Don't VS want my money??

Probably worth another go, I suppose. See if a 'manager' or suchlike can put a different angle on it. I have to say, it's starting to feel a bit like too much hard work when I can pick up the 'half-price' BA flight online right now. Could this be the end of a beautiful friendship?

If any airline believes they can sell enough seats at a higher fare on a particular flight to fill the cabin then why would they sell more discounted fares?

March/ April 2007 is going to be a huge peak in demand for seats (especially J/F class seats) due to the Cricket World Cup. Its not abnormal for any airline to either restrict subclasses or simply not to issue cheaper fares for times like this.

With far fewer premium class (whether J or Fcl) seats than BA on the route it makes perfect sense to protect the revenue from these seats, certainly if VS Believes they can fill them with J and Dcl fare paying pax later in the year.

The alternative is that the Z class fares have simply not been finalised. Revenue Management and pricing may simply be waiting to see what demand appears.

Of course its frustrating being a passenger trying to get hold of the cheaper fares, but as with any airline there's no guarantee they'll always be available.

Today I went to buy a second pair of trousers for an off the peg suit I bought at M&S in January. The Suit originally cost me £180 in the sale. Today it would have cost me £380 and the trousers alone were £140. I had the choice of paying twice as much, buying another suit or waiting till the sales and risking not getting them.

[Scrooge]

Ben,thats a good way of putting it,exept that we are talking about thousands of pounds not a hundred.

I went through the same thing a while back and in the end said forget this mess and booked with BA,flight wasn't bad,got op up'd to club so have no complaints.

Ben is right about an airline trying to maximise revenue,however there comes a point where even the biggest VS lover here is going to say no way to that type of price difference.

Also of course with BA redoing their cabins and IFE over the next two years it will make the choice easier.

V-Ben, please understand, I have no problem with any business, airline or otherwise, wanting to maximise its profits. I've been trying, with very little success, to do the same in my business for many years...

Thing is, I've always been a Z class tart. There, I've said it. And for our annual BGI jaunt I have, for the last 6 years, managed to book Z, or Z and D, mainly by using ExpertFlyer (and others) and by booking well in advance.

If there were no Z fares available, I'd put it down to VS's burgeoning business and the growing appeal of the UC product, fair game, well done VS. I could even put it down to the cricket world cup, but I'm purposely shifting our hols from April to May to avoid that. Problem is, there are Z fares showing and they won't let me have them, the swine. And then BA have to come in at less than half the price! It's only that I love flying UCS so very much that I find it so darned frustrating. A lesser man would have booked BA weeks ago...

Oh, and Ben, a work of advice: next time you buy a suit, get two pairs of trousers...

Problem is, there are Z fares showing and they won't let me have them, the swine.

Seats yes, Fares no. This is actually a slightly more heartening situation as once the fares are released (if they are) then the seats are currently available.

Oh, and Ben, a word of advice: next time you buy a suit, get two pairs of trousers...

Hey, my mother's impressed enough that I've swapped Selfridges for M&S!!!!

Personally I would put up with BA for half the price. I find it hard to believe that Branson would allow any member of staff to recommend BA on the phone at any time ever. Its surely gross misconduct... So I hope they don't 'review the call for training purposes'

[Scrooge]

Are you calling me a lesser man [:0]

Btw,yes I would of booked BA week's ago,to me the vacation is more important than the flight [:0][:0],over the last few years I have flown a number of airlines from LAX/LAS to London,I always have given VS the first shot at my money,but if the fares are out of line I book on a different airline.

Ok,last couple of points...

Isn't it interesting that when VS started out they challenged BA on price,now it's the other way around.

Do we think that flights out of LGW/MAN could handle more than 14 seats in UC,meaning there would be a demand for them.

Isn't it interesting that when VS started out they challenged BA on price,now it's the other way around.

As the network and frequency builds this is more and more likely... as BA seek to hold onto market share... though to be honest once enough of the Club World is refitted we might see this swinging to the other direction.

Do we think that flights out of LGW/MAN could handle more than 14 seats in UC,meaning there would be a demand for them.

Absolutely, but the problem is where to put them. Front 1/2 of the bubble? The B zone? Both have been looked at and ultimately at the moment, year round and over the total LGW Network the figures don't add up. As destinations increase it may be that another config, or even aircraft type could operate to some places like MRU or BGI with more Upper (Certainly an airbus would be much easier to configure differently than the 747).

And as for more UC on LGW flights, I like the sound of putting suites in the front half of 'the bubble'. What's that? 10 more suites? 24 total in J? Not too much to ask...?

Originally posted by mdvipond

[i]
And as for more UC on LGW flights, I like the sound of putting suites in the front half of 'the bubble'. What's that? 10 more suites? 24 total in J? Not too much to ask...?

I fear the 20PE seats currently there have a higher profit margin that 10 UCS. So you'd have to find somewhere to put them.

Phil

Sorry about this, my last post got cut a little short due to 'technical difficulties' (don't ask...). In brief, what I was also trying to say is:

mysteryflyer - the lady at VS reservations said book BA "if you must". In her defence, not a recommendation to fly with the competition as such.

jetwet1 - a lesser man? No way, just one who doesn't suffer from my terrible, debilitating UCS addiction...

Very interesting thread, dear to my heart, how to get into J as cheap as poss!:D
I've been half thinking about going to Phoenix in Nov/Dec for hol, sorry a seminar;) Checked VS to LAS (would mean a nice drive through the desert) and came out at over £3k ouch! in UC or £1100 in PE! BA had PHX direct in CW for £1300 (OK probly all sold now). Now in my book CW aint as quite as good as UC but is a whole lot better than PE! Lounge, flat beds, proper service and food and drinks. On a plane you partly pay for the amount of "real estate" or square feet your seat takes up. Now VS' superb UCS takes up more than BA's pretty good NCW, but the bar, IFBT etc also takes up space. On many planes BA has quite a few more J seats than VS, plus the hallowed "F" [oo] paradise. I'll wager that BA still makes a fair profit from it's deep discounted J fares.
Should VS a) Do nothing; b) Put in more UCS suites and discount these; c) Seriously improve PE as a "mini-biz" class ( "Premium" in quality rather than price)?
In the old days BA would rarely openly discount J and planes would fly with rows of empty CW seats while pax were squeezed into Cattle Class. Now it seems they've joined the competition (apart from VS). There's also MaxJet operating to JFK and IAD and soon MIA and rumoured to be considering LAX or SFO!

Originally posted by mdvipond
mysteryflyer - the lady at VS reservations said book BA "if you must". In her defence, not a recommendation to fly with the competition as such.

Ben makes a point - with so few J seats, and a major event planned around the same time, I guess VS are "hedging" to try and see if anyone will book at the higher price, and there is probably a "Seasonality" block on the appropriate Z fare in order to make it non-saleable for that period.

The Zs that are there are probably for the VH block, as suggested.

With a bigger cabin, I guess that means BA can sell discounted seats now, and still have enough space to juggle later to make the revenue equations work. Still, VS' loss is BA's gain... CW ain't all that bad, and at least the amenity kit is still okay (sorry, couldn't resist a poke in the eye for that).

Cheers,
Mike

PE has the highest profit margin AFAIK, but UC has a higher one than Y I would expect, so how about taking up space in Y?

VS.

Originally posted by VS045
PE has the highest profit margin AFAIK, but UC has a higher one than Y I would expect, so how about taking up space in Y?

The oft quoted value of Premium is purely on a 'per square meter' basis. In reality for VS as a whole, Upper out of LHR is the real money earner (as Jcl is pretty much for every LHR Carrier).

On the B&S routes there's a fine balance between making sure you get the 'bread and butter' Ycl passengers (especially when competing with charters on most routes) and filling the high yield W and Jcl seats.

On top if this the 747-400 does have configuration limits. You can't just put whatever number of Jcl suites you decide... the cabin has to reflect the different 'Zones' or fit with Galley/Toilet constraints.

[Scrooge]

Here is the problem VS will face in the near future,as other airlines upgrade their J product the suite is not going to be enough to justify the price difference between the competing products,now let's take BA for example,they are upgrading their CW product with new seats (again) AVOD IFE,they have a lounge at LGW,a FF program that isn't bad,good food in CW (at least everytime I have flown in CW) and lower prices.

Now how is VS going to counter this,by charging more becuasse they only have 14 seats? Of course at some point Rev mismanagment is going to open their eyes and see that they are flying with 12 empty seats because everyone is now flying BA etc.

Of course this is extreme,but it does point to a situation that could happen.This situation applies to the UC cabin only,but it should also be pointed out that as other airlines are making their products better VS seems to be cheapening UC while charging more.

Now im sitting here scratching my head wondering about LHR flight's or more to the point,how is VS7/8 priced compared to say Air New Zealand,who also have the suite now [?]

[mcmbenjamin]

Originally posted by jetwet1

Now im sitting here scratching my head wondering about LHR flight's or more to the point,how is VS7/8 priced compared to say Air New Zealand,who also have the suite now [?]

That a good point. What's really the difference between LAX-LHR on NZ/VS (beside the IFBT (if you get one), Revivals and the bar? Departure lounge is the same....

Also of course with BA redoing their cabins and IFE over the next two years it will make the choice easier.

I'm relieved to see I'm not the only one who has such thoughts - I was beginning to feel like a leper [:#]

{mcuth: edited to correct the quotation tags around quoted message}

Like most people on here I've been a loyal Virgin customer for a number of years. However, having just looked at prices for a weekend in Boston this September, BA come out at £177 cheaper in economy with better flight times than VA !

With figures like that, I may well have to return "The Dark Side" [8D]

Now im sitting here scratching my head wondering about LHR flight's or more to the point,how is VS7/8 priced compared to say Air New Zealand,who also have the suite now [?]

That's a good question, and it got me thinking since I'm going on vacation to California in October via LAX, my dates are out on the 4th and back on the 18th, here are the prices for 2 in Z:

BA £4,921.20
ANZ £4,463.40
VS £4,923.20

Strange that BA and VS are almost identical, no suggestion of a cartel there , but with ANZ £500 cheaper it's worthy of thought. Only things is fewer miles and tier points.

Originally posted by slinky09
ANZ £4,463.40
VS £4,923.20

Strange that BA and VS are almost identical, no suggestion of a cartel there , but with ANZ £500 cheaper it's worthy of thought. Only things is fewer miles and tier points.

Interesting ANZ came out that expensive. I've seen Zs to LAX on ANZ for £2,100-ish before now, and a Z to AKL for £2,900.

Of course, the food and wine on ANZ are great. The only things different in terms of aircraft experience are no IFBT and no bar, but there is a help-yourself drinks and snacks area set up, which I guess isn't that much different to a bar. The ANZ Business cabin lavs are much more swish than the ones on VS!

Of course, ex-London, the only downer with ANZ is that you end up in the dreary United lounge.

Cheers,
Mike

Originally posted by jetwet1
Here is the problem VS will face in the near future,as other airlines upgrade their J product the suite is not going to be enough to justify the price difference between the competing products,now let's take BA for example,they are upgrading their CW product with new seats (again) AVOD IFE,they have a lounge at LGW,a FF program that isn't bad,good food in CW (at least everytime I have flown in CW) and lower prices.

Totally agree, and with the service changes going on I've felt for a while that the Suite on it's own will not carry UC for much longer. Despite the money spent on things like the LHR Clubhouse etc, the 'in-the-air' experience has been neglected and downgraded in comparison to BA ( I could make a list but the 'Scrooge Kit' is the latest in a long line of unpopular changes )

Decker's recent trip report in BA Club suggests that when the seat and IFE update are performed BA will be in a strong position as they seem to get the basics right consistently well.

David.

Decker's recent trip report in BA Club suggests that when the seat and IFE update are performed BA will be in a strong position as they seem to get the basics right consistently well.

We switched to BA last year after 6 years almost exclusively on VS. The issue wasn't down to price at the time but the current BA deals would have caught my attention. I have to say I miss the suite but I don't miss the food, wine, penny pinching or some staff memberÕs attitude. After a year with the dark side I can confirm we haven't had one bad flight. We earn substantially more rewards on BA and probably the biggest benefit that I hadn't given much thought to is the route network, we had just about been everywhere VS served, some quite a few times.
We have an UC flight coming up that we are all really looking forward to, it will be a good comparison after a year on BA.

Below is how they match up in our experience in J or F, I have included BA first as most of our travel in F has been on reward tickets that are about the same miles cost as UC rewards when using the BA AMEX 241 Voucher).

Check-in: BA, particularly Zone R at LHR T1 (can't comment about limo or drive through because I have never purchased a qualifying ticket)

Lounge: VS,( this was the old LHR lounge, not had the pleasure of the new one yet), on a F ticket the CR at LHR T4 is very good, with an Au card the first lounges are better than the terraces but can be quite full, much better quality wine and champagne than CHs.

Seat: VS in J, BA in F.

Service: BA

Sleeper service/GNF: Both crap but at least on BA you can book the early flight to avoid it.

Amenity Kit: BA in F, used to be VS in J but I don't think the envelope is going to cut it.


Food: BA

Arrivals: Equal, encountered bad attitude at both.

FFP: BA, loads of earning ops from Tesco and a companion voucher that really is useable.

I think the whole J class VS vs BA thing still gives VS a very distinct advantage when flying from LHR (Clubhouse, IFBT, V-Port, bar). But when you compare flights out of LGW, there's very little, if anything, in it - although I'm not sure what the BA lounge is like there. Then consider paying twice as much for VS...? Hmm, think I'm talking myself into a BA flight here.

[Scrooge]

Ok,so what we have here is two threads running at the same time,this one and this one that seem to be pointing to something.

We have loyal VS pax who have said enough and are now turning to BA etc for their flight's,kind of the way BA pax did in the mid to late 80's.

For VS to lose a pax like me it's no big deal,I fly once or twice a year trans Atlantic,for VS to lose pax like Blackcat or Decker then that show's a very worrying trend.

When it comes down to it,yes VS has to make money,but at what costs [?]