Virgin Economy - needs improvement

Originally posted by karnsculpture
Everyone has an opinion and I think people naturally complain more than praise, so it was a good sign that people were positive about Virgin.

Statistically if you had a good experience you tell 3 people and if you have a bad experience you tell 7 people. So you can see where all the negativity comes from.

I forget what study that was from, but I remember reading it in a business magazine a few months ago.

I don't have a lot of complaints about VS Y class. Keep in mind that I work for Comair, so after spending any time on a cramped CRJ, a VS 744 or 34X feels wonderful. Granted the seat pitch could do with being increased a little, but they are doing that.

My only real complaint is the IFE box under the seat. If you're 6' tall like I am, it's horrible when you get stuck with that. Surely they could make them smaller and relocate them. I completely understand it takes a lot of electronics to make V|Port run, but those boxes are terrible.

Last time I flew, I used the v-flyer seat ratings to help pic the seat. Seeing the note about the IFE box on the right side of the aircraft, I booked seats on the left. Got onboard and BAM... IFE box under the seat [:?]

BA managed to get 10 abreast seating on our 777 LGW-ANU-LGW in ecconomy yet Delta had 9 abreast on our MAN-ATL-MAN .
I think that all airlines should re-think where they put the IFE boxes. On the afore mentioned ANU flight, I had 10 abreast seating, 31" legroom and an IFE box under the seat in front to stop me stretching my legs. Short of having a crate of chickens on my knee, I might as well have been sat in the hold with the rest of the cargo.
I haven`t flown the Atlantic in ecconomy since as I think it is a health hazard for anyone over 5`6".
I do think the PE/WTP product is a step in the right direction. SFO-LHR in WTP was the best nights sleep I have ever had on an aircraft.
I even missed breakfast!

The best sleep I ever got inflight was last July. VS002 EWR-LHR in PE 70A, and it was my first trip in PE. I had worked my graveshift that morning from 0430-0830, so I was mighty tired by the time our trip came around.

We pushed about 30 minutes late. I remember takeoff and initial climb because I was talking to the rather attractive flight attendant infront of me about VS flight benefits, comparing them to mine from DL. I didn't even turn on V|Port. The next thing I remember was the FA with her hand on my arm saying, "Sir, sorry to wake you, but you missed dinner and we're about an hour out, do you want some breakfast?"

I think it was my dad next to me that put her up to waking me up.

She was a real sweetheart [^]

Porsche- I completly agree with your post- Y is the forgotten class at VS. Whilst it doesn't make any profit for the airline- it must be noted that Y plays an intergal part of any airliner in introducing people to travel...not everyone can afford UCS prices- but if you introduce a good Y product this will mean people will return to the airline and could even end up flying UCS.

VS, in my experience, is rather hit and miss when it comes to Y...I personally believe that Y does need to be improved greatly- VS offers premium products which challenge the likes of SQ but the Y product clearly does not.

Its good to see that change is on the way- but I seem to recall reading on this site along time ago that change was on the way and still nothing has happened.

Whilst it doesn't make any profit for the airline

I think Y does make profit for the airline, in fact after 9/11 it was the Y cabin only making money thats why I remember the flights
so overbooked in Y and PE and J full of upgrades!!

They have been wanting to invest in Y for ages but its been a case of so many hurdles such as war/sars/fuel.

I think VS Y in pretty good, I have flown with a number of airlines across the atlantic and am amazed at how people are impressed.

At the end of the day I cant think of many carriers who please customers over 6ft1!!

It makes me laugh when people say I am 6ft2 and the leg room was terrible, well yes it is on most carriers if your that tall!!

People make out that VS Y is the worst in the world but I think its pretty good compared to airlines in North America and Europe.

I am always proud to work in Economy, we have great IFE, generally great food and now better seats.

hmm I think whilst VS have reasonable Y and W products they dont lead in the way they did 10 or so years ago with personal IFE screens etc

I look forward to improvements in Y and W as J shows VS can lead the game UCS is a great product that is better than most airlines J products.

I also hope VS offer more differentiation between Y & W as a bigger seat isnt enough to cut it when other airlines are offering better meals etc..

Which airlines offer a better meal in there PE equivalent??

BA WTP is same as WT!

[Scrooge]

The big complaint with VS in Y is always the legroom,no matter what the other complaints may be,legroom is always mentioned,now that there are charter airlines starting to offer more room than VS in Y it's about time for VS to open up a little,just take it to 34" the same as US,at least it would give you a little wiggle room.

Originally posted by jetwet1
The big complaint with VS in Y is always the legroom,no matter what the other complaints may be,legroom is always mentioned,now that there are charter airlines starting to offer more room than VS in Y it's about time for VS to open up a little,just take it to 34" the same as US,at least it would give you a little wiggle room.

Damn straight. I know this has already been sob-storied to death, but I am also 6'2" and my problem with VS is that my knees literally grind against the seat in front of me, and when the person in front reclines, forget about it!

I think I'm going to be travelling on BA this year (in WT) so I'll try to remember to do a comparison report to see how my knees feel this time, possibly I'll take some pictures.

Now time to be scientific: The world is getting taller, and I'm being perfectly serious when I say that. Races that were notorious for being short are slowly creeping up to having an average height of 6 feet. Airlines really have to start realizing this when it comes to coach.

Originally posted by VS-EWR

Originally posted by jetwet1
The big complaint with VS in Y is always the legroom,no matter what the other complaints may be,legroom is always mentioned,now that there are charter airlines starting to offer more room than VS in Y it's about time for VS to open up a little,just take it to 34" the same as US,at least it would give you a little wiggle room.

Damn straight. I know this has already been sob-storied to death, but I am also 6'2" and my problem with VS is that my knees literally grind against the seat in front of me, and when the person in front reclines, forget about it!

I think I'm going to be travelling on BA this year (in WT) so I'll try to remember to do a comparison report to see how my knees feel this time, possibly I'll take some pictures.

Now time to be scientific: The world is getting taller, and I'm being perfectly serious when I say that. Races that were notorious for being short are slowly creeping up to having an average height of 6 feet. Airlines really have to start realizing this when it comes to coach.

Yes Nick, sort of done to death AND some, but you can't hide from the truth. Mr cat is 6' 1" and has the same issues if we fly Y - knees grinding on seat in front. I'm much shorter - 5' 2" - but even I find it uncomfortable!

Originally posted by declansmith
People make out that VS Y is the worst in the world but I think its pretty good compared to airlines in North America and Europe.

Declan has a point. Has anyone here ever flown Lufthansa Y long-haul?

It's like something from the 70's: no IFE - except a movie projected onto a postage stamp at the front of the cabin, no meal choice - other than "take it or leave it", but with legroom wound down to a crippling 30-31".

If VS could give away a couple more inches of legroom, and put laptop power in Y, they would be onto a winnner.

Cheers,
Mike

No good reviews on Airlines Equality??- must be a different website to that which I read as I have read plenty on there. Maybe not about VS economy but they are there.

Originally posted by Jonathan
I also hope VS offer more differentiation between Y & W as a bigger seat isnt enough to cut it

You have to remember the overall product that make W what it is.... yes its not just the bigger seat but a more flexable ticket,Dedicated check in, priority boarding, dedicated cabin crew (and ratio) boarding drinks, newspapers and of course more FF miles than Y.

People forget the product is only Economy and not Business Wanabe. And Travel agents dont help by selling it as business class when clearly the booking class on many airlines would still be coach.

I am 6"2 and i appreciate the comments on Y seats but the problem comes, what extent are you prepared to pay for legroom... first Choice get it back through stealth charges in the bookings. and I know that we get complaints from people being asked to pay £75 for exit seats.... so why will they pay more for more leg room? you would probably be required to remove 2 rows to give just 1" of legroom thats 16 seats of revenue to split between every other seat. The new A346 config does a good job...re design the seat and put a few more W seats to help pay for it.

Well its a start I think we would all agree

Ok just posted this on the Air Quality - Lets see if it gets posted


" Return Virgin Upper class to Barbados - Feb 2006

I recently took a holiday to Barbados with my family and had a choic of flying with BA club or Virgin Upper class. We decided to try Virin for a change and I have to say what an excellent product they offer. Everything in the club house in Gatwick is fantastic with a superb breakfast served prior to boarding. One thing Virgin must sort out is their boarding procedure. UC dont have a seperate boarding area so its a little confusing but once on the aircraft it is fantastic. Seats are amongst the best I have come across ( apart from SIS First) and the service was relaxed and the way one one expect flying business class. Food was also very good with an excellent selection of fine wines. IFE was the brilliant V-Port system which I think is as good as SIAs Krisworld. One very annoying thing is that we had great seats on the upper deck but this is also shared with PE passangers and when getting off the aircraft its a bit of a free for all. Overall Virgin UC is a far better product I believe than Ba Club , better seat , IFE etc. Out of 10 I would give Virgin UC 9. Only their boarding facilities needs to be changed to give them a 10/10. "

keith

Surveys you read were right - we had similar stats drummed into us 10 years ago @ uni (I did marketing with management) re: customer satisfaction. Cant remember exact numbers, but the general conclusion was that you were less likely to tell anyone about a good experience, but likely to tell as many people as possible about a bad experience.

Ive actually stopped reading that website because I find many of the "complaints" go completely over-the-top. Ive submitted a couple of good reviews myself of lufthansa, ANZ, germanwings and ryanair (not to mention a couple of indifferent ryanair ones) - one of two certainly didnt get "published", i simply presumed they would be but took the possibly nieve view that they had been overlooked to avoid duplication with similar articles (which there was). If they werent, then that suggests the site is being run/edited with an agenda. A good review of Ryanair never appeared, yet having a quick look I notice my review of Germanwings did *LOL*

The core problem is that peoples perceptions of a product is not valid grounds for a complaint. Perceptions are often the end result of a chinese-whispers style method of information getting to some.
I dont personally know anyone who has flown VS before, so all the reviews, knowledge etc I had of VS before coming across v-flyer was at best 3rd-hand knowledge about the supposed superior service etc etc. If I had simply booked & turned up - id probably have been disappointed, instead though I have a range of views & can make my own balanced opinions. At end of the day its still a flight in economy, and whilst Im expecting a better service on board than I would from some airlines, and a better IFE - Im indifferent about legroom (and am needing to login & change my seats, since discovering I have randomly picked an IFE-box seat... yet I cant get 6 numbers for £50 eh?).
Of course, back to the old failsafe... everyones opinion is different! Ive actually had differing recomendations in here on the best-seats for my outward Y flight in June... with pros/cons from different people for the same seat.
At the end of the day, I've had differing flights with the same carrier, clearly the more frequent you fly the more informed your opinion will come about all aspects of one flight vs another. Until I fly VS myself, i wont honestly know which seat is best - in my opinion. I wont even be able to take 2 & compare... im coming back PE .... so unless VS wanna upgrade my 1st flight............

[Nottingham Nick]

That is an excellent summing up, Willie.

Even on V-Flyer, there are a lot of opinions expressed that are based on what people have heard, or read on other websites. These must be taken with a pinch of salt.

For me, the best opinions (good or bad) are those first hand accounts in the trip reports.

Nick

Originally posted by milehigh
You have to remember the overall product that make W what it is.... yes its not just the bigger seat but a more flexable ticket,Dedicated check in, priority boarding, dedicated cabin crew (and ratio) boarding drinks, newspapers and of course more FF miles than Y.

People forget the product is only Economy and not Business Wanabe. And Travel agents dont help by selling it as business class when clearly the booking class on many airlines would still be coach.

I am 6"2 and i appreciate the comments on Y seats but the problem comes, what extent are you prepared to pay for legroom... first Choice get it back through stealth charges in the bookings. and I know that we get complaints from people being asked to pay £75 for exit seats.... so why will they pay more for more leg room? you would probably be required to remove 2 rows to give just 1" of legroom thats 16 seats of revenue to split between every other seat. The new A346 config does a good job...re design the seat and put a few more W seats to help pay for it.

Well its a start I think we would all agree

But it's not fair for people who only have enough money to spend on economy tickets to be forced to pay more for an upgrade or an exit seat in order to fit in the seat properly. And this isn't the same argument with obesity either, because you really cannot help it if your genes make it so that your are tall.

[Scrooge]

Willie,thank you for that [y][oo]

As both you and milehigh have said,it comes down to what you pay for the ticket,yes the airlines have to make money and they don't do it in Y,look how much the price's for a Y ticket have moved over the last 10-15 years,the look at what a J now costs,you'll see where the money is made,but the problem comes when VS and every other airline for that matter put up stuff like this,people perceptions are just going to be way off,this is great in the short term because it fill's seats,but long term it's not so good.

Ok,now on to my soap box

Take out two rows on a 744,16 pax (using milehighs number) would save you 3200lbs (pax plus baggage) would mean an extra 3200lbs of cargo you can carry,it's down to your cargo op to sell that space and VS cargo is top notch at doing this,so net,you'll make more money by taking out the seat rows and have happier pax,though of course people being people they will find something to complain about.

The VS product was so far ahead of every other airline,well at least when the 744's came into the fleet that the other airlines had to play catch up,now some of them have,others for financial reason's cannot,but they will in the end,where can VS go with it's Y product to improve it more?

It's all well and good to say make Y better,other than offering more legroom what can be done,the IFE even on older aircraft is pretty good,at least up there with most airlines,the food is pretty decent,the FA's are as good as any,what do you want for your cheap fares?


So I guess what im trying to say is that VS and it's marketing companies are doing a bad job of selling their Y product,they make new pax to VS think that they are going to get something amazing,I seem to remember seeing an ad for them saying something along the lines of our Y is like sitting in J...WTF..no it isn't,if you spend anytime on here you'll know it isn't,but to your firsttime flyer on VS they are going to have an idea in their heads which,no matter how good the service,IFE and food the airline cannot bring to reality,so they are going to get off the flight un-happy.

Im all for VS promoting their Y service as good,which it is,but dont try and make it look like a J or even W product becuase it's not and all that happens is you end up with negative TR's on skytrax etc.




Sorry,I had to get that off my chest [:I] come back in a couple of months and i'll be doing it again [:w]....

Anyways,why don't we have some fun,I know there are some very creative people on here,how about coming up with a VS Y campaign? See what we can do,just keep it honest.

Hey Jetwet... I based my numbers on a 340 on a 744 youd lose another 4 seats as its 10 abreast config.

the question Of Cargo is a interesting one... especially as we have to tank fuel using fuel due to bunsfield oil rationing at LHR. so cargo to recoup isnot always an option.

But I think we should have a discussion on what the new campaign for Y should be?

see here http://www.v-flyer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11939

Oh dear what have I started - Ive created a monster

Not a monster at all. It's just the sort of well thought debate that the forum is for

Cheers Jer.
I must admit I really enjoy this V-Forum- It has to be one of the best on the web - Keith

[Scrooge]

Originally posted by porsche911
Oh dear what have I started - Ive created a monster

You calling me a monster...[?]....sweet and yes your right,it is one of the best forums on the net [y]

I'm just recovering from yesterdays VS7 in Economy. I would agree with everybodys' comments about the seats, they are SO uncomfortable. They are poorly cushioned and hurt my lower bits.

I'm getting better at avoiding the dreaded IFE box, but I'm still incredulous that anybody could have thought that occupying half the limited amount of space for a passengers feet with a metal box with sharp corners was a good idea. Anyway, the v.port packed up 2/3 of the way into the flight yesterday and only rebooted into a kind of "limp home" mode, with only 20 films available, not on demand but starting together, no TV, but the games & skymap were available.

The food needs a serious workover, Please no more of that brown gloop pretending to be a profiterole [:$] the best way to get good grub in Y with VS at the moment seems to be by flying to Tokyo and grabbing the Japanese option.

You may wonder why I fly at all with VS in Y. Well the reason for Y is a mean employer who insists on cheapest tix. The reason I choose VS (I do get to choose who I fly with, within limits) Is that Flying Club beats the socks off BA exec club for folk who use cheap economy tickets. Also VS has better staff most of the time, well certainly the LHR ground staff and the cabin crew anyway.

The news that VS is addressing some of this, and hopefully pretty soon, cheers me up (& boy do I need cheering up after yesterdays flight):D

The impression I'm getting from this thread is that my experience in Y is going to be a nightmare, no matter what I have been told by people I know. I hope it is not.

In what way are the images on the Virgin Atlantic site a misrepresentation of what you get in Y? It looks as cramped as any other Y class carrier.

All I expect from Y is for me to get from A to B safely and in comfort, with decent entertainment options and a basic meal on long haul. If I want luxury I will pay extra. Most Y customers need a good price and are perfectly aware that the compromise is space. I am tall and I don't mind having the seat in front hitting my knees if the person pushes their seat back. The material is soft and padded - what's not to like? I feel quite cosy in a Y seat and find it hard to stay awake!

TTFN

Paul