Bulkhead Seats

What is the difference between first come first served at the time of booking, and first come first served at check-in?

Oh... I know.... A lost sale if your choice of seat isn't available, and you go elsewhere....
Where as if you don't make it to airport on time, you have already paid and are unlikely to want ot change your plans at such short notice.
I guess administering the "proof of need" policy is just too much hassle in the world of ebooking... That would create more admin costs.

Cynical. Moi?[:I]

As for an able bodied passenger grabbing the "big seats" and then being asked to move for someone more deserving, well, that's up to your conscience... and the size of the Upper Class seat you are being offered a move to

[Neil]

Originally posted by PVGSLF
What is the difference between first come first served at the time of booking, and first come first served at check-in?

Ah but that is not how it works, I have requested a bulk head at check in and have been told that it was not available as there were too many babies booked in PE and they were to be kept for them.

I guess I'm going to have to try to scrape together the extra for UC, I have promised my daughter this holiday, she misses out on so much because of her disability I can't take this from her now, its just a pity that because of VA's rules regarding bulkheads it is costing us even more which in reality if they organised the allocation of these seats better should not. Surely I should only have to chose UC out preference not necessity. Yes I know a holiday is not a necessity but you try telling a girl this when she sees all her friends go on school trips but she can't that she can't have a nice holiday instead.

Originally posted by Attitude23

Originally posted by PVGSLF
What is the difference between first come first served at the time of booking, and first come first served at check-in?

Ah but that is not how it works, I have requested a bulk head at check in and have been told that it was not available as there were too many babies booked in PE and they were to be kept for them.

Hmmm[:?] Maybe there were more babies than bulkheads?... I wonder if this had been made know to the babies parents at the time of booking they would have changed their plans to fly another day!
[i] And this is where we started! I'm going to stop now [:o)]

Originally posted by PVGSLF

I've flown with my kids when they were young, and becuase of the stupid "allocated at check-in" procedure, I had to fly 8 hours with a baby on my lap in a normal Y seat.... Maybe I would have chosen to fly another day if I knew this at time of booking!

Been there[:(!]

[Decker]

It's a tough call - in Pete's quote above

Cabin crew should be advised not to reallocate a seat on board unless the seat is occupied by a non-disabled passenger and a disabled passenger or someone with a young baby needs the seat.

even if they allocated you a seat if someone turned up at the airport before you with a baby or disabled without preallocation the code seems to allow reallocation.

So what is worst - being told to turn up and hope for the best or being told you have the seat and then getting there and finding the code allowed reallocation to someone else?

When we booked MCO tickets a couple of years ago (8 months before flying) we were told that the bulkhead seat was confirmed only to have this reversed at check-in. With a 3 month old this would have been major hassle but thankfully we were upgraded to PE.

Personally I don't like bulkhead seats as I find the leg room is worse than almost any other seat. The one thing they do provide is you can always be sure of getting out as there is no-one in front to recline.

I tend to agree that - providing you fit a particular requirement - you should be reserved a particular seat when you book. Incidentally not all bulkhead seats have skycot positions so there are certainly a couple of positions (at least on 747) that are bulkhead but unusable for skycots.

Phil FM

If they allocated bulkhead seats on booking making an allowance for a change of aircraft, booking the minimum then there would possibly be some over for flying club members etc. Just a thought really - a dream lol.

Originally posted by Decker
It's a tough call - in Pete's quote above

Cabin crew should be advised not to reallocate a seat on board unless the seat is occupied by a non-disabled passenger and a disabled passenger or someone with a young baby needs the seat.

even if they allocated you a seat if someone turned up at the airport before you with a baby or disabled without preallocation the code seems to allow reallocation.

So what is worst - being told to turn up and hope for the best or being told you have the seat and then getting there and finding the code allowed reallocation to someone else?

Granted, it's a tough call in that situation.
The only answer is to spend a little more admin cost on proving "need" at the time of booking.
In the case of babies the admin cost is offset by the fact that babies need tickets if not seats, and they still cost money.
For Disabled pax it's a little more tricky to work the proof, since anyone could claim to be disabled just to get the seat they want.
I suppose if the passenger is "Registered Disabled" then that can be used as proof.
But then again it's all down to being informed. Book the seat and be told in no uncertain terms that a bulkhead is not available (presumably grabbed by all the internet savvy six footers!), and if you still choose to travel on this date, whilst they will try to relocated the internet savvy six footers, there are no guarantees.... your choice!

I can really see a problem in proving a disability, if a person can not provide evidences ie blue badge a Dr's letter could be used.

Originally posted by FamilyMan
I tend to agree that - providing you fit a particular requirement - you should be reserved a particular seat when you book. Incidentally not all bulkhead seats have skycot positions so there are certainly a couple of positions (at least on 747) that are bulkhead but unusable for skycots.

Phil FM

We 'requested' 70 H&J for my two daughters (knowing there was no room for a skycot there) and 71 H&J for me and my husband. When we got to check-in seats 70 H&J had been allocated to the family who were using the skycot in 70 A&C, they were able bodied [:(!]

I have been mulling this thread over a bit. I think where I have got to is that a while passenger with a baby does need a seat with a skycot if available, I am struggling to see how their need is greater than some people with a disability. When I say some people, what I mean is that there are some disabilities, upper body for example, that may well not need the accessibility. And this would, I think, justify there not being a carte blanc for the disabled requesting the seats. However, if the pax can produce a Dr letter showing the accessibility requirement (rather than a general disability qualification) then surely their need is as great as the mum and dad?

I also accept that the airline cannot be held liable for accessible seat availability - this is why they are exempt from the act I guess and it does seem to make sense (It is a possibility there would be more demand than supply). And of course this means that everyone who books should take it on themselves to ensure they are happy they can use any of the seats (Families as well as disabled). But this of course does not mean the airline could not accept, and attempt to satisfy a request for an accessible seat. I am surprised as special assistance not being more helpful if the OP is able to explain why the need for accessibility exists.

[Pete]

Originally posted by triciacarole


We 'requested' 70 H&J for my two daughters (knowing there was no room for a skycot there) and 71 H&J for me and my husband. When we got to check-in seats 70 H&J had been allocated to the family who were using the skycot in 70 A&C, they were able bodied [:(!]

To be fair, this may have been because Virgin have a CAA obligation to use their best efforts to seat families together. Whilst it would have made a lot more sense to allocate those seats to you, it may have meant splitting the family, and the CAA rules have to take priority over a voluntary code of conduct.

Pete

[Decker]

But again regardless of proof of need they'll still release your seats if someone else who needs it turns up before you. You'd think that under these circumstances they'd leave it until the checkin closed but the code doesn't seem to indicate that. Still internet savvy tall people could still find themselves reallocated after checkin by that code.

That said the concept of "disability" does seem to have been stretched somewhat under the DDA.

Originally posted by Decker
That said the concept of "disability" does seem to have been stretched somewhat under the DDA.

Must agree with that.

triciacarole,

I'm sorry to hear that you have had such a problem over this, and that as a result you may choose to fly with a different airline. IMHO, the answer is quite simple (though it will peeve many others). I think all bulkhead seats and exit row seats should be treated equally, i.e. they can only be allocated a) at check-in or b) through the special assistance team. In the latter example, it should be on the strict understanding that the pax should present supporting evidence of a need for a bulkhead seat (where necessary!) at check-in, and that the seat will only be held until two hours before departure. So in triciacarole's example, if I understand her daughter's disability correctly, she should book her seats through special assistance, explaining that she will bring a doctor's letter to check-in to confirm her right to that seat, NO LATER than two hours before departure.

Six foot+ pax should be restricted to buying an exit row seat at check-in, if available, not swagging bulkhead seats because they booked super early, or know how to work the system. I'm 6'1", and I fit quite happily into a Y or W seat. The fact I don't want to is a choice, not a right.

As for parents with babies needing sky cots, I have to say I think their need is not so great, though I do thinkn that airlines in general should find a way of creating a seat for infants that will fit in most normal seats, rather than only certain bulhead seats. I also have had to have my children share my seat in the past. I seem to remember though that there are alternatives to sky cots, though maybe these are not for infants?

OK, flameproof suit on!

This is certainly a good, well balanced topic of discussion!
But I think there must be a way within the system to give those with a need a more informed choice.
Even if it is something as simple as a tick box on the website when you choose your seat:

Tick1 - I'm an internet savvy tall person, and whilst I got in first and bagged the bulkhead I accept that I may be reallocated to another seat at anytime up to doors closing.

Tick2 - I'm a parent with baby and got in first and bagged the bulkhead. Fair play to me! I will only be reallocated to another seat if I don't turn up at check-in with a baby.

Tick3 - I'm a parent with baby, and whilst the system told me there wasn't currently a bulkhead seat available, it also told me that there is an internet savvy tall person who has agreed to be reallocated should the need arise. You are first in the queue for this seat and can safely assume it will be yours should you turn up at check-in with a baby.

Tick4 - I'm a Disabled Person and got in first and bagged the bulkhead. Fair play to me! I will only be reallocated to another seat if I don't turn up at check-in with a Blue Badge or Doctors letter.

Tick5 - I'm a Disabled Person, and whilst the system told me there wasn't currently a bulkhead seat available, it also told me that there is an internet savvy tall person who has agreed to be reallocated should the need arise. You are first in the queue for this seat and can safely assume it will be yours should you turn up at check-in with a Blue Badge or Doctors letter.

Tick6 - I'm a Disabled Person or a Parent with Baby, but the system has told me I'm too late and all the bulkhead seats have already been allocated to deserving people. I can choose to travel anyway on this date (maybe a deserving person will not have the required proof on the day), or be presented with a list of dates +/-7days where these seats are still available.

How hard can it be? OK, so there might be a few annoyed internet savvy tall people, parents who forgot their babies, or Doctors Notes written in illegible scrawl, but they did tick the boxes accepting that they might be moved on the day if they can't prove their need.

Sounds good to me

I've been doing a lot of number crunching last night and there is no way we can afford the UC fare, I originally looked at the lowest fare for UC thinking I could get that on companion seats (silly me). So really I'm back to square one, do I re-mortgage my house to afford the 16K for flights or do I take my chances and hope my daughter gets a bulkhead seat...I'm getting dizzy.

Thank you Andrew, me arriving two hours before with supporting documentation would be no problem.

As far as babies are concerned when both of my daughters were babies I paid for a seat for them, although it was 14 years ago Virgin let me take my car seat onboard and attach it to their seat, therefore my daughters were also safer than being left in a skycot and did not have to be woken each time there was turbulence to put them on my knee in order to put their belt on.

Originally posted by PVGSLF
This is certainly a good, well balanced topic of discussion!
But I think there must be a way within the system to give those with a need a more informed choice.
Even if it is something as simple as a tick box on the website when you choose your seat:

Tick1 - I'm an internet savvy tall person, and whilst I got in first and bagged the bulkhead I accept that I may be reallocated to another seat at anytime up to doors closing.

Tick2 - I'm a parent with baby and got in first and bagged the bulkhead. Fair play to me! I will only be reallocated to another seat if I don't turn up at check-in with a baby.

Tick3 - I'm a parent with baby, and whilst the system told me there wasn't currently a bulkhead seat available, it also told me that there is an internet savvy tall person who has agreed to be reallocated should the need arise. You are first in the queue for this seat and can safely assume it will be yours should you turn up at check-in with a baby.

Tick4 - I'm a Disabled Person and got in first and bagged the bulkhead. Fair play to me! I will only be reallocated to another seat if I don't turn up at check-in with a Blue Badge or Doctors letter.

Tick5 - I'm a Disabled Person, and whilst the system told me there wasn't currently a bulkhead seat available, it also told me that there is an internet savvy tall person who has agreed to be reallocated should the need arise. You are first in the queue for this seat and can safely assume it will be yours should you turn up at check-in with a Blue Badge or Doctors letter.

Tick6 - I'm a Disabled Person or a Parent with Baby, but the system has told me I'm too late and all the bulkhead seats have already been allocated to deserving people. I can choose to travel anyway on this date (maybe a deserving person will not have the required proof on the day), or be presented with a list of dates +/-7days where these seats are still available.

How hard can it be? OK, so there might be a few annoyed internet savvy tall people, parents who forgot their babies, or Doctors Notes written in illegible scrawl, but they did tick the boxes accepting that they might be moved on the day if they can't prove their need.

ROFLMAO[^] !!!

Very good. Sounds more like a LCC booking form though .

triciacarole - This is purely my opinion, but if I were you, I sould book the PE seats, and turn up as early as possible at the check-in desk (i.e. four hours before the flight if possible, when it opens) if you have no luck bagging a seat online when you book or 24 hours before the flight when OLCI opens, and extra seats are released.

Take a doctors letter with you, and don't be afraid to fight for what I would consider to be nothing short of a reasonable request. In my opinion, VS will always bend over backwards to help you if they possibly can.

Write to Special Assistance, or better still to Customer Relations:

email: [email protected]
Fax: 08701 900 959

Virgin Atlantic Airways
Customer Relations
PO Box 747
Dunstable
LU6 9AH
UK

or even to Sir Richard Branson's office at Crawley. State your case. You WILL get a response (sometimes it takes a while). I hope it is the right response for you.

Thank you so much Andrew . I have been on a real downer over this for the past few days, there is no way I can afford UC at £8k on companion seats, this added to the cost of our accommodation I would be paying more than I did for my first house.

I did call special assistance but found the agent I spoke to very obstructive so I shall write to customer relations and Sir Richard, do you happen to know where I can find the address for the Crawley office?

[Neil]

here is the Crawley address, from the main VS site.

Neil:)

Thanks

Originally posted by triciacarole
Thank you so much Andrew . I have been on a real downer over this for the past few days, there is no way I can afford UC at £8k on companion seats, this added to the cost of our accommodation I would be paying more than I did for my first house.

I did call special assistance but found the agent I spoke to very obstructive so I shall write to customer relations and Sir Richard, do you happen to know where I can find the address for the Crawley office?

You are very welcome. And sorry I forgot to put in the Crawley address [:I] - and thanks Attitude23 for linking it.

Best of luck,