renewing my status this year given the awful slide in attitudes and service delivered by certain crew.

Originally posted by RJD
Just a quick thought from an Office based staff member: I keep hearing crew say that without them there'd be no airline.

I think if you have heard people saying this it is probably because the topic is about 'cabin crew pay negotiations' hence cabin crew are talking about their value. It is not cabin crew putting down their colleagues in other departments as you seem to have interpreted. There are many cogs to a business each as important without the other and all required to keep the corporate machine running smoothly.

Originally posted by RJD
Many office staff do a hell of a lot more than our contracted 37.5 hours a week with no overtime, no travelling time, no time in lieu, and we're paid well below market rates. We don't have a union to negotiate pay rises and bonuses so we have to bust ourselves to help the company earn as much £££ as possible so that we can hope for the increase/bonus each year.

This is why anyone employed has the right to be represented by a union, e.g. BA check in staff, engineers, baggage handlers - the list goes on - that way everyone gets a fair deal - you shouldn't have to bust yourselves. I think it is wrong that other departments only got 2% but that's a whole other story....

As for working crew down, well there are reels of posts on here about service deteriorating, services are modified when we are short of crew especially on shorter flights, the resultant is that the customer loses out (I promise you of that) and as has been mentioned with the new LHR configs more UC and Premium passengers are going to be wanting more service so just how that will work if Crew down is not addressed I do not know - It is after all what you are paying all that money for when you buy your ticket- the customer is the one being short changed by the company operating crew down.

Originally posted by RJD
Just a quick thought from an Office based staff member: I keep hearing crew say that without them there'd be no airline, but the way I see it without office staff there'd be no company for the crew to work for. Its a bit of a chicken/egg situation. No office = no routes, no sales agents, no flight ops or crew planning, no marketing, no engineering, no one to manage the money to earn millions of £££ interest etc etc.

Many office staff do a hell of a lot more than our contracted 37.5 hours a week with no overtime, no travelling time, no time in lieu, and we're paid well below market rates. We don't have a union to negotiate pay rises and bonuses so we have to bust ourselves to help the company earn as much £££ as possible so that we can hope for the increase/bonus each year.

It comes down to the love of the job/company that makes up for the salary. The choice for every employee is simple - if you don't like the conditions, go somehwere else. Don't resort to a strike that will operationally and financially cripple the company for months, even years, and affect every single employee - the cost of a strike will likely lead to hundreds of people being made redundant - BOTH CREW AND OFFICE/GROUND STAFF. Our decisions affect your job just as much as your decisions affect ours. We work for the entire company, not just for office staff, and I'd like to think that the crew share that attitude.

highly-skilled role... yeah we'll see how highly skilled it is when we're getting your ass out of a burning aircraft.

Oh I can see it know your one these pax that thinks they are god and expects to be waited on hand and foot, I think a little bit of travelling down the back with the genuine, down to earth folk would do you a bit of good!

Oh btw is it your company that pays for your 'Premium' ticket?

Originally posted by vscc
highly-skilled role... yeah we'll see how highly skilled it is when we're getting your ass out of a burning aircraft.

Oh I can see it know your one these pax that thinks they are god and expects to be waited on hand and foot, I think a little bit of travelling down the back with the genuine, down to earth folk would do you a bit of good!

Oh btw is it your company that pays for your 'Premium' ticket?

You REALLY need to read the rest of this topic before coming out with that crap, from the airline who made headlines last year with a Cabin crew member screaming 'We are going to die' on a flight.

You also need to read your fellow crew mambers comments on Cabin Crew to see how som,e of them feel about the genuibne down to earth folk and the premium passengers who pay YOUR wages!

If a passenger thinks they are God, as they pay your wages, then they probably are, because without them you ain't got no job whatsoever!

No wonder with your attitude that the reputation of Virgin Atlantic is going down the pan!

[RichardMannion]

Originally posted by vscc
highly-skilled role... yeah we'll see how highly skilled it is when we're getting your ass out of a burning aircraft.

Oh I can see it know your one these pax that thinks they are god and expects to be waited on hand and foot, I think a little bit of travelling down the back with the genuine, down to earth folk would do you a bit of good!

Oh btw is it your company that pays for your 'Premium' ticket?

Before jumping in like you did you might have wanted to think and have done some research.

My employer doesn't pay for premium tickets, I nowadays travel on one international flight for work and that is booked in Y. I pay for that to be upgraded to W or J out of my own pocket. Just like the other premium flights I do, they are paid for with miles or cash. There are a large group of people on this site that do pay for their own premium travel.

I actually pay attention to the safety briefings, and would be able to handle the situation in the vent of an emregnecy to the same degree that any member of trained crew would be able to. It's hardly rocket science. One can open a door, and has read up about SEP.

Don't assume.

[Decker]

VSCC - I'm sorry as you'll see elsewhere in the thread I defend your right to strike but you are really coming over as a ******** ******. (Deleted by myself as ad hominems are against forum rules).

If you can train for a job in six weeks it is NOT highly trained. 3 solid years PERHAPS but even then that's only a normal degree - it wouldn't make you a brain surgeon. Don't diminish the strengths of your argument by buying into your own foolish rhetoric.

When we fly premium/UC we pay for a premium service. So YES we expect a decent service level. Or are there new rules in place where in the event of a fire, crew will hold back other cabins to allow UC pax off first? I've done my share of down the back travel as has Richard and TBH I swore never to fly VS after several flights there. But when premium cabins are affordable I'll gladly use them.

FWIW I happen to know that all of Richard's premium travel is on his own dime - his employer doesn't fly him that often and when they do it's not UC. So every year he pays out of his own taxed income AT LEAST half the salary of a junior. Add in the spend of his good lady and between them they pay the salary of at least one junior. That sort of spend entitles any member of the SLF to their opinion as to how good crew service levels are.

Get over the idea that when you're in a premium cabin you're there to save lives in the event of an emergency. You're not - you're there to provide superior service.

Bugger. Just booked 3 PREMIUM tickets to Jamaica in February. I must be mad when I could have gone with BA for the same money. But I made my choice because I prefer Virgin. Don't make me regret that decision.

Miopyk[8D]

QUOTE - Get over the idea that when you're in a premium cabin you're there to save lives in the event of an emergency. You're not - you're there to provide superior service.

And that is where the problem lies. It's neither, It is actually both with safety being the paramount, otherwise may as well just have waiters and waitresses in the sky.

Who is going to save your life on board when you have a heart attack ? I suppose they could just stand and watch you and offer you a glass of red to thin your blood !! [:(!].

The crew save lives on a regular basis so the above comment is so very wrong. If however this is what the majority of passengers think then there is a clearly a safety issue which Virgin needs to highlight is not the case.

As for SEP's a walk in the park - Yeah you collapse and watch the nearest crew member know exactly where the nearest med kit is and oxygen & but it might be different if it's a 747 of a 300 or a 600... a bit of respect wouldnt go a miss for your 'person there to provide superios service'- that's all !

Respect breeds Respect.[:(]

[Decker]

Originally posted by Voice_of_reason
QUOTE - Get over the idea that when you're in a premium cabin you're there to save lives in the event of an emergency. You're not - you're there to provide superior service.

And that is where the problem lies. It's neither, It is actually both with safety being the paramount, otherwise may as well just have waiters and waitresses in the sky.

Who is going to save your life on board when you have a heart attack ? I suppose they could just stand and watch you and offer you a glass of red to thin your blood !! [:(!].

The crew save lives on a regular basis so the above comment is so very wrong. If however this is what the majority of passengers think then there is a clearly a safety issue which Virgin needs to highlight is not the case.

As for SEP's a walk in the park - Yeah you collapse and watch the nearest crew member know exactly where the nearest med kit is and oxygen & but it might be different if it's a 747 of a 300 or a 600... a bit of respect wouldnt go a miss for your 'person there to provide superios service'- that's all !

Respect breeds Respect.[:(]

and that is where you are SO blinkered it is untrue. I can pay £250 for a coach seat and get all of that. Unless you wish to tell me that the safety treatment I get in coach is inferior to that in W or J?

I pay the extra money for superior service and equipment - period. If you think differently you are seriously deluded.

Like most people who read I also know that flying in a premium cabin decreases my chance of surviving a crash.

Does not matter which cabin you may be in the crews primary role is safety, period. If there is an incident/casualty anywhere on the aircraft and resources need to be redirected from Premium or Upper class they will be. If that means drinks and meals are not forthcoming then that is the case thus highlighting what the crew are really there for.

I have seen people complain because their meal was taking too long when someone was suffering a suspected heart attack. People complain because their drink is taking too long because the crew are dealing with a possible miscarriage. I am not surprised at some of the things I hear from members of the public anymore - a lot of people seem to have a very high element of self importance that level often escalates the nearer the front they sit (pilots excluded). Of course the majority of passengers fully appreciate that the safety of someone in coach over a gin and tonic in upper takes precedence.

[Decker]

VS Marketing must be SO glad you don't work for them then. Their primary role in the event of anything that threatens the safety of pax or crew is the safety of said pax or crew. The rest of the time there primary role is that assigned to them by their job spec. I have yet to see an order of service start with 'At all times ensure safety of pax and crew'.

I would just like to add, although I am bitterly disappointed that my long awaited holiday may be disrupted or even ruined, I do appreciate all the crew members I have ever encountered. I have 'special needs' when flying due to various medical conditions and whether I've flown economy, premium or upper, I have always been treated exceptionally well with tact and diplomacy whilst handling my special needs.

This is what stands Virgin out from the other carriers and I really hope this is not ruined by any potential strike action or the in-fighting that may result.

Decker - I have yet to see an order of service start with 'At all times ensure safety of pax and crew'.

Tell me you are joking just to try and wind the crew up there is no way you are that naive ? If this is honestly what you think then a through re-education programme is required for some of our passengers.

I suggest writing to customer services and asking them what the crews number one priority is if you dont believe me.

[V]

I just don't get this. What is wrong with VS's staff fighting for better pay and conditions? When you're earning £15k it is worth battling for each and every benefit - when you're on £100k you take a package, I think we we forget this and that there's a difference. I damn well support crews' negotiations for improvement, not at any cost and not out of their market norms and within their business' capacity to reward, AND more importantly to maintain the level of service under their control to deliver (and that doesn't mean everything that the penny pinchers control!). And yes, if that means going to strike I'd go so far. But ...

... my voice of reason. It seems that the negotiations and threats of strike have created some improvement in the offer to crew. I am concerned hwoever at the downsides: the proposed reduction in crewing on board is one, anyone running any team knows that that means corners will be cut, the lingering bad feeling is another however my recent experiences (New York this week, and back next week so I'll be alert) have been excellent as have the crews who have served me (as in provided a service not a safety act!).

So I hope that the next steps are for agreement and that both crew and passengers here continue to fly happily.

[Decker]

Jeez

My PRIMARY role is to safeguard shareholder value and ensure the company is not sued for malpractice. If I am so stupid as to assume that I can therefore not actually BOTHER doing what my customers think they pay me for I wouldn't last long in the role...

There are some things that are a GIVEN in any employment situation. The fact that crew are there for our safety is one such thing. So let's concentrate on what we pay the premium for. What do YOU think I pay 5-10x more than an economy fare for?

[Pete]

I would agree with VoR that safety is the number one priority for any crew member. However, I also understand that what Decker is trying to say is the large delta in price that a premium (meaning PE or Upper) passenger pays over economy is not to be 'safer' but to get 'premium' service.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to once again call for calm and reasoned discussion. There's far too much heat in the arguments of late, and whilst there's much more to be discussed, I won't hesitate but to put temporary locks on accounts if this can't be done in a civilised manner.

Originally posted by Decker

There are some things that are a GIVEN in any employment situation. The fact that crew are there for our safety is one such thing. So let's concentrate on what we pay the premium for. What do YOU think I pay 5-10x more than an economy fare for?

Red cushions [:X]

I guess the damage has been done, but what's the best way forward???

I'm not directly involved, but have seen first hand all communication to the crew from both VS & the union, it's an absolute shambles. SRB should be asking senior managers for answers as to why it has escalated to such a degree. Mud slinging between VS departments isn't going to help either.