Cabin Crew Pay Update *2nd NOV*

[Bazz]

Thank you for that John, now I wonder what flight you could possibly be on [:w]

[Decker]

OK I stand corrected. Crewing is a highly skilled job - in that to do it well you need highly developed people skills and that is something that only a minority of people have. So I apologise to crew for stating that it is not a highly skilled job - Mrs D put me right [;)].

Originally posted by flybird
Pete I didn't say I supported the way the union have handled this. I believe both the union and the company have magnificently under estimated the mood of the crew.

I don't know about that flybird.
Looking at the figures, only 41% of the unionised cabin crew voted no, the rest either voted yes or didn't bother to vote.
That's not even a majority of the union who feel strongly enough to vote no, add to that the 30% not in the union and you are well down on persons prepared to go the next level I would surmise.
I estimate then that your core is aroun 1,200 members and some of them won't want to strike, due to bills, mortgage payments etc..

I do feel that the crew are in a no win corner now sadly.

The better route would have been accept the 4.8% as VS management would have known that the crew would not accept any old pay deal, then gradually fight it out over the coming years. Now, your last card has been dealt and if you don't strike, then VS know how far to push, if you do strike, there is going to be bad feeling and animosity between crews for years to come and with such a small volume of dedicated strikers, you are going to have to settle anyway at a less than truly acceptable figure after weeks of no pay whatsoever, growing bills which will eat up any raise you get and the possibility of losing your mortgages.

Virgin management are also in a no win situation, they now have to play hard ball, they are also in a corner, where if they put on the table a better deal, then next time around they will have no bargaining power, but against that is the costs of keeping the premium passengers sweet to stop them voting with their feet, the publicity and anciliiary costs of cancelling flights, but this will be the cheaper option to them than now being seen to capitulate.

However this ends, it's bad for Virgin, both the company and its crew.

Denzil - what is with those hundreds of plasma screens hanging from the ceiling a the crew training centre? I can't believe that when they claim they have no money they spent so much money buying, installing and running (power costs) plasma screens telling me how gorgeous I am. I find them extremely condescending because I know I am not gorgeous and it just smacks of hypocrisy to have all that energy being burnt when Branson goes on TV spouting about how conscious Virgin are about green issues. Branson also no longer flys on Virgin, he has his private jet to carry him around, yes very environmentally friendly Richard. Maybe he's afraid the crew might contaminate his food.

Here here, Alan.

I believe that the last offer came with the very strong message from management that it was the absolute final offer and nothing more would be added - I guess they are now gearing up to try and minimise the effects of a strike that seems inevitable. So the crew were well aware what a No vote would mean at that point and now must face up to the effects it will have on both their job security and on the company - with ticket prices being so similar across airlines these days, there's little loyalty left and many pax who have their holidays cancelled because of a strike that has nothing to do with them won't ever be back. Its hard enough in this game with the number of airlines out there, so this could have a devastating affect on every single person in the company, as well as the pax who now choose to fly BA or AA (poor buggers!).

Whilst I am very appreciative of the training that the crew undertake and their responsibilities onboard re safety and emergencies, here's a different take on the 'skilled' debate: would crew from say Australia or NZ qualify for the highky skilled migrant visa to work in the UK? Given that nearly half of the points required under the system relate to a university degree, the answer is no. I'm not trying to take anything away from the crew or be controversial, just trying to put everything in context. We've all got different skills in our lines of work, we just need to be realistic on what skills demand the power to potentaily bring down a company.

The company did say it was their final offer but because they had already said the previous 3 offers were final it has left little credibility for the managers.

Originally posted by flybird

I'm off soon to go back to Air New Zealand this time based in London. OK they only have 2 destination but at least I will be able to pay the rent!

That, sadly is one thing I fear most about VS's crew treatment, the good will leave and those that remain will be less experienced / less motivated. In the early days of the negotiations, I talked at length to a crew member while sat on the tarmac at JFK, this person had joined from BA because she wanted see what this Virgin brand was all about, she was experienced with many years' service and I have to say was among the best CC I had experienced in that efficient / friendly way. Sadly she was considering going back to BA to earn a better living even though she would have to go back to short haul initially.

After all, if you pay peanuts, your get ... (and more of them will line up) so that's why I think it's in my interest to support better pay and conditions.

So true slinky09 so many crew just come to Virgin to experience travelling for a couple of years then leave to go to BA or another airline. The inexperience at Virgin is quite scarey and I do worry about what some of the crew would be like in an emergency when they don't even know what is supposed to go on the bar carts. I did a 7hr flight the other week and the first service took 4hrs to complete, total nightmare, no direction from onboard managers (again fairly new to the role) and the rest of the crew in Y and W where all still on their probation. I was running around like an headless chook (Kiwi for Chicken!) sorting out problems with IFE/laptop power leads (the bain of my flying life) and special meal problems and when I returned to the galley nothing had been set up for the service.

When I do work with experienced crew the trips can be fantastic and its experienced crew Virgin need to look after. Thats why they really need to introduce a yearly incremental pay increase to hold onto people. At the moment I'm still earning the same as when I started several years ago. I'm off to Air New Zealand and many, many crew have their names on the 'email alert' option at BritishAirwaysjobs.com

Any word on what the proposed date for this strike is?

Lots of rumours flying around (no pun intended) that it's going to be a 3 day strike.

Originally posted by firsttimer
Any word on what the proposed date for this strike is?

Lots of rumours flying around (no pun intended) that it's going to be a 3 day strike.

Christmas eve, day, and Boxing day maybe? (total guess!)

Must admit Gavin, that thought crossed my mind as well.

Same union is representing BAA staff who are being balloted on srike action over the Christmas period.

[Nottingham Nick]

I stand to be corrected here but, surely, if the next stage in the dispute is for Unite to ballot members about strike action, then any dates that are speculated about would be just that - speculation.

I wouldn't have thought that the union can fix dates for a strike, until they have a mandate from the membership authorising industrial action.

Nick

[preiffer]

So, here's the thing - what if the vote for strike action comes back as a NO?

CC have said 'no' to the deal on the table. They then say (maybe) 'no' to striking - so what happens then? [:?]

[Pete]

Originally posted by preiffer
So, here's the thing - what if the vote for strike action comes back as a NO?

CC have said 'no' to the deal on the table. They then say (maybe) 'no' to striking - so what happens then? [:?]

Officially, VS could pull the deal, as they're not obliged to keep it on the table after the ballot and if the ballot comes back as a No, the crew don't have a bargaining chip left. However, it would be a sensible goodwill move for VS to sustain the current offer even if it were a No to striking.

The best option would appear to find someway for that 4.8% to be accepted without even going to a vote - so both sides could save face; but I don't suppose it will happen.

Interesting thread on PPRuNe about the dispute. If bookings were to go down by 10% due to the threat of a strike, that could be circa £720K lost business a day. Virgin's reported (record) profit of £41.6m would be wiped out in less that two months - so by New Year, when people are talking of this strike kicking in. That would mean an awful lot of redundancies required just to stay afloat. Not a good situation.

Interesting thread on PPRuNe about the dispute. If bookings were to go down by 10% due to the threat of a strike, that could be circa £720K lost business a day.

There has been some talk on her of alternatives to strike action, and the probability of CC voting in favour of this. I'm just wondering if we aren't giving the Union enough credit here. In going to the press the way they have putting this in the public domain, have they already started an action that will reduce ticket sales? If this is the case could it force VS back to the table with a slightly better offer that could be accepted by all without losing face and going to the strike that everyone thinks will produce no winners?

For me it's an interesting one!

Doubt if the Union is in control here - They advised acceptance did they not. I would guess they know very well they are on a very sticky wicket.
Their problem is with a (workforce) minority of militant members.

Union & Virgin both need a way out.

[Bazz]

Originally posted by Gavin

Originally posted by firsttimer
Any word on what the proposed date for this strike is?

Lots of rumours flying around (no pun intended) that it's going to be a 3 day strike.

Christmas eve, day, and Boxing day maybe? (total guess!)

I guess those days would be favourite for the CC, Christmas at home with the family and probably not too disruptive for pax? I imagine not too many people would choose to fly on those days, so the loads will be lighter? I must have a look on ExpertFlyer when I have time to see what it looks like.

Personally, I am US bound on the 20 Dec and inbound on 05 Jan so could get caught up in it, if it goes to a strike.

I, like most who have posted, hope an acceptable position can be achieved without strike action being taken, which will only serve to do long term harm to airline and staff, all staff.

I do accept it is a workers right to withdraw their labour and would defend that right but historically in the last 30 years or so exercising that right has been hugely costly for all concerned.

[mitchja]

Originally posted by Gavin

Originally posted by firsttimer
Any word on what the proposed date for this strike is?

Lots of rumours flying around (no pun intended) that it's going to be a 3 day strike.

Christmas eve, day, and Boxing day maybe? (total guess!)

If the last few Christmas' & New Years are anything to go by, a lot of the CC will be off sick anyway.

Regards

Originally posted by flybird
So true slinky09 so many crew just come to Virgin to experience travelling for a couple of years then leave to go to BA or another airline. The inexperience at Virgin is quite scarey and I do worry about what some of the crew would be like in an emergency when they don't even know what is supposed to go on the bar carts. I did a 7hr flight the other week and the first service took 4hrs to complete, total nightmare, no direction from onboard managers (again fairly new to the role) and the rest of the crew in Y and W where all still on their probation. I was running around like an headless chook (Kiwi for Chicken!) sorting out problems with IFE/laptop power leads (the bain of my flying life) and special meal problems and when I returned to the galley nothing had been set up for the service.

When I do work with experienced crew the trips can be fantastic and its experienced crew Virgin need to look after. Thats why they really need to introduce a yearly incremental pay increase to hold onto people. At the moment I'm still earning the same as when I started several years ago. I'm off to Air New Zealand and many, many crew have their names on the 'email alert' option at BritishAirwaysjobs.com

Sadly, I think the situation you mention (not keeping experienced staff) isn't limited to VS. Goes on everywhere, seems the bottom line is not how good a staff you have, but how cheaply can you get them....

Can I just ask what IS the offer that's been rejected? 33 pages to trawl through otherwise....

Ok, just found it. So 4.8% for a 1st year person then... Understand there may be a whole raft of whys and wherefores going on, but personally, I'd be more than happy with that kind of %age. Try working for local government this year, when 2.475% was seen as generous...........

[mitchja]

I too would be more than happy with a 4.8% raise (as, I think, would most people in the UK under the current climate)

Only got 3% this year here.

Regards

Originally posted by mitchja
I too would be more than happy with a 4.8% raise (as, I think, would most people in the UK under the current climate)

Only got 3% this year here.

By 'eck, you northerners who still produce 'stuff' have it cushy. It's a big fat zero for those of us in IT consulting in the soft underbelly of the south.

Originally posted by Bazz

Originally posted by Gavin

Christmas eve, day, and Boxing day maybe? (total guess!)

I guess those days would be favourite for the CC, Christmas at home with the family and probably not too disruptive for pax? I imagine not too many people would choose to fly on those days, so the loads will be lighter?

Personally this V-Flyer would be royally shafted by these dates as we're due to fly to Antigua on Boxing Day, and can't shift the days forward (no accommodation) or back (the other half *has* to be in work bleary eyed 2.5 hours after landing back at Gatwick.

Certainly the Premium and UCS loads seem high for our particular flight. We booked the holiday back in Feb / March, and no PE upgrades were available even back then..

Paul

I think perhaps the CC are more concerned that 4.8% of very little = very little!!!

Originally posted by Denzil
I think perhaps the CC are more concerned that 4.8% of very little = very little!!!

4.8% of 'very little' is better than 0% of 'very little'!