Some help please - the Dublin fare route

I have just done a test for LHR - Dubai (my actual route)

Starting in Dublin, changing at LHR to Dubai is about £1500 upper/business on all legs, return. Starting in London and ending in London is about £1900.

Forgive the silly questions! I know some have been answered but I had difficulty following it

1. Why ? And can it be true!

2. Do I have to go back to Dublin -can I hop off in London on the way back? Assuming no checked luggage

3. I assume (?) I actually have to fly from Dublin on outward?

4. Surely some downside, apart from the time?

Thank you and sorry for asking about stuff already covered.

1) Yes it's true! Partly because taxes are lower in Ireland but mainly because VS (and BA) want to encourage Irish passengers to fly with them via London rather than direct or via another hub, so they offer highly competitive fares.

2) Yes you can hop off in London. There's been anecdotal evidence of BA cracking down by insisting on checking baggage to its final destination, threatening travel agents with sanctions and even cancelling Avios accounts but no such reports on VS.

3) Yes you do. If you miss the first leg you risk having the entire ticket cancelled.

4) Nope! Just the extra time and inconvenience. £400 is actually quite a modest saving - I saved £1200 to MCO last month!

Incidentally Emirates fly direct from Dublin to Dubai, the business class fare is usually about €2000 (£1480) so a similar price to the via London one.

You may want to check starting from AMS, FRA and CDG as well as it's the same principal and you might make a bigger saving.

Remember to include the cost of the positioning flight (and possible hotel the night before) too in your calculations.

tonty is right - only £1362 if you start in Brussels (10-17 July).

Thank you both - been on VS for many years and never realised! Even better as I live near Stanstead and flying out to Dublin or AMS beforehand is about as quick as getting to LHR

Very grateful

So what's the status of a final leg, if you're doing a BA/VS VS/BA crossover (especially if its LGW to LHR switchover in middle)?

I would have thought BA would only be bothered about their final leg if you'd booked it all with them...

I personally like BRU as a starting point but DUB was also pretty easy and cheap to get to because of plentiful Ryanair flights out to make the starting point.

So what's the status of a final leg, if you're doing a BA/VS VS/BA crossover (especially if its LGW to LHR switchover in middle)?

I would have thought BA would only be bothered about their final leg if you'd booked it all with them...

It's a complicated fare structure, so basically a portion of the overall fare goes to BA, which is probably less on a ticket like this than if they were able to sell that CW seat as a straight (i.e. non-connecting) revenue fare. I guess potentially it messes up manifests, meal orders etc.

I suppose you could have your Avios account shut down, and technically you are in breach of your contract of carriage, so they could bill you for the difference in fare between the journey you actually took and the journey you booked - remember this chap?

That said: it's never happened to me or anyone I know personally, and I've done it a lot. Were I a hardened BA-flyer or Avios collector, I'd probably think twice, though.

So what's the status of a final leg, if you're doing a BA/VS VS/BA crossover (especially if its LGW to LHR switchover in middle)?

I would have thought BA would only be bothered about their final leg if you'd booked it all with them...

It's a complicated fare structure, so basically a portion of the overall fare goes to BA, which is probably less on a ticket like this than if they were able to sell that CW seat as a straight (i.e. non-connecting) revenue fare. I guess potentially it messes up manifests, meal orders etc.

I suppose you could have your Avios account shut down, and technically you are in breach of your contract of carriage, so they could bill you for the difference in fare between the journey you actually took and the journey you booked - remember this chap?

That said: it's never happened to me or anyone I know personally, and I've done it a lot. Were I a hardened BA-flyer or Avios collector, I'd probably think twice, though.

I guess it depends if you want the 40-80TP (there and back again) and extra 2000 avios. If you want to drop the last leg, then don't put your BAEC number in there... Virgin might not be that bothered. I suspect it wouldn't.

Seems much less likely than dropping last leg of BA TP though...

So what's the status of a final leg, if you're doing a BA/VS VS/BA crossover (especially if its LGW to LHR switchover in middle)?

I would have thought BA would only be bothered about their final leg if you'd booked it all with them...

It's a complicated fare structure, so basically a portion of the overall fare goes to BA, which is probably less on a ticket like this than if they were able to sell that CW seat as a straight (i.e. non-connecting) revenue fare. I guess potentially it messes up manifests, meal orders etc.

I suppose you could have your Avios account shut down, and technically you are in breach of your contract of carriage, so they could bill you for the difference in fare between the journey you actually took and the journey you booked - remember this chap?

That said: it's never happened to me or anyone I know personally, and I've done it a lot. Were I a hardened BA-flyer or Avios collector, I'd probably think twice, though.

So presumably the VS check-in staff don't raise an eyebrow when you ask for your luggage to be labelled LHR not DUB? What do you say to them? That's the bit that's always worried me.

So presumably the VS check-in staff don't raise an eyebrow when you ask for your luggage to be labelled LHR not DUB? What do you say to them? That's the bit that's always worried me.

On the whole no. But if you're at all worried, the safest way is to force a short-check of your luggage by say flying JFK-LHR/LGW-DUB, or by putting an overnight in London between the two legs. This usually does not affect the price. There's no way, then, to interline the luggage.

Otherwise say something like you are meeting relatives in London between flights, and have lots of presents to give them from your luggage.

This ex-EU trick also works with a BA/DL fare, by the way, which you can buy via VS (if you want to put it on a VS CC).

Virgin might not be that bothered. I suspect it wouldn't.

They're not, I don't think. But what we don't exactly know is the fare structure split between VS and BA, nor the fare-recoupment process for no-shows on the BA legs, and how that's worked out in the back-end between the airlines, if at all.

If BA notice a sizeable number of no-shows on their European ex-UK flights are post-tatl-VS connections, then they may try and recoup that cost from VS, at which point VS and BA might be forced to more closely monitor their interlined bookings.

I think this is a lot of "ifs" though...

Contractually, BA cannot claim from Virgin (or anyone) because they (BA) have been paid for the price of the ticket issued. So no breach of contract by Virgin. It might force a re-examination of their structure etc, but nothing could be done with tickets already issued.

Also, my conditions of carriage do not say I have to travel. They regulate what I do if I travel. Unless it says you have to complete the whole journey (can't find it anywhere), then I've performed my side of the bargain by paying. That is why you cannot always get money back - they perform their side by running the service.

All that said, I will still take only hand luggage for the return as I do want to get off in London! No point pushing it

Also, my conditions of carriage do not say I have to travel. They regulate what I do if I travel. Unless it says you have to complete the whole journey (can't find it anywhere), then I've performed my side of the bargain by paying. That is why you cannot always get money back - they perform their side by running the service.

All that said, I will still take only hand luggage for the return as I do want to get off in London! No point pushing it

I've noticed this kind of thing on US carriers, so assume it's there on on European carriers, but perhaps not:

"Fares apply for travel only between the points for which they are published. Tickets may not be purchased and
used at fare(s) from an initial departure point on the Ticket which is before the Passenger’s actual point of origin
of travel, or to a more distant point(s) than the Passenger’s actual destination being traveled even when the
purchase and use of such Tickets would produce a lower fare."

The example is from UA.

The airlines might see the ex-EU trick as a problem but it's a problem they've created and, given that the fares are still available, clearly have no real inclination to eliminate.

If they really wanted to stop it they could very easily make their fares the same EU-wide. But of course they won't do that so they'll just have to put up with a few people playing them at their own game.

But in any case I'd have thought it's only a tiny minority of passengers who even know about the ex-EU trick, let alone take advantage of it, so in the grand scheme of things it's a minor irritation for the likes of BA rather than a major problem.

"Fares apply for travel only between the points for which they are published. Tickets may not be purchased and used at fare(s)from an initial departure point on the Ticket which is before the Passenger’s actual point of origin of travel, or to a more distant point(s) than the Passenger’s actual destination being traveled even when the purchase and use of such Tickets would produce a lower fare."


But that's not what we're trying to do is it. We're not trying to fly from somewhere before DUB/AMS/BRU on the outward leg. We're all wise in any case to the likelihood of any tampering with that leg being likely to cause cancellation of the entire enterprise.

Equally, we're not trying to fly to a more distant point than DUB/AMS/BRU on the return, we're aiming to stop at a less distant point.

That said, I really don't want to be the test case!

Given the number of times the 'can I skip the last leg?' question gets asked on the Flyer Talk BA Board BA have far more to worry about with their own customers doing it before they worry about it happening with other airlines.

There have been reports that BA is cracking down in a limited way e.g. out stations refusing to short tag bags unless absolutely necessary and the odd audit of a BAEC account.

It may affect of some people do / don't do an ex-EU but it won't stop everyone as there are (in most cases) easy ways around it - book connection from a different airport or for a few days later so you have to collect your luggage.

What I'm really hoping for is someone complaining that their bags ended up in DUB/AMS/CDG and how awful BA are refusing to repatriate them to the UK on the basis that they delivered them in accordance with the booked ticket.


But ex-EU type fares happen on all airlines.

A few years ago it was cheaper to me to fly to the US via Zurich on Swiss than it would have been direct from ZRH on the same plane (and yes I had to pay APD and it was still cheaper).

"Fares apply for travel only between the points for which they are published. Tickets may not be purchased and used at fare(s)from an initial departure point on the Ticket which is before the Passenger’s actual point of origin of travel, or to a more distant point(s) than the Passenger’s actual destination being traveled even when the purchase and use of such Tickets would produce a lower fare."


But that's not what we're trying to do is it. We're not trying to fly from somewhere before DUB/AMS/BRU on the outward leg. We're all wise in any case to the likelihood of any tampering with that leg being likely to cause cancellation of the entire enterprise.

Equally, we're not trying to fly to a more distant point than DUB/AMS/BRU on the return, we're aiming to stop at a less distant point.

That said, I really don't want to be the test case!

Let's say we're talking JFK to BRU via LON on the return. I'd read it that you are purchasing a fare to a more distant point (BRU) on the ticket than the Passenger’s actual destination (LON).

But remember the example I pulled is for UA. BA is slightly different:

3c1) Your ticket is valid only for the transportation shown on it from the place of departure through any agreed stopping places to the final place of destination. The fare you have paid is based on our tariff for the transportation shown on your ticket and forms part of your contract with us.

3c2) Your ticket is no longer valid if you do not use all the coupons in the sequence provided in the ticket. Where you change your travel without our agreement and the price for the resulting transportation you intend to undertake is greater than the price originally paid, you will be requested to pay the difference in price. Failure to pay the price applicable to your revised transportation will result in refusal of carriage.

3c3) If you want to change all or part of your transportation, you must contact us beforehand. We will work out the revised fare for your changed transportation. You will have the option of either accepting the revised fare or maintaining your original transportation.

But gumshoe and tontybear make a good points. If BA really wanted to do something about it, they would have done so by now.

What I'm really hoping for is someone complaining that their bags ended up in DUB/AMS/CDG and how awful BA are refusing to repatriate them to the UK on the basis that they delivered them in accordance with the booked ticket.

If you don't board the flight, any bags will be offloaded.

I suspect that BA aren't too worried about VS customers doing this, as it is Virgin loosing out, not them.

BA and VS are fully aware of this practise, BA even published an article praising/rewarding a man who was doing an ex-EU trip as a cheap way to get status.

Yes there is evidence of BA auditing accounts, but this has not lead to any accounts being closed AFAIK. The rumour comes out because when BA audit an account (they do it randomly), they remove all Avios until they finish, and they can be a little slow sometimes.

BA have issued guidance to a few travel agents about how they shouldn't be encouraging it.

Hi

I'm trying to book Upper Class with Virgin using this method. Any recommendations on the websites to compare fares as can only find prices for economy. When I enter First or Business the search engines state no flights found.

Cheers
KC

Hi

I'm trying to book Upper Class with Virgin using this method. Any recommendations on the websites to compare fares as can only find prices for economy. When I enter First or Business the search engines state no flights found.

Cheers
KC

Any of the online travel agents should offer this. I've found Expedia the easiest to use -- try their Multiple Destinations option. Virgin don't operate a First Class service (Upper is Business), but searching for Business Class should get you the results you're looking for.

Hi

I'm trying to book Upper Class with Virgin using this method. Any recommendations on the websites to compare fares as can only find prices for economy. When I enter First or Business the search engines state no flights found.

Cheers
KC

What route are you looking at. Which website?

I prefer to use google flights to to the initial search to get an idea of route options and prices and only then use either the airline or a travel agents site using the data for the flights I have already chosen.

I find google flights to be much quicker in searching than expedia.

Thanks for replies. I'm looking for London to Las Vegas and returning from Los Angeles

That's what I'm doing in March (albeit into LAX out of LAS). Just over £1200 in UC. Booked with STA Travel.

Hi gumshoe
Have you booked that from Dublin? When I search business on STA the Dublin to London connection is also searched at business class and it puts the price into several thousands. I can get cheap economy tickets but not UC. Any advice/ tips?

Cheers,