Tier points & rolling 13 month periods

Hi all, I have a question regarding earning tier points over a rolling 13 month period. I've been pouring over my V-Book as well as VFlyer & VA.com but still not sure I fully understand!

The situation is this:-

Currently FC Red with 8 tier points. These were earned in Sept 05, 5 points on 14/9 flying UC to SFO & 3 points returning from LAS on 23/9 in PE.

This coming autumn we will be flying UC to LAX on 28/9 and returning UC from BOS on 13/10.

Crucial question: Do this autumn's travel dates fall within the 13 month rolling period, ie. we will end up with a total of 18 tier points on 13/10 meaning we hit Silver?

In the example on VA.com it states As a Flying Club Red member, you need a total of 15 tier points within a rolling 13 month period (e.g. 01 Jan 2005 to 31 Jan 2006) to move up from Red to Silver membership. So in our case is the equivalent time window 14/9/05 - 13/10/06, in other words exactly 13 months just like in VA's January example, and if so will we be home & dry on Silver?

On VA.com under the Your Tier Points section it allows you to enter future dates to check how close you are to reaching Silver, but it only allows you to select last day of each month. When I select 30/9/06 and click Calculate it still says I need 7 points to reach silver, ie. it is still including my 8 points earned in Sept 05. This implies therefore that if it allowed me to select 13/10/06 it would still include my Sept 05 flights as they are within the 13 month rolling period.

The thing that has confused me is that the V-Book says Tier Points are only valid for 12 months at a time. So if you earned 5 points for a qualifying flight on 8th May 2004, they will disappear from your account on 9th May 2005. To me this implies that my points earned during Sept 05 will no longer be included in my account at end of Sept 06?

Sorry if I'm being truly hopeless with all this! It's just that it has only just dawned on Steve & me that we may, just, reach Silver this autumn! That being the case we may then stand a chance of hitting Gold over the following year as in 2007 we are planning something along the lines of a Great Escapade

All advice welcomed!

I'm not sure if this will give you a definitive but I have two bits of info for you. I spoke to a VS agent a few days ago about a similar issue and the answer below relate to Au (as that is my status) but may apply to others. I am sure Richard or Michael (who seems to be the TP expert) can give you more info.

My membership expires in December and will continue to do so, but I can earn TP in Jan to the previous year if I need to.

The membership year appears to run from start of month to end of month, so for example my membership year runs from Jan 1st thru Dec 31st (but see note above).

The reason I asked this is was I thought that my membership year would move forward 1 months every year because of the 13-month issue, but I was informed this was not the case.

As I say, someone will surely have some more definite info for you.

Paul

[preiffer]

Hi Paul,

I'm pretty sure my membership year does always move forward by one month each time I renew. The 13 month rolling window seems to have this effect.

I know mine moved from July to August last year, and I'm pretty sure it went from June to July the year before - but I lose track [ii]

Well now I'm confused. I can't remember my membership renewal dates from the last couple of years which is why I called. Due to the timings of my travel if it is to move forward by 1 month each year I am likely to have a problem re-qualifying for Au in the next 1 or 2 years.

Oh well, I bow to your knowledge on this, but I do wish when I phone the Prem team that they have the CORRECT info. Fancy a job on the prem team

Paul

Thanks Paul. Key thing though for us is whether or not our points earned on 14/9 & 23/9 last year will still be valid when we return back from BOS on 13/10 this year? I really hope so as it means we'll have made Silver

From what I can see we should be OK, as I mentioned in my original post, VA.com make it very clear that we need a total of 15 tier points within a rolling 13 month period (e.g. 01 Jan 2005 to 31 Jan 2006). All I am doing is applying Virgin's example which relates to 1st of the month to my example which relates to 14th of month and counting forward 13 months from there!

[RichardMannion]

Sorry if its not very clear - in terms of earnign TP to move up a tier it is within a strict 12 month period. In terms of requalifcation, it is not a true rollign 13 months, it will be a minimum of 12 months, and up to nearly 13 months, depending on your anniversary date of hitting silver or gold. So if you hit Silver on 5th of month, you will have from 6th until 28th/30th/31st of that month + another 12 months to get enough TP to requalify.

http://www.v-flyer.com/faq.asp?faq=#6

Thanks,
Richard

Thanks for that Richard. Many apologies for sounding clueless but I still don't understand why on the VA web site it says As a Flying Club Red member, you need a total of 15 tier points within a rolling 13 month period (e.g. 01 Jan 2005 to 31 Jan 2006)to move up from Red to Silver membership but in your reply you say that to move up a tier it is within a strict 12 month period?

Even in the example that Virgin give when you count up the elapsed time between 1st Jan 05 and 31st Jan 06 it is exactly 13 months, purely because they are allowing you to include Jan 05 and Jan 06.

So in my case, where I am desparate to know if my TP's from 14/9/06 & 23/9/06 will still be valid on Oct 13th '06, it seems to me that I am (just) within the same time window that Virgin actually quote as their guidance example, ie. within the rolling 13 months [?]

Sorry about needing to double check all this, it's just that it could make a huge difference to us eventually making Gold

[RichardMannion]

Hi Vegas,

You have both me and the one other person I know at FC that knows TP's going nuts now. The website is wrong as it stands and raises questions around the whole process as it is so utterly confusing for an end customer - so a mail is being composed to the correct person at VS that has responisbility for this.

Basically there is what the website says, and then there is what the inhouse Oracle database says, and both have flaws that have been identified as a result of this thread.

How it looks like it will work moving forward will be this:

a) You have to earn 15 or 40 TP within a strict 12 month period to hit Silver or Gold. TP for the purpose of moving up a tier will last 12 months only, so if you earn 5TP on 14th July 06, they will expire on 13th July 07.

b) At the point you hit 15 or 40 TP, you hit the qualification milestone. From that point on for the first requalification year, you have up until the end of that month + 12 months to earn 10 or 30TP (this is done so any TP already used don't count towards requal, but can count towards earning the 40 required to get Gold. So say you earned 15 TP in a 3 month period, and obviously make Silver, the points are not reset in regards to attaining Gold (but are for requal), so if you were to earn another 25Tp in the next 9 months you woud hit the required 40. The 15 or 40 TP only have to be within a strict 12 month period (any 12 month, it doesn't have to be Jan-Dec like some carriers).

c) This 'upto 13 months' period, will then take you to the end of a calendar month (which ties into what the website shows). The following requal years you will have a true 13 month period to requal, as long as you have retained your status within the past requal period. The quick way to tell which month you have the end of until to hit the required number of TP's is to look at your Ag or Au membership card and look at your expiry date - take a month off of it. The reason the cards have a month's grace is to allow time (hopefully) for your renewal membership pack to arrive. Obviously if you have not earned enough TP, you will still get usage of that card until it expires.

So basically - the website is wrong for the information it shows in regards to period available to move up a tier - this should be fixed soon.

Will have a proper update tomorrow when the flaws identified are pointed out to the correct individual and corrective action is taken.

Thanks,
Richard

That's great Richard, thanks ever so much for taking the time to reply so clearly & concisely. As you'll have guessed I was hanging on to the hope that we may hit Silver this autumn and that would have meant a chance of Gold in 2007 if we end up doing a Great Escapade!

Incidentally, it is not just the you need a total of 15 tier points within a rolling 13 month period text on VA's website that is wrong, so is the Tier Points Calculator (immediately below the aforementioned text) *** The calculator below shows just how close you are to reaching Flying Club Silver membership*** When I select 30/09/06 it still calculates that on that date I will only need 7 TP's to hit silver. In other words it is still taking into account my 8 TP's earned in Sept 05! I now know from you that my Sept 05 TP's will not be valid come the end of Sept 06 as they will have disappeared exactly 12 months after they were credited.

Thanks again Richard for being so clear. Here's to Steve & me eventually hitting Silver, probably in 2007!

[RichardMannion]

Don't worry, with some careful planning of your GE you may find yourself getting the required 40 TP within a 12 month period; remember that TP don't reset to 0 when you hit Silver for the purpose of getting to Gold (moving up a tier), they just expire naturally at the end of their 12 month life.

Will update you all tmrw.

Thanks,
Richard

Originally posted by RichardMannion

http://www.v-flyer.com/faq.asp?faq=#6

I was trying to find this the other day for something else and couldn't see a link to the FAQ from anywhere on the site (other than in the forum messages). Did I miss the link somewhere?

Paul

Originally posted by p17blo
I was trying to find this the other day for something else and couldn't see a link to the FAQ from anywhere on the site (other than in the forum messages). Did I miss the link somewhere?

Nope - currently, it's only linked from this post
For ref, the link to the full FAQ is:
http://www.v-flyer.com/faq.asp

Cheers

Michael

Originally posted by mcuth
Nope - currently, it's only linked from this post

Aye! That would be the forum message I found the link from so the search for faq and you did turn this up for me, just wondered if I made the job hard for myself missing an obvious link (which it appears that I hadn't).

Thanks for the confirmation Michael.

Paul

Richard, just thought I should also point out that it is not just the web page on va.com that is wrong, so is the Flying Club Guidebook with is a downloadable PDF booklet under Downloadable Forms. In this booklet they provide clear examples on achieving 15 TP's to reach Silver and 40 to reach Gold. Alongside these examples they state Please note: The table above is an example of tier points earned over a 13 month period.

In all honesty Richard I'm wondering if Virgin should honour those people who would have reached Silver/Gold had their TP's remained valid for this 13 month period? Yes I guess I'm taking a selfish standpoint, but the guidance I had been going by (until you kindly intervened) was Virgin's extremely clear example that you need a total of 15 tier points within a rolling 13 month period (e.g. 01 Jan 2005 to 31 Jan 2006).

If this were the case I would be Silver this autumn as my TP's from Sept '05 would still count! In fact are VA in breach given that FC members only have VA's clearly published rules to go by? If the website instructions are wrong, as you have pointed out, surely it should not be the FC member who loses out? I really do think VA have shot themselves in the foot by providing such a clear example using actual dates that equate to a 13 month period. I think it would be poor show if the error is "quietly put right" and people out there who genuinely believed that their TP's will last into a 13th month suddenly find out VA's instructions were wrong all along!

I live in hope

[RichardMannion]

Hi Vegas,

I understand what you are saying, I know exactly which text and diagrams you are reffering to, and I just cry at the blatant misunderstanding by whoever wrote them. It is being looked at, a new guide is in the works (I personally think they should let me and Pix write the damn thing). The site is due for a refresh very shortly too, as there are a few other howlers.

As for honouring, I am sure that something could possibly be worked out (especially given your dates of flights). This thread is being monitored so watch this space.

Thanks,
Richard

[RichardMannion]

Update for you - discussions are still going on about this as it would appear that some changes have been made and some people are not too clear on the exact implications of the changes. Mail has been going back and forth, and a proper definitive answer should be ready soon.

It has got very complicated, but like I say in the opening note to the FAQ post - it is partly down to VS being generous on the qualification period - and not been the strict 12 month period that some airlines utilise.

Sorry for the delay,
Richard

P.S - I am updating the Tier Point Guide, so please ignore the text that is listed via the FAQ, there are some changes that are quite key. Hopefully that should answer everyone's questions then, especially if I do soem diagrams too.

Thanks again Richard, I've been off line since midday so just returned to find your two updates. Good to see that it seems like action is being taken to provide all round clarity!

[ChuckC]

Vegascrazy,
Very appreciative of you having spotted the inconsistency between VS' official version and the V-Flyer version. Nice going, James.[y]

Regards.

Chuck-

[RichardMannion]

Hi Guys,

Sorry for the delay, the issue has been discussed by me and the resident tier poitn expert in Premier, and we are both are at a loss - it has been passed up to the team that are responsible for this element and its been with them for just over a week now. It has been chased today, and if there is no reponse by tomorrow then the next level of escalation will be engaged. It is a bit of a poor showing really, so I apologise in advance.

Thanks,
Richard

Thanks Richard. Seems odd that the only person making an effort to correct these blatant errors is someone who doesn't actually work for VA. Anyway, fingers crossed they'll get wise to their error. I just wonder if they realise that FC members who were going by the published, official TP information could actually have a valid claim to move up a Tier!

[Decker]

Ultimately the T&C are the ultimate reference - 2.14 To reach Silver status you must earn 15 tier points in a 12 month period.

Anything else on any site always gives way to the T&C. And the T&C has the ultimate get out

1.6 These Consumer Terms may be varied only by VAA and amendments to these Terms & Conditions may be made on our website from time to time. Please ensure that you refer to the most up-to-date edition of the Consumer Terms when seeking to earn miles or take rewards.

So for now it's let's wait and see what they come up with.

Good point Decker, must admit though, I've never trawled through the T's & C's! My view is that I'm like any other punter, ie. we go by the clear information that Virgin promotes conspicuously on a dedicated Tier Point web page of its web site! At the end of the day this is where Virgin encourages people to understand how the TP system works. For them to turn round and say - bye the way that was all wrong, you should have checked para x.xx of the T&C's would be pretty poor show. As you say, lets wait & see what they end up doing to correct this error.

Just wondering Richard if there's any news on this from the web team? Even after all the recent changes on the site they're still promoting to everyone on Red you need a total of 15 tier points within a 13 month period (e.g. 01 Jan 2005 to 31 Jan 2006) to move up from Red to Silver

Maybe they've decided to leave it as 13 months meaning that I'll hit silver this autumn

[RichardMannion]

Hi Vegas,

Should have an update for you after Tuesday on this. Hold tight!

Thanks,
Richard

[RichardMannion]

Hopefully this should answer all outstanding questions, and clarify some mistakes made previously:

Moving up through the tiers:
The new term to get used to is 'Tier Upgrade Cycle'. Basically for the purpose of moving up, Tier Points have a validity of 13 calendar months. So any tier points earned in November 2004, are valid until the end of November 2005 for the purpose of moving up. Note the definition is 'calendar months' and not just 'months'. Another way to view is that they are valid for 12 months, plus up until the end of the end calendar month. So if you earn 5 TP's for a Upper Flight on 15th March 2005, they will be valid until 31st March 2006 (12 months, + until end of the month, in this case March 2006).

Requalification:
Two terms to understand are 'rolling renewal period' and 'fixed renewal period'. These work as described previously. So for the first year of requalification, you are on the rolling renewal period; subsequent years of renewal are done via the 'fixed renewal period'. So if you hit 40 TP on 12th July 2005, you have from 13th July 2005 until the end of July 2006 to earn another 30 TP. Providing that you do earn 30TP and requalify for another year, you will then move into 'fixed renewal period' which is a set 13 months, in this case from 1st August 2006 until 31st August 2007.

For paid members of the site, I will be uploading a brand new diagram that I have created that explains all this visually very shortly to the Clubhouse. VS will have this diagram too as they utilised my draft version to understand in their own heads how TP's work.

Thanks,
Richard