Will they ever bring back silver service to UC?

This is where VS have to be VERY careful! Yes BA are having a local difficulty at this moment in time with their caterers, however, even dedicated VS supporters on this web site have admitted tat BA catering is superior to VS!

Can't recall if anyone said that BA brought metal cutlery back to first in May, and just read that Air Canada are bringing metal back to their first class. So come on Virgin!

I agree that loads aren't that high for UC. I have been UC several times over the past year and I have enjoyed rows of empty seats.

IMHO, I think VS needs to stop concentrating on the "extras" such as redoing the CHs etc. and start focusing on the core areas esp. in flight. Pax are only in the CH and on the ground for about an hour or two and are on the plane for 7 hours plus. Therefore, I think improvements need to be made in the aircraft, rather than on the ground.
The worst thing VS could do is at the moment is start reducing service now that the rest of the airline industry is putting flat-beds in biz. I'm sure just about every UC customer will pay an extra 10/20 quid for the satin cushions and flowers etc. to make the metal tube you are hurtling across the sky in just that little bit more habitable.

My rant over for this week!:D;)

Cheers,
VS045

As a general point I agree with you VS045. When I'm at T3 I spend an hour in the CH and an hour buggering about shopping and walking ... compared to 10 or 11 hours to LA or SFO I think I know where the effort should be.

[Scrooge]

and with the limited number of club houses out there LAX springs to mind in the air is where it counts..NZ is looking real good to me right now for the LAX-LHR run next year

Originally posted by jetwet1
and with the limited number of club houses out there LAX springs to mind in the air is where it counts..NZ is looking real good to me right now for the LAX-LHR run next year

The Air NZ lounge has just been re-furnished, and doubled in size too.

info is here.

Wonder why VS dont share this lounge (rather than AC?)

[Scrooge]

thats a very good point..probably NZ want to much money

Originally posted by VS045
IMHO, I think VS needs to stop concentrating on the "extras" such as redoing the CHs etc. and start focusing on the core areas esp. in flight. Pax are only in the CH and on the ground for about an hour or two and are on the plane for 7 hours plus. Therefore, I think improvements need to be made in the aircraft, rather than on the ground.
The worst thing VS could do is at the moment is start reducing service now that the rest of the airline industry is putting flat-beds in biz. I'm sure just about every UC customer will pay an extra 10/20 quid for the satin cushions and flowers etc. to make the metal tube you are hurtling across the sky in just that little bit more habitable.

My rant over for this week!:D;)

Cheers,
VS045

Hear hear!

Couldn't agree more.

Cheers
sky

Originally posted by jetwet1
and with the limited number of club houses out there LAX springs to mind in the air is where it counts..NZ is looking real good to me right now for the LAX-LHR run next year

There are some very good prices in the GDS for that run. Ironically enough however the LHR-LAX-AKL-LAX-LHR run is cheaper than the LHR-LAX-LHR run.

Cheers
sky

from the 02 SEP also the Red Satin cushions that are on each seat in upper wil not be there also

Just heard from someone on yesterday's VS045 who confirms that there was no sign of the little red cushions [n]

EC

Originally posted by fozzyo
Ok so UC has now lost the lite-bites, cushions, flowers on the bar, metal cuttlery, VIE products (moisturiser etc) from the ameniety kit, the polo's, the polo's (so gutted about that needs a 2nd mention). What else can they possibly do to "add-value"? [:(!]

If they want to cut weight how about making the duty-free service pre-order only? That way you are only carrying exactly what you need on the flight - i can't believe the lovely little red cusions weigh more then two or three bottles of gin.

Foz xx

Duty Free is going pre order only next year. Crew oxygen from crew rest areas have also been taken off. We only hsave one bottle instead of 8

[preiffer]

Originally posted by virgin is the best
Duty Free is going pre order only next year. Crew oxygen from crew rest areas have also been taken off. We only hsave one bottle instead of 8

FFS. Is someone looking at the entire cockpit area? - I mean, are all those heavy intruments REALLY needed? [:(!][:0]

This is just stupid, next we will have no carpet then they will make the TV's smaller and so on and so on. I hope this doesn't get to out of control [:0].

[Pete]

Originally posted by virgin is the best

Duty Free is going pre order only next year.

Whilst that doesn't really effect me that much since I always pre-order so I can get the miles, it does seem a little short-sighted to turn down all that impluse-purchase revenue. That won't be a saving, that'll be a loss.

Pete

To be honest Pete I don't know if losing Duty Free would be a great loss. Unless Virgin Is The Best has insider information that I am not privvy to then they were (up until last week) looking at ways to improve the duty free service. However we don't make a huge profit on it generally but on some routes (Lagos) we make a killing, they buy us out of stock completely, quite amazing! It's possible that they may look at pre order only on US routes where duty free sales are low but increase the range on Lagos and holiday routes where spending is higher. Believe me if they thought removal of duty free would be a loss of profits then they would not do it!

The product changes concern me as times are obviously as tough they keep telling us. I don't think its the company trying to be tight but more a case of tightening our belts. I wonder if it hadn't been leaked by VITB that these product changes were happening, how many people would have actually noticed. True regulars flyers would, but would it really change the enjoyment of a flight? I'm not sure. I certainly dont support cost cutting when it is visible to the customer and I can assure you all any negative feedback I get from Upper Class pax onboard will be documented straight on the flight report. Lets hope this is where it ends.

With regards to the Oxygen missing from the crew rest areas I know this has been done with the full knowledge that our safety is not being compromised. The CAA would no way have allowed the removal of that if they felt we were in danger so it is an irrelevant piece of information for this topic. That's the sort of cost cutting that we need that is not visible to you guys, the customer.

Thank you enjoy the sunshine

Thanks SB for an as usual thoughtful comment. Are times that tough? On the one hand we have Virgin telling us that UC has high loads (sufficient to put out in a PR) and we believe or know that the fuel crisis is being passed on totally and more to customers ... so why are times tough? Perhaps its because there's a lot of cost in purchasing new planes to expand, and that's being passed on through cuts and changes. Perhaps also because there's a more commercial management in place and they want to see higher margins?

[fozzyo]

Have Virgin had a real shift in commercial direction or something? They seem to be making cut backs all over the place! These are just the ones that I am aware of, or are rumoured to be proposed:

1) Outsourcing all US ground staff
2) Removing satin cushions from UC
3) Removing the vase and flowers from the UC bar
3) Cutting the Lite Bites from the UC menu on certain sectors
4) Drastically cutting service and food levels in UC on post 9pm flights (GNF service)
5) Mid flight snacks on night flights in Economy no longer offered
6) UC amenity kit has items removed or replaced with cheaper ones
7) Economy amenity kits having tissues and notepad removed
8) Duty free may be becoming pre-order only or pre-order on certain routes
9) A noticeable reduction in the availability of reward flights on certain sectors - West Coast USA being one.
10) My impression is less Flying Club Gold events

As southern belle says most pax won't notice these changes. Its just the regular flyers who will, and lets face it I'm probably one of the least frequent flyers of amoungst regular posters to the forum, so these comments aren't out of personal experience or frustration. Just a desire that when I do fly with my fave airline I get the best possible experience. And also that airline continues to grow and develop and continues to be the best in the skies.

I'm just interested in what has triggered this - the company seems to have had a huge shift in commercial priorities and direction. Several years ago there would have been some serious strategic decisions to be made about products and services and that required significant investment, namely:

1) Development and roll-out of the UCS
2) Implementation of V:Port
3) Decision to purchase a fleet of the A380's
4) Expansion of the VS network
5) Significant expansion and refit of the LHR Clubhouse

Everyone of these has been welcomed, applauded and got pax excited. And importantly they have only received positive feedback. The only one that has caused minor complaints is V:Port, problems with early releases of the software, large boxes under the aisle seats. But the positives have far out shone the negatives.

Would it be fair to say that the cost cutting exercises have started in this past year. When I last few in September 2004, my first UC flight, I don't recall any of this talk. There has seem to have been a shift in the discussion in recent months.

A fair chunk of that discussion has focused around UC pax and products, a lot of the regular flyers on here are business flyers fortunate enough to have flights paid for to take them away on work. These are the high revenue guys that Virgin want to keep happy and loyal to the airline. But being high-revenue they are also high-cost. So outside the US staffing issue a lot of the cuts are affecting the front cabins of the aircraft. Lets face it, there isn't really that much that can be cut from the Economy service. Yes ameniety kits can be trimmed, the meal maybe cut back a little - get rid of the tub of lettuce, they have opted for cheaper desserts. But beyond charging pax for meals what else can be cut there?

There is a very fine line that VS are treading on, and starting to slip off with these cost savings / margin increases. They need to be particularly careful. As southern belle has said, if they want to make cost savings then do it in the right places where we don't notice or aren't affected.

VS has seen a significant rise in the number of Business travellers. So I would guess that has translated into a very welcome increase in revenue. 352,095 Upper Class passengers can only be a good thing - it must show they are doing things right. Or rather they were doing things right to attract them.

Whats changed? Are VS getting too cocky and think now we've got them lets increase the margin and hope they won't notice. When the decisions were made to improve the services as shown above they would have budgeted for an increase in revenue folllowing the product improvements - have the numbers fallen short of what they expected?

There has been much discussion about what has been cut, can I ask does anyone know what has been added? How do J, D and W fares compare to a year or two years ago?

If 60% of the 352,095 pax who flew were J or D fares and they paid an extra £50 a ticket that would be a revenue increase of £10,562,850.

I know that is a very simplistic view of the situation and I know this cannot be done IRL, but it demonstrates a point. The majority of J and D fares are paid for by business, when paying upwards of £3,000 a ticket would an extra £50 make that much of a difference to the decision to purchase it? But that £50 could make a significant difference to the perception of the airline and its products which retain those all important J fares.

Just some thoughts on the current situation
Mat xx

[Nottingham Nick]

Foz

Some excellent points, well made [y] but you appear to have overlooked what must be the single biggest reason for all of the cutbacks.

The price of oil... both current and future. Since the start of the year it has risen from less than $40 a barrel to over $66 a barrel.[:0] Who knows where it will be when the cost of Katrina is taken into account.

This will have a massive impact on all of the budgets that VS (and all other airlines) will have set aside for future growth / profitability.

Nick

[fozzyo]

D'oh! A very simple explanation, that also answers the timescale issue.

I guess, all airlines are cutting costs across the board - there was mention of reducing luggage allowances in another thread. They are all probably waiting for one to be the first and increases prices to cover these costs and then all the others can very quickly follow. But no-one ever wants to be the first to put prices up.

[Pete]

Originally posted by fozzyo

If 60% of the 352,095 pax who flew were J or D fares and they paid an extra £50 a ticket that would be a revenue increase of £10,562,850.

I know that is a very simplistic view of the situation and I know this cannot be done IRL, but it demonstrates a point. The majority of J and D fares are paid for by business, when paying upwards of £3,000 a ticket would an extra £50 make that much of a difference to the decision to purchase it? But that £50 could make a significant difference to the perception of the airline and its products which retain those all important J fares.

Sadly I think it would. Especially on those business fares where it's up to the PA or designated travel buyer in an organisation to book the fares. The majority of fares in each bucket class are pegged to match the competition on the route. On one flight, paying an extra 50 quid may not seem a big deal - but if you are managing the budget for a dozen employees who travel 10 flights in a year, that's 6,000 quid per year. If the same bucket class on BA is 6 grand cheaper, the PA is going to have a hard time justifying booking VS.

But, that said, the little cut backs here and there are a worrying trend. Removing the red cushions will probably not be noticed; but removing the duty free service will. Cut backs in food service are also the sorts of things that receive comment. Remember when you used to get a choc ice mid flight in Economy? People still talk about that on boards like the Dibb, and for the sake of a 10p choc ice, is it worth the negative view that VS are "just another airline"? With the charter companies biting at Virgin's ankles on the B&S routes, VS need to differentiate rather than homogenise their product.

Virgin's ace card is the Suites - but that only applies to the Upper Class Cabin. They won't be able to rely on the Suites forever, though, and sooner or later their competition will all catch up. In Economy they still serve free drinks and have a pretty good IFE offering, but they get panned for the seat pitch - it's also where they get the most falk for spotty service levels. Their once-revolutionary Premium Economy product looks like its been left to stagnate, and the rumoured revamps seem less likely if they need to save money by not loading a vase of flowers in Upper Class.

I would imagine that someone, somewhere, has a monster Excel spreadsheet, and is tweaking figures all over the place to maximise the profitability of the company. That's absolutely fine, and I'm rather proud of the fact VS are a profitable airline whilst many US majors are stuggling to get out of bankruptcy protection. What I would demand of the management, however, is to be honest with their passengers and not dress up a cost cutting measure as a new 'feature'. I'd also hope they don't lose sight of why their customers are fiercly loyal - which I can only describe as the 'Branson Ideology'. If indeed, as has been suggested, SRB has taken a step back from the running of the airline and the management team are purely looking at the bottom line, Virgin are in trouble. There was a book published back in the 80s called 'The Macintosh Way'. It brilliantly describes why companies like Nordstrum in the US keep their customers satisfied.

If it sounds as if I've suddenly gone all anti-VS, I haven't. They're still my airline of choice, but I post this message because I don't want to see them go down the road they appear to be sniffing at. If I had wanted to fly BA, I'd have booked a ticket with them.

Pete

Pete, I agree with you completely. However, we are considering BA for our next tranche of travelling, particularly if our upcoming jaunt to LA disappoints. I am sure there are plenty of frequent VS travellers in the same situation.

With regard to the extea-£50 argument, Virgin cannot realistically do this due to the IATA pricing structure.

BC

[fozzyo]

Originally posted by BlackCat
Pete, I agree with you completely. However, we are considering BA for our next tranche of travelling, particularly if our upcoming jaunt to LA disappoints. I am sure there are plenty of frequent VS travellers in the same situation.

Something VS must be very aware of. Out of interest does anyone know if BA are doing anything similar at the moment or how the increased fuel prices are affecting them.

Originally posted by BlackCat
With regard to the extea-£50 argument, Virgin cannot realistically do this due to the IATA pricing structure.

Whats that?

[mitchja]

I would think the current price of fuel is on all the airlines minds at the moment.

There's some talk that above $80 a barrel will be the breaking point for several airlines.

VS always have been more forward thinking than BA so by making these 'minor*' changes now, will in the long term, be more benificial for VS and their profits. 9/11 showed this. VS immediately implemented cost cutting steps in anticipitation for lower trans-Atlantic loads which seemed to pay off. It took BA some time to do the same.

*As already mentioned many pax wont notice much different. Yes many of us on here will see a difference but also dont forget that we are very aware of the the workings of VS and so know what to except. Most pax dont.

Regards

I posted something similar to this in the airlines forum a while back, I can't comment on the math and if anyone can corroborate or argue please do. If you believe this though, then Virgin is charging pretty much like for like for fuel levies and it isn't the cost of fuel that's hurting, actually the contrary. So as Pete and I have said, the little snips and cuts here are there are probably driven by new management and their desire to wring greater profit out of the operation ... this from the Travel Insider btw:

[blue]High fuel costs are being used by the airlines both as an excuse for massive losses and as an excuse for raising fares.....

Cut and pasted copyright material cut by Mod.... Nick
The article Slinky refers to can be found here.