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#14299 by frangipan
05 Aug 2006, 14:49
In a profoundly important respect, the bean-counters now in charge at Virgin have forgotten that their primary source of income is humans.

To a bean-counter, it makes sense to slice apparently "unnecessary" trimmings from a product, and thereby decrease incremental costs and increase gross profit. Indeed, one might think it irresponsible to one's shareholders to ignore focus-group and survey data which would suggest such cuts were possible. And, yes, if Virgin were producing printed circuit boards, and found that one method of surface-mounting was cheaper than another, then the bean-counters would be right to request the saving. Virgin Atlantic, however, do not make printed circuits boards - they deliver a service to humans, and humans do not react like printed circuit boards to apparently "rational" skimpings.

The bean-counters at Virgin have forgotten that they are in a service industry - a very competitive one - where the whole is worth more than the parts, and the "petty" details have devastating psychological importance. That Virgin, of all companies, has suddenly become blind to the subtlety of sustaining a community is astonishing: the most brand-conscious of organisations has forgotten that its flagship service is either burnished or tarnished through the composite of hundreds of apparently "insignificant" details; details like little red pillows, flowers, a "light bites" service, consistent staff-training and performance, and yes, a decent amenity kit.

Having forgotten this, perhaps any bean-counters would fail to understand how the effective removal of an amenity kit could have had the profound reaction it has received here:
"But nobody particularly cared about the amenity kit. There was wastage!", they might retort, incredulously. If one listens to the simple output of a focus group, or examines the evidence of "wastage" without a little lateral thinking of what might actually be implied, then one can fall in to these little traps, as the bean-counters have. Yes, many people did not "use" all the items in the kit. Yes, many people CLAIMED that they wouldn't miss it, were it gone. And, were people simple, linearly reactive robots, one would react accordingly to such "data". Unlike the bean-counters, most people have subtly contradictory psychologies which do not progress down such simplistic tracks.

In a profound respect, amenity kits, red pillows and the rest are not valuable merely for the utilitarian benefit they provide; their import lies in their being symbols of a complex social performance, one that acts to welcome the sustainers of one's flagship service, and yes, even to betoken a mild decadence, of being ALLOWED to waste, an invitation not to worry about being nickled and dimed. Funnily enough, an amenity kit's value is that it suggests an oppulence. "You may well not need it, but we care so much that we nevertheless provide it for you, just in case you do. No need to beg here!". They are physical metonyms for the brand, and the service as a whole. They represent the desire that the "guest" be comforted, pampered and valued, beyond responding cursorily to specific requests. Every culture - every SINGLE culture - has "gift-giving" as a token of esteem. Whether one visits a Bedouin tribe or a Scottish clan during Hogmany, a complex set of giving and receiving rituals indicate status, welcome and acceptance. The exchanged goods are not important. Their quality, and what they represent about attitudes are. This is a deeply rooted part of our species's enculturation, and the bean-counters ignore it at their peril.

Cultures are full of rituals and performances which, to a degree, could be "rationalised" away. Think of the complex Japanese tea-ceremony. A Virgin bean-counter would, no doubt, find the thing absurd, and suggest it be replaced with a tea-bag in a cardboard cup. After all, "surveys" would show that the tea-ceremony was not, indeed, the most convenient way of getting a cup of tea! Get rid of tokens and ceremonies and, strip by torn strip, one rips away the very essence of what makes a culture more than just a "bunch of people". Unpick the "unnecessary" threads comprising the tokens and ceremonies that are part of the complex tapestry of a premium brand, and one is left with a bare frame. Bare frames do not encourage brand loyalty! They encourage shopping-around and price comparisons.

High-premium brands are not selected by its customers primarily on price. Ryan Air can get away with stripping their planes to the bare bone, because few have a loyalty to the Ryan Air brand beyond its cheap fares. Virgin's genius used to be in recognising that brand-loyalty could be predicated on something less tangible, but more durable, than cost-cutting and service-paring.

In summary, then, Virgin Atlantic is losing its corporate soul and significantly damaging its high-end branding. The damage will not be visible initially beyond the "canaries in the mine" in these and other forums. Eventually, though, the results will be wide-spread and devastating to the brand. Who would have guessed, three or four years ago, that an impressionistic image of Virgin's top-end product would include penny-pinching, reduced and lacklustre food, embarrassed and listless employees, ripped cardboard handouts, utterly arrogant management and, most profoundly of all, "fan" sites filled with disillusion and complaint? There is a deep rot at Virgin's core. Its profitable future demands high-paying premium fliers. The brand eco-system that sustains these is being plundered by reductionist bean-counters in a way that should alarm highly any perspicacious shareholder. Virgin had better wake up now to the scorched earth it is razing, because its competitors are certainly no longer asleep, and seem to recognise much of what Virgin has forgotten in its blind pursuit of petty snipping.
#130980 by Scrooge
05 Aug 2006, 15:10
Well Mike I think you summed it up pretty well,such a shame as well,but there you go.

Though companies,at least in my book's are allowed to make mistakes,it seems that VS is taking the "they will get used to it approach",very reminiscent of BA a couple od decades ahgo.

Anyways there are a number of threads running with the same topic now,but I felt that this statement was so well written it deserved some feedback.

[y] Steve R
#130983 by fozzyo
05 Aug 2006, 16:01
Wow - what a fantastic first post Mike! Welcome to V-Flyer - its a pleasure to have you here.

Thanks for sharing such a great insight into customer service, and what is going on and why it is / and will effect the company so much. Really can't think of anything to add.

Mat
#130984 by Wolves27
05 Aug 2006, 16:04
Excellent post Mike and a far more impressive first post than mine :).

Have you thought about sending it over to VS at Crawley?

Dean
#130985 by xenole
05 Aug 2006, 16:04
VA could probably save a fortune on all these focus groups etc by logging onto this site and simply asking the forumites what is good, bad, needs changing etc......
#130987 by frangipan
05 Aug 2006, 16:07
Thanks for the comments, Steve. I have been reading the other threads, but I wanted to try to express a summarised response to those who say "oh, it doesn't matter - they're only tiny details". These details, which seem trivial and even wasteful, define the difference between a quality premium brand and a merely adequate premium brand. And adequacy does not beget loyalty!

If only Virgin realised the service that forums like these could provide as early-warning beacons. They would rather pay a large amount of money to external organisations to set up flawed focus groups. This is yet another indication of the alienation and rot, which comes just as other corporations are beginning to take great heed of the impact of social networking on the web. People here are conscious of the degradation of service, and set off the alarm. Many other "normal" travellers will not be conscious of the specifics, but just perceive something a little banal, a little tarnished - and certainly not particularly better than a newly-energised British Airways. Actually, it seems that British Airways's previous culture of arrogance and penny-pinching is providing the template for the "new" Virgin Atlantic. What an irony, bearing in mind the history between the two companies!

I can only imagine that SRB has virtually no day-to-day or even strategic influence or interest in his airline any longer, as the petty alienation that's drenching his company seems quite at odds with his original philosophy.
#130988 by mitchja
05 Aug 2006, 16:13
Great first post frangipan and welcome to V-Flyer [y]

Isn't there now at least 1 ex-BA manager working for VS. I'm sure I read this somewhere. This could explain part of this.

Regards
#130989 by Decker
05 Aug 2006, 16:17
An eloquently argued internally cohesive first post. Welcome to the board and thank you for such a cogent maiden posting. I look forward to more to of the same!
#130990 by frangipan
05 Aug 2006, 16:19
Hi Dean,

I would love to send it to VS in Crawly. Sadly, I don't think they'd pay any attention to my opinion unless I called myself a "consultant" and charged them 150k for it! Or, perhaps, if I were paid to be a member of a "focus group". But for free? No chance.

They should be listening, though. I run a company that's going to require increasing business-travel over the next few years, and a good proportion of it will be in Business class. At the moment, I'm really not minded to give that business to Virgin. I'm already annoyed that we have booked five Upper Class tickets with them for September alone. That shan't happen again.

As an example of their ignoring constructive discussion/complaints, take a look at a friend of mine's letter to them, to which he has received absolutely no response, not even an acknowledgement of receipt, even though he Ccd it via the post, Email and fax:
http://botherer.cream.org/?p=584

It is fun to read, constructive and a little cheeky. He's a journalist, and you'd think they'd want to respond to such a detailed note. But nope.

He also wrote an amusing "letter of complaint" to the Ibis Heathrow hotel on the same day. I recommend a read of it too, as it's great fun:
http://botherer.cream.org/?p=583

Unlike Virgin, Ibis responded immediately, thanked him for the humour, and agreed that beyond the laughs, there were significant problems which they would deal with immediately, and get back to him with the results. Guess which brand he'd be prepared to give another go, and recommend.
#130994 by frangipan
05 Aug 2006, 16:34
Oh yes - I should add that the actual letter of complaint he sent to Virgin actually had some constructive comments. He made it clear that he was not complaining that the plane had a technical fault. He understood and appreciated this could happen. His complaint was at the lack of communication, lack of organisation and lack of beyond-jobsworth care. More important than compensation was that Virgin take heed and reform their response to such mishaps. He wasted his time.
#130996 by preiffer
05 Aug 2006, 16:42
Great first post, frangipan - and thanks for framing so perfectly what, I think, is the content of my mind in relation to my dealings with VS right now.

It IS only the little things that are being taken away - but let's face it, to a bean counter - all that plane needs is seats (maybe!) and fuel. Anything else is just waste. [n]
#130997 by AndyK
05 Aug 2006, 16:49
Frangipan - love those links, the Ibis one was very amusing. Superb.
#130998 by MarkJ
05 Aug 2006, 17:27
A superb post and a hearty welcome to the board Mike.[y]

There have been a number of posts in the past detailing the good the bad and the ugly of all things Virgin however you have summed them all up succinctly here. As far as we are led to believe "someone" from Virgin does read what we write here - and whilst I have said this before - my business would pay good money to get market feedback as good as this from people who not only enjoy using the product but who want that product to succeed and be the best amongst its competitors.

I do not think there is a single member on this site who wants Virgin Atlantic to be the poor relation of any other airline - we want it to be the best.

And the thing that is so damn annoying is that we all know it can be - consisitency, a requirement to provide the "little"extras and a continuation of the innovation of the brand will make it number 1 again!:)
#131038 by RichardMannion
06 Aug 2006, 15:06
Frangipan,

I think that is the best opening post I have ever seen on a forum. I think your text perfectly summarises what many of the regular (and loyal) travellers are feeling. Penny pinching is not good - there are certain priorities that need to be re-evaluated before its too late. I know of recent, I myself have being looking more and more at BA for future travel arrangements. I'm one of those strange people that would in the past pay a bit more to fly on VS as opposed to another carrier, or in particular go indirect (trips to SEA spring to mind). It is the simple things like the ones you pointed out, I can add another one to the list that has no cost - recognition as a Gold. I can't remember the last time I was onboard that the FSM or crew proactively came up to me to welcome me as Gold. It is simple touches that make the routine of regualr travelling a little more bearable.

Maybe the bar is so high now as I've come to expect certain levels of service when travelling, or is it that others have caught up and started to exceed. To be at the forefront, one has to continually innovate and enhance, and not rest on laurels. My personal opinion is that some middle management are smarming over the ~35% hike in J traffic, and believe they can now sit back.

I've not been travelling so much this year, but given the recent reports, there is no incentive really to carry on once I have hit my 30TP to renew. I know some of the regulars here are doing this right now, and given the recent fare differences have started to fly BA and others, and realising that there is life outside VS - that the service has caught up or exceeded.

Thanks again for a great first post - I think it maybe time for a real focus group to happen, or for feedback to go to the right people.

Thanks,
Richard
#131046 by Littlejohn
06 Aug 2006, 15:51
Originally posted by frangipan
unless I called myself a "consultant" and charged them 150k for it!


And the problem is...?[}:)]
#131052 by slinky09
06 Aug 2006, 16:01
Originally posted by RichardMannion

I've not been travelling so much this year, but given the recent reports, there is no incentive really to carry on once I have hit my 30TP to renew. I know some of the regulars here are doing this right now, and given the recent fare differences have started to fly BA and others, and realising that there is life outside VS - that the service has caught up or exceeded.


Wholeheartedly agree with that statement Richard - I get the feeling that paying more (usually VS fares are the highest for the routes I travel) loses its attractiveness when things slip and slide. I for one am looking around - for example recently flew Emirates to India. While elements of it were not as good as Virgin in J, some things were better (food and wine) and it was a third less in price. So, having renewed Au, and with no set company policy Virgin are currently making it easier to cast one's eye around. ANZ to LA looks a good next bet for a change.
#131125 by v8gaz
06 Aug 2006, 22:59
Quality post, well done! I have to agree, it's not as good as it was. If I hadn't so much invested in FC points, and it wansn't so easy to get ponts using the amex card, then I guess I'd be looking to travel BA.
#131146 by Mavrick
07 Aug 2006, 01:48
Top class first post frangipan and welcome to V-Flyer. :D
#131177 by Neil
07 Aug 2006, 09:04
Good post - certainly a way to announce yourself to the site[y] It is interesting that there have been a numerous posts all based around the same topic recently, obviously something that VS do need to think about, but will they...... who knows I guess[?]

Neil:)
#131322 by laura23
07 Aug 2006, 22:37
I love reading this website, and everyones comments, but it does annoy me how many bad comments are made about Virgin.

Everyone just seems to love complaining, sometimes about big issues sometimes about the smallest issue. But this is what todays society is all about!

The topic about amenity kits makes me laugh! i cant believe how something so small has aggrevated you all so much! Everyone be honest - how often do you take an amenity kit off the aircraft? ONCE!
I have a friend who works for Virgin, and they said they have changed the upper class amenity kits due to it causing wastage and that its leading to it being environmentally friendly. The money that is saved by this goes into improving other products and creating new ones.

Virgin Atlantic is an innovative airline and strives to be the best like every other business. You have to take risks and play with new ideas, surely most of you business men and woman would agree. You cant keep offering the same service forever. This is what a lot of other airlines do and dont have the bottle to take that risk, and put their hands up if it doesnt work.

Another thing that aggrevates me, is how rude a few passengers can be on the flight. I dont understand how people think it is acceptable to not respect someone, especilaly if they are giving you a service.I have seen many paseengers onboard a flight (not just VS)who click there fingers at cabin crew, and shout 'oi'. This will anger the cabin crew like a normal human being and distract them from their work, and providing others with a good service.

A lot of people think Cabin Crew arent clever and are known as 'trolly dolly's', but they are humans and work exceptionally hard hours than a lot of us out there. You might not thinks its hard work, but could you stand on your feet for 8 hours with a continuous smile on your face? A few passengers seem to think they are of a higher status than Cabin Crew so think they can speak like that. But what would you do without them.....you couldnt fly to your business trips or to your holiday destination.

As i say my freind works for VS and since joining, has realised how ungrateful some customers can be. They hardly receive a thank you or a smile, and try there hardest to help a passenger but get sometimes just get abuse back and no thank you. This is disgusting. I often have spoken to my friend after she has come home from work and will be down at how rude a passenger can be. She like everyone can understand if someone is upset. But why should she tolerate being sworn at and made to feal worthless after she has tried so hard to fix a problem however big or small.

She loves her job and is proud to work for Virgin, and is so happy when someones tells her how happy they have been with Virgin. Those are the ones they remember, and those are people that make a staff member have a smile on their face. How would those rude passengers like it if someone came to their work and spoke to them like that? As they say what goes around comes around.

Well thats my moan over! Just remember when your on your next VS flight or call through to the contact centre, say THANKYOU! Takes a second but means a lot to that member of staff. :D
#131327 by Treelo
07 Aug 2006, 22:57
Welcome laura23, and thanks for your POV on this emotive subject. Sorry your friend feels undervalued but I would like to think that only a very small minority of VS passengers adopt the 'snap fingers' attude and expect someone to jump to their side.

I think you'll find that the majority of the posters on this site are VS fans and, as such, become upset at (perceived) failures by the airline to maintain the high standard that has become the VS hallmark.

As I say, an emotive subject and one on which everyone holds an opinion. To say that all VS cabin crews are fantastic would be wrong - there are good ones and not so good ones, just are there are good and not so good cabbies, barbers, chefs etc etc. However in the main, I have experienced more good than not so good and I think you will find that is the general opinion on v-flyer.

So please, reassure your friend that she is not taken for granted, certainly not by the majority of true VS fans.
#131328 by Scrooge
07 Aug 2006, 22:57
Laura,

We agree with you,the point we are trying to get across is that while the front line staff are great they seem to be constantly let down by the higher ups.
#131329 by frangipan
07 Aug 2006, 23:00
Laura, when you pay *thousands of pounds* for a travel ticket, and indeed pay thousands of pounds more than you otherwise would need to, the "little" things matter, for all the reasons I explained in my opening post. Please have a read of it, if you haven't, because you fall in to some fallacious traps.

Certainly, if Virgin were a charity, or an amateur collective, then it would be churlish to complain about the "little" things. In fact, Virgin are a profit-making corporation, as rapacious as any, in a competitive market. They are not doing high-yield passengers a "favour" - they are to provide an exacting service for a handsome fee. That is why the following comment of yours misses the point:
> As i say my freind works for VS and since joining,
> has realised how ungrateful some customers can be.

Customers do not have to be "grateful". Your friend is not a slave, but works for a salary to do the customers' reasonable bidding. This does not mean that customers (or, one should rather say, people in general) should be nasty or uppity - I always try to be pleasant to people who are paid to serve, and any decent human will. A customer who clicks his fingers or is rude is an unpleasant human, and that's an end of it. It goes both ways. I have been polite and reasonable with cabin crew, and have had them be abrupt and rude in response. Sadly, I'm sure we all have at one time or another. Politeness is a two way street, on which, unfortunately, there are many head-on collisions. We should certainly all try to be civil, then, but to suggest that we should be *grateful* for a service for which we are paying thousands of pounds is ludicrous.

I run a company which provides services and has a number of regular customers. I would never, ever think of a customer with a grievance as "ungrateful". I might think his grievance unreasonable, or that he's misunderstanding something, but to demand he be "grateful"? Never. Certainly, it's not pleasant, in a human sense, to have a stressed customer vent his anger at me, or to be curt, or not to understand the value of what we provide. Nevertheless, this is their prerogative, and I'm certainly not going to be prissy about it. They pay my company to run systems for them, and pay my salary. It is not their duty to be grateful - it is my duty to be grateful that they choose us, and am keen to reward their loyalty with ever-better service, whether they send me a thank you note, wag their finger or don't respond at all!

And please don't bring up the risible canard about the Scrooge Pack's introduction as having anything to do with environmentalism. That's enough to make anyone retch!
#131331 by MarkJ
07 Aug 2006, 23:02
Hi Laura,

Welcome to V-flyer and thanks for such a good first post - seems like this thread now has two excellent first posts in it!

The first thing in response is to say that there isn't a soul on here who condones being rude to cabin staff or not treating them with respect and I do not think you will find anyone disagreeing with anything you say on that subject. No one here thinks of them as "trolley dollies" - in fact - why not get your friend to join v-flyer too and make some contributions.


I do however think for every bad comment there are as many if not more good ones. I think its fair to say that those of us who use this site and contribute to it do so because we feel something for the Virgin Atlantic brand - we want it to be the best and we have all had experiences that make us continue choosing and flying VS - indeed many of us plan our holidays to places that are served by VS.

The issues arise however when we feel that the standard of service is dropping or that penny pinching where it should not be happening is getting beyond a joke - none of us wants to use other airlines when VS flys the route but price and service and facilities all play a part in that choice - OK so at £300 return Y if VS take the Lewis duck out of the amenity kit then sad as it is - its one of those things - but when you are paying 2,3, 4 THOUSAND POUNDS then I think its right and proper to expect those extra touches - amenity kits, flowers, pillows, being called you your name, priority boarding, luggage priority that comes with the price paid!!

We all use VS in varying degrees - but no-one on here has been asked to a "FOCUS " group - so who is - how are these groups made up? Surely, surely - and I make the point again- someone at VS is monitoring this site. Even crew have become embarassed at the "cheap"look of the new amenity kit!!

And whilst I think that VS crew are the best there is in terms of attitude and service and capability the thing that is really annoying is when when one of the crew lets the others down - by not caring about the customer and not caring about the company - ask your friend - I am sure she will have instances where she saw or heard something that was wrong or embarrasing!!

Many of us have filled in Heroes cards, written and emailed VS after great service and passed comment on that fact on this web site. We only get fed up with things when they are not right - and we do this and we write about it because we really do care.

Why am I typing this at 10 pm on a Monday night - coz I care. We all care!! I want - as do we all- Virgin Atlantic to be the best - to be the leader, to be the innovator - it always was and theres no reason why it cannot be again!!!
#131333 by Treelo
07 Aug 2006, 23:06
Well said, Mark [^]
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