Removal of pre booked seats

I have looked in the FAQ's and can't find anything on this so here goes.

I have booked VS009 on 28/7 (LHR - JFK) using 200k Continental miles (4 of us going).

I normally fly Virgin 3 times per year to MCO, and normally book 11 months in advance. Flying with a 10 year old I want to 'get all my ducks in a row' and book seats asap.

Booked this trip in April and then booked seats on-line straight away (also like to get the 2 seat rows on the side).

Today I looked at the booking and we have been moved all over the plane - and I do mean all over - ranging from 57C to 43A !

Speaking to the customer services in India, I then went up the line and then spoke, eventually to a senior person in London.

I know the seats aren't guaranteed, but what is the point of having the on-line facility if they change it at will. The excuse was that there had been a schedule change. When I clarified that there had not been a 'schedule change' they said it was an aircraft change. I did point out that the configuration appeared to be identical to the previous one. Why should I have problems for their poor software?

I try to avoid any potential issue at the airport and I have seen families split up before on flights and I want to avoid that at all costs.

All I could get from them was that 'don't worry we will will mark the booking to show you are a family'. This did not fill me with confidence as the original booking had already been cross-referenced (somehow Continental did 4 separate booing refs)

I suggested that they knock off 4 people from the seats and put us in them as they didn't have any issue with that for us. That they couldn't do 'as I was moved by computer'.

I know it may be a minor thing (and those without kids will feel it is completely unimportant), but you try to sort everything out in good time and you want to go on holiday 'as a family'. I did point out that putting a 10 year old on a seat by themselves will contravene CAA regs.

Hopefully this will all be a 'non-issue' but now it is up to the vaguaries of the check-in staff.

Got that off my chest !

KeithS

PS I did ask if I could use some Virgin miles to upgrade us all to PE, but they 'couldn't touch it as it was a Continental booking'

I've never noticed this behaviour in my years of using the on line pre-assignment. I've had (a) the wrong aeroplane configuration presented and (b) been told at the check in that I've been moved due to operational reasons but I've never seen my on-line assignments change. I need to check...

Paul

I have never had anything but the seat I originally selected, although I do realise this is not guaranteed. If you are a party though, I would have thought that they could sort it out to get you together. Hopefully a VS staffer will be along in a minute to shed some light on this.

Before I took to the sky I used to work at check-in and the only reason I can think of at this time... Is CO always used to only have 25% of the ASA map. so when a aircraft change occurs due to schedules maybe not your flight but another service that your aircrafy operates before or after?

And as you say the 10 year old cant be on his/her own, Must be no further than 1 row or 1 cross aisle form the parent/gaurdian.

I personally think that many people seem to forget that seat requests are only REQUESTS and that due to operational reasons can change. I would be happy to get rid of it completely and only allow it by OLCI 24 hrs prior when checking in.... (or get to the airport early) but in this situation I know that LHR groundstaff are the best..after all they are the only station not outsourced!! explains a few things really!

I would be happy to get rid of it completely and only allow it by OLCI 24 hrs prior when checking in.... (or get to the airport early) but in this situation I know that LHR groundstaff are the best..after all they are the only station not outsourced!! explains a few things really!

That does not good service make, in any class. I completely understand if an aircraft type is changed, however if that doesn't happen the seats rarely do so why not offer this to paying customers. Heck if I can book a seat in a theatre or cinema twelve months in advance why not on a plane for a ticket costing hugely more!

PS, is LGW outsourced?

Originally posted by milehigh
I know that LHR groundstaff are the best..after all they are the only station not outsourced!! explains a few things really!

I have to say, I think that is a highly debatable suggestion. Indeed, looking at it from the customer's point of view, I have had some really great groundstaff at out-stations (CPT being an exception).

I can see immediately why this happened.

CO did four seperatate bookings. That is the reason you have been moved. As fas as the 'software' is concerned this maks you four seperate people travelling individually. It has no way of knowing you are a family wanting to sit together.

Pre flight editing proabably wanted to make sure other people were able to sit together so it looked for people travelling alone to move them to more appropriate seating in terms of getting the best use out of the seat map.

CO can link your bookings together if it tries to move people again, it will show that you are a party of four.

VS really cannot touch CO bookings for things like mileage upgrades either. And don't be suprised if you get to check in and they ask you for your paper tickets - CO are notorious for messing up e-ticket bookings and booking them as paper tickets with the passenger none wiser.

Originally posted by Lipstick
I can see immediately why this happened.

CO did four seperatate bookings. That is the reason you have been moved. As fas as the 'software' is concerned this maks you four seperate people travelling individually. It has no way of knowing you are a family wanting to sit together.

In normal circumstances I would agree.

However, I spoke with Virgin a few weeks ago (concerning the return flight) and asked them to link the 4 bookings. This was done and all the people yesterday at Virgin confirmed this.

Not sure I could have done any more.

KeithS

Originally posted by slinky09
[That does not good service make, in any class. I completely understand if an aircraft type is changed, however if that doesn't happen the seats rarely do so why not offer this to paying customers. Heck if I can book a seat in a theatre or cinema twelve months in advance why not on a plane for a ticket costing hugely more!

PS, is LGW outsourced?

I should perhaps clarify by what I meant.... Yes Pre booked seats are great however with aircraft changing anything up tp 1hr before a flight, Its is often a promise broken to the customer when they dont get what they want... Because many dont appreciate that they are only REQUESTS.. the original idea when ASA was introduced was to help book two seats together, or Window side... etc.... not seat 18A/C and (what happens when a A343 becomes a A346?

So it was more my concern that the customer was being let down on a promise.. than the fact the ASA should not happen.

As for Groundstaff being Outsourced... Im sure that many outstations are fantastic,(incidently LHR technically is a outstation as LGW is the Base)

Now that they are getting used to thing a bit more. I was probably speaking from what I see where they have not given the service the customer deserves due to not owning the job or the pride of the airline. Also we get annoyed at their lack of compliance to regulations eg.uniforms and proceedures eg Hand baggage.

but Like anything Im sure that LHR has the odd bad apple to?

I hope that has clarified my earlier post ?

My seat allocations were recently changed by Virgin also, much to my annoyance. OLCI was useless as well.

^^You're absolutely right when you say the idea of assigned seating is to sit people together - you would not believe the amount of people who complain because their little bit of paper says 46AC and they've actually been given 55AC.

Far too many pax seem to think once they have a computer print out with some seats on it it is their god given right to sit in those seats!!!

There should be big clear signs everywhere the pre assigned seating is just a request but unfortunately a lot of travel agents reserve the seats on pax behalf and tell them they are confirmed when it's simply not the case!

Obviously it didn't work in this case although linking bookings together still shows four people travelling individually unless you physically go into the booking which i doubt pre flight editing have much time to do.

Far too many pax seem to think once they have a computer print out with some seats on it it is their god given right to sit in those seats!!!

There should be big clear signs everywhere the pre assigned seating is just a request but unfortunately a lot of travel agents reserve the seats on pax behalf and tell them they are confirmed when it's simply not the case!

Sorry but this speaks of a disdain for customers that really should not be a part of the service ... fine offer prebooked seating and make it clear that operational reasons may mean that things change, but try to keep to that promise? I fly frequently, seat choice is a factor in choosing which airline to fly with, if VS really wants to suggest this is a perk and not a part of the service then I might just go elsewhere.

[preiffer]

I agree slinky [y]

This is 100% about expectation management - and it's NOT the customer's fault if their expectations have not been managed correctly.

I have to say, Lipstick - your posts consistently point towards disdain and even contempt for any of your passengers (CUSTOMERS). Since you claim to be a member of ground staff (although not for VS?); as a passenger myself, I find that disturbing.

Originally posted by slinky09

Far too many pax seem to think once they have a computer print out with some seats on it it is their god given right to sit in those seats!!!

There should be big clear signs everywhere the pre assigned seating is just a request but unfortunately a lot of travel agents reserve the seats on pax behalf and tell them they are confirmed when it's simply not the case!

Sorry but this speaks of a disdain for customers that really should not be a part of the service ... fine offer prebooked seating and make it clear that operational reasons may mean that things change, but try to keep to that promise?

To be fair, I think they do try to keep that promise. I've used telephone and on line seat assignment for the past 8 / 9 years flying VS and have only been disappointed at check in a couple of times.

Paul

Unfortunately guys all your comments clearly speak of people who've no idea what it's like to work in an airport and face the same arguements each day. What i'm saying is if pax are clearly informed - which they're not at the moment - that seats are just a request and are never guaranteed then there wouldn't be so much disappointment and tears at the airport when they find out they haven't got those seats.

I know it's easy for you all to think my customer service is bad because of some of the comments i make, when in fact it's brilliant, but would you rather me lie to you all and say pre-assigned seating works brilliantly and has no problems at all?

As an airline Virgin is still growing and faces new challenges each day which pax, including yourseleves do not realise and there are far more reasons for things like reserved seating changing than you all realise. Like i said before if passengers where all informed about this service not being guaranteed, it would not only ease the problems at airports, but encourage the use of OLCI.

I take all your comments with a large pinch of salt!

[preiffer]

Originally posted by Lipstick
I take all your comments with a large pinch of salt!

In which case, you'll forgive us if we do the same.


I also fear you're missing one key point - it's NOT the passenger's job to know how the airline works internally.
It IS your job to do the best you can for each passenger you deal with. In return for that good service, passengers are typically friendly, well behaved and helpful.


So, you don't *actually* work for VS then? [:?]

[Neil]

Originally posted by preiffer

Originally posted by Lipstick
I take all your comments with a large pinch of salt!

In which case, you'll forgive us if we do the same.


I also fear you're missing one key point - it's NOT the passenger's job to know how the airline works internally.
It IS your job to do the best you can for each passenger you deal with. In return for that good service, passengers are typically friendly, well behaved and helpful.


So, you don't *actually* work for VS then? [:?]

Im with Preiffer on this - what Lipstick and other VS staff have to remember is that us pax are more often then not paying a lot of money to fly and should be given top quality service all the time, and without wanting to sound rude, what the hell does it matter to us what challenges VS staff are having to face internally. As with any business staff face different challenges each day but the customer should never see any of that, they should get a good quality service, which they are paying for. If VS do not make it clear to pax that the seats chosen are never certain then its not the pax fault!.

(woohoo - also my 100th post - yey )

Neil

Originally posted by Attitude23
As with any business staff face different challenges each day but the customer should never see any of that, they should get a good quality service, which they are paying for. If VS do not make it clear to pax that the seats chosen are never certain then its not the pax fault!.

Neil

I'm not being an apologist for poor service - conditions with the company are not the customers' fault and the IMO it's the one area that VS could quickly deliver an improvement in their image and offering compared to other carriers - but I don't see where VS "do not make it clear to pax that the seats chosen are never certain". I can't, of course, offer an opinion on the scripts used by the service centre on the 'phone or what travel agents tell people but from the website..

From the FAQ:

"Q Can I pre-allocate my seat?
A Please note that seat numbers are never guaranteed and are subject to operational changes."

And from several places on the the "Manage Your Booking" page

"Please be aware that your seats may be changed at the airport due to operational reasons."

Nor am I attempting to deminish the OP's complaint, where he was finding his request changed even before operational reasons at the airport.

Paul

[RichardMannion]

LGW does use outsourced staff, services are provided by a company called GroundStar. Unfortuantely they have been less than stars on the last few times I have travelled thru LGW, fortunately though, there are a few true VS employees based at LGW and they deliver the high standards we're used to the and the 'can do' attitude that we've come to know Virgin for.

I don't work for an airline, nor do I work for an airport, but I do know how customers should be treated as its the same as any business - I'm not interested in business politics, pressures, policies etc - I just want my journey to go as smooth as possible, otherwise I may be taking my custom elsewhere. The average UK person goes on holiday just over once a year so its not a common experience for them being at the airport, so they are to be assisted and looked after properly.

Thanks,
Richard

[Neil]

Originally posted by Lipstick
Unfortunately guys all your comments clearly speak of people who've no idea what it's like to work in an airport and face the same arguements each day. What i'm saying is if pax are clearly informed - which they're not at the moment - that seats are just a request and are never guaranteed then there wouldn't be so much disappointment and tears at the airport when they find out they haven't got those seats.

As an airline Virgin is still growing and faces new challenges each day which pax, including yourseleves do not realise and there are far more reasons for things like reserved seating changing than you all realise. Like i said before if passengers where all informed about this service not being guaranteed, it would not only ease the problems at airports, but encourage the use of OLCI.

PJH - i agree with your comments - I was replying to the above comment from Lipstick who states the we are not told, you have pointed out it is made clear on the website but some pax dont use the net and "reserve" seats on the phone. Lipstick was using the fact to give an excuse why customer service can be poor and that is a totally unacceptable statement and worrying the Customer service staff, VS or other think like this.

Neil:)

I totally agree with Lipstick. As a Tour Operator customers are getting more and more demanding. While we try to accommodate everyone's needs we cant do what the airline wont let us. If there are no seats left to pre book we cant magic them.

While I understad it is not the customers job to know how it all works a little consideration that the Little Britian adage of 'Computer says No' is unfortunately all too true in our business and there is little or nothing we can do about it.
some Charter Airlines charge you for pre booking seats and they cant give seat numbers or promise you will be sat together!

[Neil]

Monkey - I don't think anybody is asking you to do what you can't. The point is that if VS or any other company offer a facility and it, in the eyes of the customer, goes wrong, changes etc then it is not, as Lipstick was saying the pax fault.

You have to remember that a lot of VS pax aren't regular flyers, don't know about wonderful sites like this so probably don't realise that aircrafts are changing all the time and how things can affect the changes the system is making, and to most people sitting together is a big issue, so when it does go wrong they will moan, if thats right or wrong then i guess it depends from whose point of view you a looking from, the pax or the Airline staff.

Neil

Whoooooah, Lots of interesting yet biting remarks going on here people !! lets take a chill pill,

The Original post highlighted the disapointment of having seats changed.. And yes it is not for a customer to understand the workings for an airline internally. All that was being pointed out by myself and other people is that Customers should understand that they are requests and not gauranteed. It is for the reasons stated where seats are split up that people become disapointed. In the old days before computers and uncomputerised check in with stickers on boarding cards you would have to turn up early to get your seats.

So airlines decided to go computerised and all airlines oversell seats, meaning that only a certain % can be booked or you cant check people in on the day until everone with an ASA turns up.

Indeed I would advise anyone reading this even if you have an ASA please turn up early or your seats will be released on the day.. if people turn up and the only seats are requested ones then those waiting to check-in take priority (how will the airline know others will turn up?)

All the airline staff at Virgin that have made posts here do appreciate the customer service is the most important thing and this is why they dont like the ASA system... not because they just want to get rid of it but because they see time after time where customers are let down... But I would appreciate that thse concept of ASA is important to customers so we need to find a way where it works for everyone.

[Scrooge]

It's a rock and a hard place,I can understand both sides,however with airlines pushing for OLCI etc the pax cannot be faulted for looking at it like they have been slighted.

Please understand that your John Smith high street guy has next to know idea on the working of an airline,all he knows is that when he booked his seat at Lunn Poly he was asked what seat he would like,he will pick what he think is the best,if the "system" moves him then unless it's an upgrade chances are he will not be to happy.

Then to have someone say "well it's a request not a gurantee" is just going to sethim off even more,now he will look at you like you are being condescending.

A little while back I wrote a rather large post on how to word the sorry we messed up letters,maybe I should just see if VS would like to hire to teach front line staff to deal with the general public.

Mile High

I appreciate your comments ... not sure if all those who say they are staff on the forum share them.

At the end of the day, it still remains that the internal workings of an airline are things you control and create, your paying customers should not be inconvenienced by them apart from unforeseen and exceptional circumstances. Whatever role of life we're in, and on this forum there's a huge range from undertakers to IT consultants, we know we go through pain but we keep that internalized in the pursuit of excellent customer service. Saying "some passengers think they have a god given right ..." doesn't speak the same language to me, I'd prefer to hear a balanced view on the challenges faced in service provision as well as the view of those who receive it.

It does seem to me that VS is losing its way at the moment, I hope people like you (and I appreciate the type of comment from your colleagues like 'snooze packs I eat my words') gain ascendancy within Virgin to get it back on track.

Slinks