Skytrax reports getting worse.

Now I know that these sites normally have more brickbats than plaudits for all airlines, but the Skytrax reviews for VS are getting worse
http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/vir_atl.htm

When you read the complaints and filter out the ones not of VS making (T3 at Heathrow, baggage claim etc..) the complaints that have even appeard here are on there with sad regualarity.

Does anyone think that VS are actually caring anymore about the reputation that they are getting out there in passengers eyes?

Do they think that the press on bio fuels, new UC security at T3 will cover the crap food, crap attitude and for LGW passengers crap IFE?

I know this has beeen covered many times on here, but does anyone think its getting better? or do we just shrug our shoulders and either fly with other carriers or put up with it?

Isn't it time that Pete and LROM had another talk with VS PR about passengers concerns, or am I the only one concerned and making too big a thing over it?

[Pete]

I don't think it's worth putting much merit on the Skytrax reviews, as has been discussed many times before, anecdotal evidence suggests they ignore the positive reviews sent in regarding Virgin.

The only ratings I can trust personally are the ones we collect here as part of trip reports, the summary results of which are here. The benefit of those ratings is they record all scores - good and bad - and because they are linked to a trip report, it makes the writer think about the aspects of their journey, and I'm more inclined to think every rating has a better chance of being justified rather than the multi-choice bingo of surveys.

The three month rolling average of ratings on V-Flyer compared with the complete history would suggest that things are marginally up in performance overall.

If the charts showed a steady decline in passenger opinions, that would certainly be of concern, but I don't think I'd ever start lighting torches and marching off to Crawley because of something written on Skytrax.

Pete,
certainly the reports on here are a very good pointer to certain classes of cabin and certain posters, most of whom are either Gold or Silver card holders and frequent users of VS.
But since the changes to the site, unless you are a paid member of the site you cannot post a trip report so this can also colour the responses you have.

This is looked at by other forums, notibly other travel related forums, as the foremost independant authority on Virgin Atlantic, but the reports on other forums do not match the findings of the majority of trip reports on here it looks like.

I do understand where you are coming from regarding Skytrax, but that is not the only site where reports on Virgins flights has been less than stellar

[Pete]

Point taken regarding trip reports, although that said, just because you are a member of V-Flyer, I'm not sure that that itself should colour your judgement of a flight. Frequent passengers, and those who know what the service levels *should* be, would be more likely to spot when service delivery goes wrong, surely, and be less likely to be influenced by unrealistic expectation.

Pete,
Yes I do see what you mean, but VS have certainly on the Economy seat side of their operation sold the airline on its service and uniqueness and the economy passengers seem to be the most dissapointed.

Also, I think those who have flown many times with VS now have come to expect the service to be less each time.

[Pete]

I agree that it's easy for a new passenger to fall into the trap that flying Virgin must be a rock-star event, but to be fair, Virgin aren't the ones making those promises - it's just a false expectation. I'm sure there are a percentage of passengers in economy on every flight that are disappointed that they didn't get a limo, a free haircut and no massage on their flight - but my sympathy levels are kind of low given they probably paid more in taxes to the government than Virgin are actually collecting in revenue from their seat.

As for frequent passengers expecting the service to be less, I'd have to disagree. I get ticked off when I don't see service delivery I know should be there; but I admire your ability to accept the failures.

Pete
I think you are missing the point.
These new economy passengers are not expecting massages, limos etc, but are expecting a better service in terms of food, seat pitch, IFE, on time performance, Call centre responses and crew attitude than a charter airline, and sadly time and time again this is not the case.
Of course Virgin have pushed being the hip airline, better than Charter this is where their marketing has pushed them in economy.
As for the prices paid by Economy passengers, they pay more than charters for a bit of better service and this is what they do not get.

How many times has a trip report from the posh end of the plane (which, lets be fiar makes up the majority of the TR's on here) had some comment that the service is not consistant? thats not accepting it, as many do not, but if you cannot get consistancy in the small cabin, what chance is there in the cattle class cabin?

Do you not think there is a dange of V-Flyer becoming a little blaise to the vast majority who fly economy and their concerns?

I say this as someone who would not set foot in VS current economy package, that is how I 'accept their failures'.

A clued-up corporate entity can and does treat a resource like Skytrax very seriously, because they will be able to take a nuanced view of the complaints there. They will be able to filter out the hysteria, the unreasonable expectations and the ground axes, and use the resulting sample usefully. The same is true with resources like TripAdvisor, where one filters out the Yanks who complain about small bathrooms, and the people who have contingent, one-off problems, and realise the general 'vibe' of the place quite accurately. On Skytrax, there are plenty of repetitive and perfectly reasonable complaints there which are mirrored here, to which VS could have and should have responded.

I remain convinced that the upper VS management do not actually have much of an idea of what goes on 'on the ground' beyond the pounds and pence. I am sure it'd just take one of the Directors to experience 'priority' boarding at LHR, or to be on an aircraft where the crisps have 'run out' in UC to fix it in a jiffy.

[Pete]

I only base my opinion on the facts, and the ratings in all cabin - from Economy to Upper - don't support your assertion that Virgin Atlantic's product is on such a steep downward slide. If your position is that V-Flyer is unrepresentative of Virgin passengers, then I would like to find any better sample or measure available on the Internet.

You're making some big sweeping generalisations of economy passengers there and at the same time admitting that you never travel that class. I don't accept that V-Flyer is blasŽ about economy passengers, even if the majority of trip reports are about premium cabins. My own personal theory is that V-Flyer makes you realise that those premium cabins may not be as far out of reach as you may have thought; and actually the flight is as much a part of your holiday as a decent hotel.

[preiffer]

...and to put the issue into a slightly different context, last week I experienced a relatively poor Y service offering, followed by an amazing Y service on the way home.


And that was with SQ! So, if THEY can't even get it 100% 'consistent'... [:w]

The problem with this is that most sites have some sort of bias in them. Most people will post something negative as we feel more strongly about it.
However, there is probably a bias on V-Flyer as there is a certain amount of 'brand loyalty'. We are more forgiving of someone / something we know and 'love'. (Just a small example - as a Spurs supporter, they can lose 5-3 and I will extoll the virtues of the great entertainment supplied. An Arsenal supporter will just remark on what a lousy defense we have !)

[mitchja]

On the other hand most V-Flyers know exactly what they are (or at least should) be getting hence the reson why, I for one, do tend to moan a bit when I dont get the things I know I should get.

For example, most V-Flyers know what IFE they are going to get and hence comment about A/C that dont have V:Port.

Many other pax probably arn't that aware of what they should be getting and just take the service they get at face-value.

Regards

Pete
I do not think I said it was on a steep downward slide?
However the product needs to improve but shows no sign of doing so, with LGW aircraft now so far behind the LHR aircraft it's not good for Virgin's reputation and does give the impression of a two class service fleet.
It is no good extending the routes if you cannot provide a comparable service on the routes you currently have. This is where many businesses have failed, expanding before getting the basic product right.

I have made my comments (I would not say they were sweeping generalisations either) based upon reports from Economy passengers on many other travel forums who have used the service.

The difficulty here is - we as v-flyer users know that LGW aircraft offer a lower standard of aircraft and so when we book tickets, we do so in the full knowledge that in Y we will experience old, tatty and often barely working IFE. We have the choice to use other carriers if we want. The problem VS have is that unless people use forums like this one, they will book without that knowledge (often based on someone elses recomedation). So - whilst Pete is right that Virgin arent the ones making these promises, they are only really still in business because of the 'Word Of Mouth' advertising on which they clearly rely so heavily (as, problaby are all airlines) - and with the huge discrepancy between LGW and LHR, how is a normal member of the public meant to know if the only reports they have heard are about LHR planes? If you fly BA, you get the same no matter where you fly from. Why cant VS keep up?

[mitchja]

Originally posted by musicmanbrain
If you fly BA, you get the same no matter where you fly from. Why cant VS keep up?

BA do exactly the same though. Your wont get the same IFE or business class seat on every BA A/C. BA's LGW/MAN routes where the last to get the now old CW and I dont think any of BA's LGW fleet have the new CW yet do they [:?]

Edit to add after looking it up - All BA's 744's now have the new CW so that means about half the fleet have the new CW and AVOD IFE system whilst the other half still dont. The B767's are not even getting the new IFE/CW seats.

There are also numerous airlines out there that still only offer a single big screen projection IFE system per cabin. Regardless of IFE type on VS A/C, you at least get a choice in what you watch having your own seat-back IFE screen.

Regards

Absolutly true!

Regardless of IFE type on VS A/C, you at least get a choice in what you watch having your own seat-back IFE screen.

.

Unless the person in front has reclined, then you get to watch their bald spot*.


* other hair styles may apply

[mitchja]

Originally posted by locutus

Regardless of IFE type on VS A/C, you at least get a choice in what you watch having your own seat-back IFE screen.

.

Unless the person in front has reclined, then you get to watch their bald spot*.


* other hair styles may apply

Well when I've raised this in the past with VS customer relations (the worst seats for this where those plastic horror PE seats that used to be on the LHR fleet), appartently they had not had any other negative comments about the IFE screens not been viewable properly when the seat is reclined [:?]

This raises another important point though - unless VS get feedback from their pax about such things they are unlikey to change anything.

Regards

Originally posted by mitchja
BA do exactly the same though. Your wont get the same IFE or business class seat on every BA A/C. BA's LGW/MAN routes where the last to get the now old CW and I dont think any of BA's LGW fleet have the new CW yet do they [:?]

Edit to add after looking it up - All BA's 744's now have the new CW so that means about half the fleet have the new CW and AVOD IFE system whilst the other half still dont. The B767's are not even getting the new IFE/CW seats.

Regards

What you say about BA is true and they do currently offer a 'two class' service with different IFE systems and CW seats, but this is only because they're still fitting the new products. Having announced the new CW and IFE in Nov. 2006 they seem to have set a good pace in getting the new features into their aircraft with the first 777 to be completed shortly. Although BA 767s won't get the new CW seat they have been fitted with AVOD.

Am I right in saying VS introduced V:Port with the A340-600 in 2002? If so it's been six years and 15/16 of the aircraft still have old IFE/seats. I can see where AlanA is coming from, I've never flown UC or PE and so features such as AVOD are very important on a long flight as I find it impossible to sleep. I would say if you're in the 14 seat UC section of an LGW 747 then the level of service from the crew is going to be higher than normal because of the small cabin (I'm guessing...) also I'm sure having a 6'+ bed more than makes up for the lack of an AVOD IFE system [:p]. My family avoid VS out of LGW because of the difference in quality of the product. The number of times I've had to defend VS after hearing people say they weren't impressed with the LGW Y product, and yes the problem comes from people having an 'expectation' of VS offering something of a higher standard. A member of crew I know says the LGW/MAN flights are known as 'The Bucket and Spade Parade'.

On the other hand, I've never had a bad experience of VS crew/food and find the FAs to be professional yet good fun [:)]

[preiffer]

Actually a bl**dy good point there Joffy.

Something Pete and I learned last week : The 'lower' down the cabins you go, the MORE distractions you need to keep your sanity. If anything, the new features should be put there as a priortiy. Let the J passengers worry about which champagne they preferred over last month's offering [ii] - Y passengers need things to keep their minds OFF of the 12 hours of sheer boredom ahead of them. [:0]

[mitchja]

Welcome to V-Flyer Joffy [y]

Actually the first VS A/C to get V:Port was G-VWOW back in 2001.

I can see what preiffer is saying about the IFE in Y as there's not much else other than your seat and your IFE screen for 10 hours.

I've actually had better Y flights out of MAN/LGW than out of LHR. More to do with the actual seat than the service or IFE offered. The older seats are so much better for a start. Try sitting on an A346 V:Port Y bench seat for a 23 hour flight to SYD and back [:0]

I dont and would never consider not having an AVOD IFE as a reduction in service though. As I mentioned earlier at least VS have in-seat IFE screens as serveral airlines still dont.

Regards

Preiffer I was looking through the photos and saw you were in Y on the A380. I'm still waiting for my first flight in W or J, then again I am only 18 [:I]

Well I'm glad you got to experience life without the luxuries of a bar and in-flight beauty therapist, just try going to Australia [:p] as Mitchja said!

Thanks for the welcome Mitchja. I take your point about not seeing a lack of AVOD as a reduction in service and I understand completely, I just see it as quite an important aspect of the flight. Like I said, I've always thought the FAs to be professional and the food pretty good, although some of their breakfast service could do with some serious improvement! A muffin and orange juice [:?]

Welcome, Joffy!

GJ

Originally posted by mitchja
I can see what preiffer is saying about the IFE in Y as there's not much else other than your seat and your IFE screen for 10 hours.

True enough, though they could take the bull by the horns and, oooh, buy a book ? Or am I being too radical ? [:w] Even with AVOD, I still like to take a break from staring at a screen.

Originally posted by mitchja
I dont and would never consider not having an AVOD IFE as a reduction in service though. As I mentioned earlier at least VS have in-seat IFE screens as serveral airlines still dont.

That brings back painful memories of flying to LA on Air France...

Paul

[Neil]

Just going back to the OP. The problem with any review is that everybody has different expectation levels and requirements, and opinions are very subjective and based on many many factors that are quite often not said. For some, IFE is important, for others more leg room, others would prefer better service etc.

The only real way to review how VS are doing is how the pax numbers stack up. Whilst again this isn't perfect as there are many reasons why people choose to fly a specific airline, it gives a bloody good idea and if VS are selling out the Y & W cabins ex LGW then things can't be too bad.

Of course VS aren't perfect, but as Paul has said neither are their competitors (and supposed market leaders) and it would be practically impossible to please everybody all of the time but the majority of us, and many others keep flying them for a reason.