If Virgin were to remove seats from the current Economy cabin in order to give everyone more space (similar to the AA model), would you be willing to pay extra for your ticket?
i thought you already could do this
its called pe
quote:Originally posted by candyman
i thought you already could do this
its called pe
PE is more then just extra legroom. PE includes a seperate checkin, priority boarding and disembarkment, priority over Y luggage coming out, biggger seats - not just more legroom.
I cannot always afford to fly PE but I think that there would be great demand for extra legroom - just that, non of the extra stuff.
Foz
)
AA never actually removed seats (at least not from their 777s). Instead, they removed two toilets from the back, leaving 4 for Y (compared with 8 on a 747) and thus there are always loads of complaints about queues on AA. I would be all against VS doing that.
Then again, economy is not the cabin that generates their income - the ticket prices are low initially and heavy competition drives them lower (UC starts proportionally higher - you don't get 10x the space/the monetary difference spent on you (although some may argue it feels like it)).
Thus, losing a few economy seats would not be quite so ridiculous in terms of revenue lost from economy.
But the crunch is that it would devalue PE - 9" difference is over twice as much as 4" - and a lot of people will be put of paying twice the price, or more for PE.
Then again, economy is not the cabin that generates their income - the ticket prices are low initially and heavy competition drives them lower (UC starts proportionally higher - you don't get 10x the space/the monetary difference spent on you (although some may argue it feels like it)).
Thus, losing a few economy seats would not be quite so ridiculous in terms of revenue lost from economy.
But the crunch is that it would devalue PE - 9" difference is over twice as much as 4" - and a lot of people will be put of paying twice the price, or more for PE.
That is a good point InsertName, in that case then if this is something VS looked at ... and please tell me they are ... then perhaps VS need to also look at how value can be added to PE. Compared to BA's it is a superior product, but i'm not sure how it compares price wise as I have never looked into it.
Personally I would love to see an extra 2 or 3" in Y. I can cope with it to NY, but much futher then that not a pleasent experience. Particularly now they offer Sydney, we are currently looking at going to next year and can't afford PE so have ruled out VS all together because we both refuse to fly that far in their Y.
Foz)
Personally I would love to see an extra 2 or 3" in Y. I can cope with it to NY, but much futher then that not a pleasent experience. Particularly now they offer Sydney, we are currently looking at going to next year and can't afford PE so have ruled out VS all together because we both refuse to fly that far in their Y.
Foz
)The problem with adding more value to PE is that at some stage it threatens to encroach upon UC.
If they allow clubhouse access, then the exclusivety of being in UC is lost - besides there is not enough capacity for PE in the clubhouses.
They could make 'inferior' lounges, but that would be expensive and a lot of places do not have the room.
The most obvious thing is to offer things similar to the old BA Club World, like an even larger seat pitch (but NOT flat) and raid the larger, or something similar.
If they allow clubhouse access, then the exclusivety of being in UC is lost - besides there is not enough capacity for PE in the clubhouses.
They could make 'inferior' lounges, but that would be expensive and a lot of places do not have the room.
The most obvious thing is to offer things similar to the old BA Club World, like an even larger seat pitch (but NOT flat) and raid the larger, or something similar.
The economic reality is, of course, that whilst they are filling up the seats at the back there is no reason to spend any money on it, or give away any of the revenue in terms of seat pitch. It would take either Virgin or BA to feel the pinch in terms of Economy passenger numbers before they had to address the issue; and at the moment, passenger numbers don't appear to be a problem. The focus on Upper Class is all about revenue. Upper Class used to always have capacity (even if it some of that was soaked up on take off with op upgrades). Since the introduction of the Suites, (even though there's only 2 less seats in the new config), the attractiveness of the product has lead to busier J cabins (and less freebie upgrades!). One bum in an Upper Class seat is worth about 10 bums down the back.
Now, if we're taking about a little sprinkle of Virgin-brand innovation, I'd like to see a 38" pitch Economy and a 50" Premium Economy (more like the traditional Business class). There's an argument that it would effect Upper Class sales, but I'd like to think Virgin can manage the positioning of the products with a certain flare. An Enhanced Economy seat for the price of an Economy; A Business Class seat for the price of an Enhanced Economy; and a First Class Bed for the price of Business. It would be great PR fodder, and no doubt the customers would love it, but I'd have to fall back on the economic realities and think this in an unlikely scenario.
Pete
Now, if we're taking about a little sprinkle of Virgin-brand innovation, I'd like to see a 38" pitch Economy and a 50" Premium Economy (more like the traditional Business class). There's an argument that it would effect Upper Class sales, but I'd like to think Virgin can manage the positioning of the products with a certain flare. An Enhanced Economy seat for the price of an Economy; A Business Class seat for the price of an Enhanced Economy; and a First Class Bed for the price of Business. It would be great PR fodder, and no doubt the customers would love it, but I'd have to fall back on the economic realities and think this in an unlikely scenario.
Pete
AA are removing the 'more space in coach' and returning to the standard 31 inch #305;n Y. As somone said, they did not see a benefit in revenue. My wife and I did it to New Orleans with them a couple of years ago, and it was the best Y transatlint#305;c flight I have ever done - just for the space.
If VS did 'expand' Y then I think they may lose out on some PE customers, who mainly want the extra space. I am one - I need to go to SFO in a couple of weeks, my company will only pay Y so I am paying the difference for PE. But on VS it is almost 1000 pounds extra - BA is only 350, so guess who I w#305;ll fly with.
It is all supply and demand, and I am sure that VS have got a good department that manages it effectively. For the flight above, BA have 2 747-400's a day to SFO, BUT VS only have 1 so guess which fills up fastest, and has less availability (== cheap pr#305;ces) nearer the fl#305;ght t#305;me?
Peter.
If VS did 'expand' Y then I think they may lose out on some PE customers, who mainly want the extra space. I am one - I need to go to SFO in a couple of weeks, my company will only pay Y so I am paying the difference for PE. But on VS it is almost 1000 pounds extra - BA is only 350, so guess who I w#305;ll fly with.
It is all supply and demand, and I am sure that VS have got a good department that manages it effectively. For the flight above, BA have 2 747-400's a day to SFO, BUT VS only have 1 so guess which fills up fastest, and has less availability (== cheap pr#305;ces) nearer the fl#305;ght t#305;me?
Peter.
Sorry about my reply - I am in Turkey and some of the keyboard characters come out wierd #305;n Engl#305;sh....
I think they need to sort out the PE product with it's massive inconsistencies (esp accross the fleet) and often poor value, before looking at Y. At present on many routes, especially with A343s, PE is an Economy product (albeit with a little more room) at a Premium price. If Y legroom went to say 34" who would pay up to 6 times as much for PE? Other airlines are going down the PE route, and it won't be long before the innovator, VS, is left behind. BA, Eva air, SAS, BMI, SQ (on A345 and coming on A380?), TG (on A345 soon), Air NZ, and probably others, including charters, catching up fast.
Isnt Economy with extra space PE!!:D?
On certain routes VS charge for exit rows anyway..
If we're talking less seats more room the AA experience proves that yeilds are lower (which is ultimately what Economy is about)
Personally I prefer to pay for a discounted W seat as this can often be less than a full fat Y but then again im only 5'4 so legroom isnt so important! even in Y
On certain routes VS charge for exit rows anyway..
If we're talking less seats more room the AA experience proves that yeilds are lower (which is ultimately what Economy is about)
Personally I prefer to pay for a discounted W seat as this can often be less than a full fat Y but then again im only 5'4 so legroom isnt so important! even in Y
It depends on how much more really. As a *Gold I love flying United as the extra room in E+ is great when you're 6'2" like me. However United are not even in the same league as VS, so I really only fly them when the VS Y fare is a lot higher than the other carriers. I tend to fly VS 90% of the time, but if the fare is £75 more than the others I will switch carrier.
I'd like to an extra inch or so across all of economy and the PE fares re-worked. In my eyes, PE is only worth another £100 or so.
I'd like to an extra inch or so across all of economy and the PE fares re-worked. In my eyes, PE is only worth another £100 or so.
I would not be willing to pay more in economy but would like to see some upgrade on PE - particularly from Man-ORL it is a pleasure trip to our second home, and for that, all I require is piece and quiet in any first class lounge before take off, and legroom in a reclining seat for sleep both ways. If they could do that [ as they did with " club Orlando" on te old planes] I would pay for that. I do not require, on a journey such as that, bar services, massage etc Its all about realising what market you are aiming at. Continental leg room is good, incidently, we just flew with them to NY and the onto Orlando - excellent service, although not Virgin of course.
The debate seems to be about travelling Y or PE. But what about another alternative - let's call it Y+. This would be exactly the same service as all Y pax, but in the rear half of the Y cabin two rows of seats are removed and the space allocated across those remaining, whilst in the front half the seat pitch remains the same as now. I would pay a premium for the Y+ seat pitch.
One of my reasons to travel in Y ( I am an extremely high user of my FCCC - I always travel PE and UC for reward flights) is that I think what I could spend the money on by not travelling in PE or UC - usually the answer is 'on the hotel room'. As I will be in the hotel room a multiple number of hours longer than I am on the flight, I tend to choose Y to travel and upgrade the hotel room.
Finally, if I am not boring you too much, I see all those advertisements on TV and in the press for UCS. All the costs of those advertisements come out of the UC seat revenue, so were I to pay for a UC seat I can't help thinking how many advertising executives I am helping to stay in jobs. Tight, I know!
One of my reasons to travel in Y ( I am an extremely high user of my FCCC - I always travel PE and UC for reward flights) is that I think what I could spend the money on by not travelling in PE or UC - usually the answer is 'on the hotel room'. As I will be in the hotel room a multiple number of hours longer than I am on the flight, I tend to choose Y to travel and upgrade the hotel room.
Finally, if I am not boring you too much, I see all those advertisements on TV and in the press for UCS. All the costs of those advertisements come out of the UC seat revenue, so were I to pay for a UC seat I can't help thinking how many advertising executives I am helping to stay in jobs. Tight, I know!
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