Carbon Offsetting

Yep. They are not big you know, and nor do they smell. But the compsty stuff you get out is great.

I implimented recycling bins for HDPE & PET plastics in all the main village centres around us, (we already have a doorstep collection of aluminium, tins, glass, paper, clothing) plus has a Section 106 agreement put into place that all new house builds for individual units with gardens would have supplied by the developer, a compost bin and a water butt.
We once a year hand out energy efficiebnt lightbulbs to the residents also.

I am not sure bird flue and CO2 are mutually exclusive issues. I will however have a word with the cows and see if they will stop farting.

No, I was meaning that whatever is suposedly going to be the end of the world at a given moment depends on what the media chooses at the time;)

VS.

I'm afriad I'm in the camp of "the government is already doing my bit for me - aren't they? [?]"
Well, perhaps not, but it would be good to see the government get a big pot of money to build wind and wave power, and perhaps fund the endless public enquiries into new Nuclear Power plants. (How much greenhouse gas will be generated, both bodily and from heating and lighting the public enquiry buildings!)

Actually I'm not expecting to fly from the UK for a while, but have a lot of flights coming up around other countries and the tax I paid for those was next to nothing. And with only a small fraction of daily flying originating from the UK, the rest of the world really needs to start acting too.

changed the car from a 2.8l to a 600cc

Yeah I changed from a 4400cc V8 to a 5700cc V8 and I don't have a worm farm:D

Originally posted by Jon B
Good to see a few people burying there heads in the sand on this one (yet again)

'I've paid APD so don't need to do anything else'

'Lets see what the government does with the extra money they are getting from me'

Such short sightedness....

Presumably those same people will be the ones asking what the government will do to cure the skin cancer they may get in the future. Don't worry about it though, it'll probably be the next generation who starts to really suffer - you'll be OK

Take responsibility for your own actions and minimise the impact wherever possible

Bottom line is anything you do to offset is a good thing!

Jon B

Going to have to disagree with you a bit there, remember when the powers that be ASKED us to pay an extra 1p for the Hospitals, most people said yup okay do it. Thats not the same as a tax for a perceived problem that is NOT going to be used for a solution, its stupid and does nothing to get people onboard. Taxes have been turned in to punishments, politicians are actually useing those words
people who are irresponsible with the environment need to be punished, thats what I heard on the radio.

the fact is this punishment affects mainly the lower end of society, if you can just barely afford a holiday you will be taxed, if you can afford an extra £80 though go ahead and add to the problem.

Carbon offsetting is mainly to satisfy a percieved guilt, if I make a stink in next doors house and spray freshener in my house then thats ok syndrome.

Its not short sightedness with a lot of people its mistrust. Slight of hand taxation and media sensationalisation does not engender a community spririt. I am actually tired of being reprimanded by government and self righteous groups about the environment whilst at the same time big business can carry on over packing food, pumping the majority of co2 from factories and power stations when they have the means to dispose of it properly, making disposables, nappy, incontinance pads that last 1000 years, inventing this and that new method of dusting, wiping, airfreshening products with throwaway attachments to keep us hooked on the buying cycle.

If this problem affects all of us ( and I still am not 100% convinced though I am getting there ) then why not have a lesser environmental tax for all of us and ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING WITH IT TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM. It doesn't matter if you fly or not planes trains and automobiles are the things that we all rely on for our food, etc.

I was all for doing this tree-planting offsetting malarky, until I listened to a programme on Radio 4 that featured some ecologist type blokes commenting that it was all a bit of a scam really, and the only benefit from sending your money to these things was your own conscience. The reality is that they don't 'offset' your emissions any more than wishing them away on a dandelion flower...

Global industry has to change. Anything else is p***ing in the wind..

[HighFlyer]

EGG raises some good points there. Why not tax people according to their carbon footprint rather than a blanket 'Green Poll tax'?

Maybe one for the OT forum - How would YOU solve the problem?

Funnily enough, we have all been discussing this in the office today as our CEO is making waves to generate less waste and do 'our bit'. His genius idea was to simply restrict the hours that the heating system is active for

Thanks,
Sarah

Originally posted by easygoingeezer

Originally posted by Jon B
Good to see a few people burying there heads in the sand on this one (yet again)

'I've paid APD so don't need to do anything else'

'Lets see what the government does with the extra money they are getting from me'

Such short sightedness....

Presumably those same people will be the ones asking what the government will do to cure the skin cancer they may get in the future. Don't worry about it though, it'll probably be the next generation who starts to really suffer - you'll be OK

Take responsibility for your own actions and minimise the impact wherever possible

Bottom line is anything you do to offset is a good thing!

Jon B

Carbon offsetting is mainly to satisfy a percieved guilt, if I make a stink in next doors house and spray freshener in my house then thats ok syndrome.

I am actually tired of being reprimanded by government and self righteous groups about the environment whilst at the same time big business can carry on over packing food, pumping the majority of co2 from factories and power stations when they have the means to dispose of it properly, making disposables, nappy, incontinance pads that last 1000 years, inventing this and that new method of dusting, wiping, airfreshening products with throwaway attachments to keep us hooked on the buying cycle.

Sorry EGG, but as a consumer you have the ability to change the way you buy. You certainly don't have to buy into anything that 'keeps you hooked' into a buying cycle''.

As for nappies, well consumers can always go back to re-usable ones, but these too have an impact on the environment as washing adds to the cycle of energy usage and therefore CO2 emissions.

Packaging in general is being reduced by most major manufacturers. The company I work for declares the ''absolute tonnage'' of cardboard used per year across all FMCG products and pays the respective amounts due based on manufacture into the industry body that helps fund recycling of the materials. As long as THE CONSUMER recycles the waste responsibly then this helps to minimise the impact on the environment.

If you take a look at the ''W.E.E'' (no not a joke I assure you) legislation you will see that there are very strict guidelines laid down to manufacturers regarding packaging.

The Government is trying to drag this country up to the level of some of our European neighbours. As an example in 2008 all primary cell batteries will have to be disposed of in recycle bins, Ni-cad batteries will be banned from sale - except for medical equipment usage and strangely - power tools.

Where I would have to strongly disagree with you though is where you said
Carbon offsetting is mainly to satisfy a perceived guilt, if I make a stink in next doors house and spray freshener in my house then thatÕs ok syndrome.

Bottom line is it's still better that you do something about the stink you caused than do nothing at all.

Simple things could make a big impact if everyone did it....
- Do your washing at 30 degrees
- Don't leave appliances on standby
- Recycle your rubbish responsibly
the list is endless, but there are too many lazy people living in denial (and that is aimed at the general population and not anyone on this forum)

Jon B

[preiffer]

Originally posted by Jon B
If you take a look at the ''W.E.E'' (no not a joke I assure you) legislation you will see that there are very strict guidelines laid down to manufacturers regarding packaging.

It's actually WEEE, and is costing my company millions and millions to implement.

Originally posted by preiffer

Originally posted by Jon B
If you take a look at the ''W.E.E'' (no not a joke I assure you) legislation you will see that there are very strict guidelines laid down to manufacturers regarding packaging.

It's actually WEEE, and is costing my company millions and millions to implement.

Oops so I missed an E out.....[:w] having sat through a three hour presentation on it last week plus the implications on the battery directive you're lucky I didn't call it something ruder than WEE

As for the cost, well it is massive for the Co I work for as well

Jon B

So jon do you really need those two countdowns, or does the offsetting just ease your mind a bit.

Looks to me like a case of slap the working mans head a bit and let the others/big boys do what they want, sorry but thats how it.

I am all for helping ease the situation but the punishment and condescention winds me up.

Originally posted by easygoingeezer
So jon do you really need those two countdowns, or does the offsetting just ease your mind a bit.

Looks to me like a case of slap the working mans head a bit and let the others/big boys do what they want, sorry but thats how it.

I am all for helping ease the situation but the punishment and condescention winds me up.

Think of it whichever way you want egg, no I really don't NEED those two countdowns, but as I like to take time off and spend it with my family then I choose to do so. If you've read some of my posts previously then you would certainly know I sit firmly on the left of the political fence, so 'slapping the working mans head' is something I wouldn't subscribe to.

In addition I now 'choose' not to fly as much to the USA as I used to on business, therby reducing my carbon footprint further.

I'll offset money for all 4 members of my family for both trips this year as well as paying the APD tax.

As an aside last year I also paid £300 in offsetting against the C02 footprint from heating my house / gas cooking and car mileage and flights I took.

So to answer your question....yes it does make me feel a little better, althogh I know it's not the solution long term

Jon B

Originally posted by Jon B

Originally posted by easygoingeezer
So jon do you really need those two countdowns, or does the offsetting just ease your mind a bit.

Looks to me like a case of slap the working mans head a bit and let the others/big boys do what they want, sorry but thats how it.

I am all for helping ease the situation but the punishment and condescention winds me up.

Think of it whichever way you want egg, no I really don't NEED those two countdowns, but as I like to take time off and spend it with my family then I choose to do so. If you've read some of my posts previously then you would certainly know I sit firmly on the left of the political fence, so 'slapping the working mans head' is something I wouldn't subscribe to.

In addition I now 'choose' not to fly as much to the USA as I used to on business, therby reducing my carbon footprint further.

I'll offset money for all 4 members of my family for both trips this year as well as paying the APD tax.

As an aside last year I also paid £300 in offsetting against the C02 footprint from heating my house / gas cooking and car mileage and flights I took.

So to answer your question....yes it does make me feel a little better, althogh I know it's not the solution long term

Jon B

My post wasn't intended to slur you in anyway or diminish your objectives, BUT it does give you an idea of how sometimes it feels like we are being talked down to and made to justify ourselves and made to feel guilty at best and scared witless at worst.

Personally I am more left of centre, but it looks like dictatorship in sheeps clothing sometimes nowadays.

Spend the tax on renewable energy or a solution and I think everyone will step onboard quite happily.

Personally I find the whole debate rather like the nuclear debate of the seventies. What we have is responsible Westerners wringing their hands and declaring this treaty and that treaty whilst the main polluters, such as China and the loggers of Brazil quietly carrying on polluting and taking the western jobs and money at the same time.
Its quite amusing that France are threatening extra taxation on the USA unless they sign up to the treaties, whilst increasing the amount of energy supplied to them by Nuclear generators and the amount of power stations they are building.

Originally posted by AlanA
What we have is responsible Westerners wringing their hands and declaring this treaty and that treaty whilst the main polluters, such as China and the loggers of Brazil quietly carrying on polluting and taking the western jobs and money at the same time.

Hmmm not sure I buy into that. Market forces drove manufacturing to the less developed nations because labour is cheaper and we wonderful responsible westerners demand low pricing yet at the same time a year on year growth in the return on investment from the stock market. If you and I were prepared to pay more for our products via ethical trading then this would not happen

Jon B

Originally posted by Jon B
[br
Hmmm not sure I buy into that. Market forces drove manufacturing to the less developed nations because labour is cheaper and we wonderful responsible westerners demand low pricing yet at the same time a year on year growth in the return on investment from the stock market. If you and I were prepared to pay more for our products via ethical trading then this would not happen

Jon B

Labour is only cheaper due to the fact that they pay scant regard to such things as Health & Safety, do not have the crippling taxation of Western Europe and are partly controlled by the Government.
Its not a level playing field of any measure.
It is true to say however, that our western society is now fixated on the "bargain" mentality which also includes the attitude that if I pay cheap I don't expect it to last and just go out an buy another one. This does nothing towards our recycling and wastage targets

Ethical trading is a more difficult area. This is actually cartel price control which did not work before and I feel would not work again. Also, if the price of the average worker's basic fundementals such as coffee rises to give ethical price control, what will be their attitude?

However again, should we accept goods into Europe from countries which do not have our minimum wage levels and our rules and regulations regarding workers rights, (even though the UK opted out of the Working time directive and Germany is removing the 33 hour week rule) or is this just propping up innefficient European companies, such as the Italian shoe industry?
This is one of the most difficult questions of modern times.

Where does the call centre operative who bought their cheap Daihatsu/Hyundai car because it was a bargain stand when due to the same theory their job is outsourced to India?

Where does the City gent who would never buy a Britsh manufactured product because it did not refelect their status in life, and must have the latest BMW or Japanese Plasma screen stand when the city jobs are moved to the Far East to save money?

Am I calling for tarrif barriers and anti dumping laws to be re-enacted?, or is this the future of the UK to be one great big supermarket for other peoples goods and all of us to be paid minimum wage working in the service industry or work for a non productive Government quangoes.?
should we have an open skies policy where any airline in the world can fly from the UK to the United states? We have already seen other European countries fighting against the likes of Ryanair and EasyJet having cate blanche to their skies whilst we allow them to do so. is this good or bad?

Its a very difficult fine line to be drawn. I for one do not know the answer or where the future for UK PLC lives.

Originally posted by Jon B

... Market forces drove manufacturing to the less developed nations because labour is cheaper and we wonderful responsible westerners demand low pricing yet at the same time a year on year growth in the return on investment from the stock market. If you and I were prepared to pay more for our products via ethical trading then this would not happen

Jon B

The original driving force behind all the booming economies in the world was western companies outsourcing manufacturing to make cheap products to sell back to western consumers. It really should be up to the west to lead the way.
America complains that it would give China an unfair advantage is they signed up to Kyoto, but it is not just china's fault that they have the ability to manufacture all that the world wants at a far lower price. Perhaps it is Americas fault for letting the likes of Dell/Apple/GAP etc. outsource their manufacturing to cheap plants in China. I don't see many native chinese brands in the shops in England. but I see plenty of western brand names with "made in china" on them.

Much like the ISO9000 standards of the nineties, there is now a rush by companies to get the latest greatest ISO accreditation to give them an edge over competitiors. This is ISO14001 for enviromental protection. To get accreditation companies must put in place enviromental protection plans such as reducing waste and energy usage, which is regularly audited.
But the big thing is that companies should also only choose suppliers with similar environmental protection plans.
The big names in my business are now starting to jump on this, and it is starting to filter down the supply chain to the developing nations.
Much like the fair trade schemes, we can all do our part by insisisting that our "suppliers" are following such environmental practices. And I don't mean conscience clearing tree planting, I mean controlling their supply chain and ensuring that their factory in china is not only treating the workers fairly, but also using energy efficiently, recycling and not polluting.
So, it costs you and I more for our next iPOD... but it won't cost the Earth!
Oops![/Al Gore Mode]

the problem with TS16949, QS9000 and ISO14001 is that they are acheived and then compaies pay lip service to it until they need to be audited again.
Also, there is the situation where the UK plant has the quality standards and the companies when asked say "yes we have ISO 14001 in place" but the Chinese factory isn't. As the packaging of the part is done in the UK factory, that is classed as the production site.
As with any system, there are ways around the costs involved. I would never say that countries policing of their quality accreditation companies is very different where you are in the world........[:w][:w]

Originally posted by PVGSLF

The original driving force behind all the booming economies in the world was western companies outsourcing manufacturing to make cheap products to sell back to western consumers. It really should be up to the west to lead the way.
America complains that it would give China an unfair advantage is they signed up to Kyoto, but it is not just china's fault that they have the ability to manufacture all that the world wants at a far lower price. Perhaps it is Americas fault for letting the likes of Dell/Apple/GAP etc. outsource their manufacturing to cheap plants in China. I don't see many native chinese brands in the shops in England. but I see plenty of western brand names with "made in china" on them.

Well said, although I would not just lay the blaim at the US's door. True the US did not sign kyoto, although the value of a country actually signing it is a good debating point. But the developed world in general encouraged globalisation and all it entails with regards to green issues. It seems to me that global production is with us to stay because it is driven by consumerism, which shows no sign of reducing. It is not the fact that China (or where ever else) makes the products we buy that is the problem. The root cause is the insatiable demand (dare I say greed) of western consumers for goods at the lowest possible prices. In my mind I cannot reconcile low and ever lower prices with investment in green technology; to me these seem like mutually exclusive options.

Luckily we are seeing some consumers who are prepared to pay green premiums - Carbon offsetting being the key example. But this only goes part way in that it only addresses one issue. It is also about cleaning up, rather than stopping making a mess - it is addressing the symptoms rather than the cause. I hope that in the future we see a solid organisation springing up to certify green manufactured goods. Somethign along the lines of the Organic Soil Association, but covering a broad range of green manufacturing issues.

Update..
Planting trees does indeed NOT offset carbon emissions...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6378471.stm

[RichardMannion]

Originally posted by preiffer

Originally posted by Jon B
If you take a look at the ''W.E.E'' (no not a joke I assure you) legislation you will see that there are very strict guidelines laid down to manufacturers regarding packaging.

It's actually WEEE, and is costing my company millions and millions to implement.

Not a dig at all, but we know who that cost will get passed on to. Oh yes that be us as the consumer. Maybe the aim of the government is for us to have less disposable income full stop.

I'm sorry, but I really don't buy into the whole carbon offset piece. I am taxed heavily, I have to pay higher APD, retailers are getting stung to line up and will pass the cost on to me as a consumer. I was watching an old episode of Top Gear recently and there was a brilliant point made about the showbiz/celeb elemtn doing the PR spin because they have bought a Prius, but fail to mention the other mass polluters that they have. Prince Charles with his fleet of Aston's, A8 4.2 etc. My company car is taxed based on its CO2, so I pay attention now to that as it will cost me much more otherwise - maybe I should go for the tree hugging hippy Prius and pay peanuts in tax and then go and get the Range Rover with its silly CO2 privately (oh yes, Charles has a couple of Range's too). Pedantic perhaps - but I think a lot of us are doing more than enough already.

Thanks,
Richard

Last week I listened to a miriad of Scientists on BBC5live telling me that although the ice is melting up top, its being created down below, and in fact there is a higher percentage of ice being formed globally. Scientists are a little like Historians, theologans and mathematicians. What they do is put themselves above the rest of us and then debate and debate theories and argue amongts themselves to eternity. Meanwhile us mere mortals that earn a living and are not sitting on some self made ivory tower just read about scare stories and get pummelled with them constantly.

Just watch some dicovery channels and you will see the bearded proffs telling us about supervolcanoes, catastrophic earth quakes, super tsunami's, comets, pandemics yada yada yada, when asked about the time scale all of them individually say, well it could be today, could be tommorow could be a million years before it happens, erm yeh right, and we should be prepared for SanFransisco falling in to the sea, Yellowstone National Park exploding, Florida dissapearing under a mega tsunami.

Strange no-one ever seems to mention the Earth poles changing by as much as 40% in recent history, the wobble that the Earth took just before the tsunami ( which factually affects climate ), no one factored in the suns present high activity ( factually affects climate).

How about the ice age that never came that fame seeking scientists frightened us about as late as the 1970's. The holes in the ozone layer over Europe that have repaired themselves.

Just as politics should not be mixed with religeon the same goes for science.

If this Global warming "its the end of the world as we know it "again" is indeed factual then I want to see it dealt with, but I don't want to be punished for living and I don't want a global warming tax being funelled in to a school or a hospital.

Sorry guys but this pompous self righteous we care more than you and are more responsible than you brigade gets my back up. Especially when its used as a method of control, a diversion from other bad policies and an excuse to squeeze some more cash of people.

Offsetting, just like punching one guy in the face and giving his mate a plaster, what the hell is that all about.

I have a whole collection of Science and physics books written by experts from school and whole chapters have been disproved, yet when I was a kid I was supposed to swallow it as fact because the people that wrote them were oh so much more important than me.

The world used to be flat you know!

Well said EGG

[Pete]

Originally posted by easygoingeezer

no one factored in the suns present high activity ( factually affects climate).

Well, to be a pedant here, we're currently only just starting to emerge from Solar Minimum (the sun operates on an 11-year cycle between minimum and maximum, which can be observed via sunspot activity). And assuming we were at maximum, solar flares and mass ejections is more likely to cause disruption to electrics, satelites and GPS's than melt ice caps. But I get your point.

Personally I don't think there's anything wrong with the planet being more careful about the noxious gases that we spew into the atmosphere, but I don't think we've got our priorities right (penalising the wrong industries), and certainly don't think we should be taxing the individual with no transparent plans on how the money will be spent on environmental issues. There's far too much temptation for all these taxes, including APD, just to be swept up into the treasury and lost in the muddle of other expenditure. Hey, I'm angry enough at plans to expand congestion charges and pay-per-journey road tolls while we already have road tax and huge fuel tax (supposedly to discourage car useage); but if you don't live near a tube line and have only one bus service in the area (that stops at 7pm, I might add), cars are pretty essential things.

Ok, rant over. Time for a coffee!