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#19454 by AlanA
27 May 2007, 12:07
Reading of major problems over the last couple of days with the two Manchester-Orlando flights

VS73 cancelled yesterday, rescheduled for today at 10:25, now todays VS73 cancelled. VS74 Cancelled
VS75 due 10:25 now due 13:30?

What's going on anyone?
Virgins flights are beginning to get a reputation of "Charter quality" when it comes to on time flights, is it also true that Virgin are the second worst on-time company from LGW?

Is this more of the same attitude to V-Port, clubhouses etc that MAN and LGW are really just B & S routes so they can get second class service?
#172849 by Decker
27 May 2007, 12:23
Yes, undoubtedly.

{Whoops forgot the smiley ;)}
#172850 by Pete
27 May 2007, 12:39
Originally posted by AlanA

Virgins flights are beginning to get a reputation of "Charter quality" when it comes to on time flights, is it also true that Virgin are the second worst on-time company from LGW?


Of scheduled carriers at LGW during, yes. Of all carriers, including Charters, at LGW, no. Full details at http://flightontime.info
#172852 by AlanA
27 May 2007, 13:26
Originally posted by Pete


Of scheduled carriers at LGW during, yes. Of all carriers, including Charters, at LGW, no. Full details at http://flightontime.info


Is that url correct Pete? I am getting IE "White screen of death"
#172853 by Pete
27 May 2007, 13:34
seemed to die after I looked at it. I am the kiss of death ;)
#172855 by Decker
27 May 2007, 13:46
Pete "Azrael" Shaw has a certain ring...
#172856 by mitchja
27 May 2007, 13:47
It's working now.

Regards
#172857 by AlanA
27 May 2007, 14:02
yes it is thanks.

Anyone know what has made the problems this Saturdat at MAN?
#172860 by Pete
27 May 2007, 14:25
There's some interesting info on that site once you start digging about.

On the face of it, Virgin have a pretty bad record, but when you start drilling down to a route-by-route level, it looks like they are much closer to their competition. Perhaps it's just the nature of the routes they operate, and with the full-service necessities, that make overall comparisons flawed.

For instance, looking at their main routes on which they compete with British Airways for 2006;

New York:
British Airways, Ave. Delay 25.38m
Virgin Atlantic, Ave. Delay 29.09m

Boston:
British Airways, Ave. Delay 18.60m
Virgin Atlantic, Ave. Delay 19.59m

Los Angeles:
British Airways, Ave. Delay 29.38m
Virgin Atlantic, Ave. Delay 29.73m

San Francisco:
British Airways, Ave. Delay 19.06m
Virgin Atlantic, Ave. Delay 19.90m

Miami:
British Airways, Ave. Delay 27.11m
Virgin Atlantic, Ave. Delay 19.83m

Dubai:
British Airways, Ave. Delay 20.17m
Virgin Atlantic, Ave. Delay 33.78m

Mumbai:
British Airways, Ave. Delay 16.98m
Virgin Atlantic, Ave. Delay 26.36m

Hong Kong:
British Airways, Ave. Delay 19.25m
Virgin Atlantic, Ave. Delay 24.42m

Sydney:
British Airways, Ave. Delay 27.05m
Virgin Atlantic, Ave. Delay 24.42m

Tokyo:
British Airways, Ave. Delay 20.17m
Virgin Atlantic, Ave. Delay 16.55m

Shanghai:
British Airways, Ave. Delay 25.18m
Virgin Atlantic, Ave. Delay 18.24m

Johannesburg:
British Airways, Ave. Delay 18.66m
Virgin Atlantic, Ave. Delay 30.39m

Lagos:
British Airways, Ave. Delay 26.32m
Virgin Atlantic, Ave. Delay 19.81m

Cape Town:
British Airways, Ave. Delay 26.10m
Virgin Atlantic, Ave. Delay 19.68m

Apart from the notable wobbles (in both directions), this suggests to me that Virgin and British Airways are as good (or as bad!) as each other on these routes. Perhaps paperwork, security and number of people you're shifting has a big impact on an airline's ability to get out on time. bmi do pretty well in the tables, but is that because they fly mostly smaller planes on short haul, so therefore have less complication?

It's easy to look at some isolated data and say Virgin's performance is bad, but I'm a fan of data anaylsis to try and understand the macro view. We see 'declining standards' posts in the forum all the time, but the Trip Reports rating data doesn't really support it.

The assertion that this is "more of the same" attitude to MAN/LGW from a LHR-centric airline is not supported by the fact Virgin is most punctual out of Manchester, getting all flights out within 15 minutes over 66% of the time, compared with only 54% at Heathrow.

Pete
#172865 by AlanA
27 May 2007, 15:18
Pete,
That may be so for those flights, but the situation between BA and VS on the Orlando routes is much, much worse.
I did a comparison between
VS15
VS16
VS27
VS28
BA 2036
BA 2037
on one month, 12th April to 18th May 2007 (Uising up to 30 mins late as "on Time")
Virgin
VS15 3% early, 19% On time 43% 30mins -2 hours late 35% 2 hours plus
VS16 43% early, 11% On Time, 24% 30mins-2 hours late, 22% 2 hours Plus
VS27 5% early, 38% On time, 51% 30mins-2 hours late, 5% over 2 hours plaus
VS28 57% early, 24% On time, 11% 30mins-2 Hours late, 8% over 2 hours plus

BA
BA2036 97% early, 3% On tine
BA2037 14% early, 65% On time, 22% 30mins-2 hours late

That is a big difference on this route!
78% of VS15 is 30mins plus late
46% of VS16 is 30mins plus late
57% of VS27 is 30mins plus late
19% only of VS28 is 30mins plus late

BA2036 0% late
BA2037 only 22% 30mins plus late

the other difference was that BA were within 35 mins when late, Virgin were more than 1 hour plus late.
#172867 by p17blo
27 May 2007, 15:28
Ahem, is this not what I have been banging on about for the last 2 years :)

On the upside, at least there now seems to be some proof to back up my dissatisfaction and impending loss gold status with VS.

Paul
#172870 by p17blo
27 May 2007, 15:39
Following on the same (ish) subject I found the following site
http://www.flightstats.com
When I check on today's Orlando flight (which my folks are on) I get the following page back
http://tinyurl.com/2j9tcr
The interesting part is that as of 24 hours prior to the departure the departure had already been delayed. Quite an early time to really know about a delay.
Also interesting to see how the arrival time changes once in flight.

Paul
#172893 by MarkJ
27 May 2007, 20:34
Ive only ever had one delayed flight - a VS006 back from MIA - and that was because the aircraft had been diverted to Nassau coz of bad weather - but the figures above seem pretty bad for a scheduled airline!!

Could be worse though - could be Air Jamaica!![V]
#172895 by G-VROY
27 May 2007, 20:40
you also have to take into account that BA are flying less flights a day and smaller aircarft (correct me if wrong) caluclate that by the more people on each of vs flights and then take into account the people on bands routes, and im one of them i do this trip regualary but those people that just have to get that special something from duty free and then you lose your slot and so the delay begins...
#172929 by p17blo
28 May 2007, 10:50
BA do fly smaller aircraft and this was a definite benefit last time I flew them, however, a common complaint of mine is that VS never seem to start the boarding process early enough. I know sometimes this is down to captain and cabin crew but on other occasions it seems that people just can't get themselves ready; their time management is bad.

As for the BandS shoppers, put FINAL CALL up sooner and they should get to the gate sooner. Printer gate closed 40 minutes before departure and you might get them their that bit sooner also.

Virgin and other operators should know these problems and deal with them, not simply accept. This is a business route to me and I would like a similar service to other business routes.

Paul
#172931 by willd
28 May 2007, 11:03
Last time this cropped up I did a very hasty and crude stats report on delays by VS at LGW and found that really it wasnt anything "serious". Pete's site that he has found also highlights this.

What you have to remember is that the LGW fleet is stretched a lot more than the LHR fleet. So if a pax is late boarding an a/c in BGI by say 20 mins it can have a knock on on the following days flight.

To be honest I wouldn't say that it is VS not caring about its LGW/MAN operations I would argue that it is mainly due to the stretched fleet.
#172932 by mitchja
28 May 2007, 11:06
Originally posted by Pete
bmi do pretty well in the tables, but is that because they fly mostly smaller planes on short haul, so therefore have less complication?



I've actually always found bmi to be the worse out of the 3 airlines for delays. There have been numerous occasions when I've had 2 hour+ delays with bmi on domestic routes (both at MAN and at LHR). I can never understand how they end up getting such long delays on flights that only actually take 45mins.

I think the other thing which would speed up A/C boarding and thus improve OTD's (on time departure) would be 2 jetways for VS A/C at all UK airports.

Regards
#172966 by mike-smashing
28 May 2007, 16:21
Originally posted by mitchja
I've actually always found bmi to be the worse out of the 3 airlines for delays. There have been numerous occasions when I've had 2 hour+ delays with bmi on domestic routes (both at MAN and at LHR). I can never understand how they end up getting such long delays on flights that only actually take 45mins.


It's actually a lot easier to pick up delays on short-haul ops, because you've got more takeoffs and landings and ground activity compared to long-haul work.

Think about it... once that SFO-LHR flight is launched, it's up for 10 hours. During those 10 hours, a short haul operation could fly 6 to 8 30-60 minute sectors.

Each time the short-haul flight is taking off or landing, it's exposing itself to takeoff queues, handling delays, holding in-flight, flow control due to poor weather at the destination, etc. This is how you end up with delays on short flights - and part of the reason RYR uses less busy airports, because they aren't flow controlled to the same extent.

Long haul flights aren't flow controlled to the same extent, mainly because of their long flight times, there isn't an overload or weather scenario in place which requires flow control.

It's also a matter of perception - a 30 minute delay on a 10 hour flight generally isn't much of a problem. You've also got an opportunity in the longer flight time to fly a little faster, take advantage of favourable winds, or try and get "shortcut" routing to make some time up.

A 30 minute delay on a 60 minute flight is a 50% increase in the time the journey takes, and it's much more noticeable.

Another interesting thing noted in Pete's list is the high delay on the BA MIA flight - I wonder if this is an interesting artefact of it being the only BA flight to operate from T3?

Also, remember, if it's just one or two flights an airline is operating out of an airport, it's easy for delays to become noticeable in the overall stats, but it's similarly easy to get it closer to 100% if you're really good. If you've got lots of flights operating out of the same place, you can hide the really bad performance amongst the better performance in an average statistic like this.

You almost want maxima, minima, mode, and standard deviation to go with a simple mean to make the stats more meaningful. Remember there are lies, damned lies, and statistics!

I remember a time at LHR when VS was 2nd worst in the ratings for punctuality, with Air India at the bottom. Worst of all was that these ratings were reflected in my own experience, for over a year, every VS flight I took was consistently delayed. Their dispatch reliability and punctuality seems to have improved since then.

The MAN/LGW fleet seems to be worked particularly hard at the moment, but I don't think it's that VS "don't care" about the B&S routes, as they must be a serious revenue earner for VS, it's just that they are having to make the best of the resources available.

Mike
#172979 by p17blo
28 May 2007, 19:18
Originally posted by mike-smashing

The MAN/LGW fleet seems to be worked particularly hard at the moment, but I don't think it's that VS "don't care" about the B&S routes, as they must be a serious revenue earner for VS, it's just that they are having to make the best of the resources available.

Mike


And in response to willd who made a similar comment.

VS have control over which aircraft are deployed where. They have already re-spec an LHR aircraft as LGW and they could do more if they wished to alleviate the problems.

So this does actually prove it all the more that VS don't care about this route.

Paul
#172980 by AlanA
28 May 2007, 19:45
I am with Paul on this one.
You could call it the Flyglobespan effect, where you increase the destinations without the fleet to cover it.
This problem is of Virgins making and is in their hands to recover, but time has shown they don't have the inclination. Its only Holidaymakers right?
The sad fact is that the B & S routes are being used as a second class service so that the buisness routes do not suffer. the problem is that the Virgin branding is being diminished as many more people will complain on web sites about poor service/timings on the B & S routes because it is their possibly only flight of the year to their holibobs. Add to this the increasing Virgin Holidays complaints on the same web sites and people associate "Virgin" as a poor travel agent.
When My Travel, FCA, etc are getting better customer satisfaction reports and more and more people are saying that Virgin Economy flights are no better than TCD but TCD are £X cheaper you have a problem in the making. But it will be alright won't it? Virgin Economy seats will eventually be replaced on the B & S routes at the end of the fleet refurbishments, last to be done are they not?? hell, they might then even get the old by then V Port if they are lucky, but probably not.
#172981 by Pete
28 May 2007, 19:48
AlanA,

It sounds like you've already made your choice to switch to charter airlines.
#172985 by AlanA
28 May 2007, 20:13
Originally posted by Pete
AlanA,

It sounds like you've already made your choice to switch to charter airlines.


Yes, thats why I fly the Virgin LGW routes to MCO (No tongue in cheek smily available!)

But to be serious, the tenouous hold that Virgin now have for me is that I can get flat bed Buisness just slightly cheaper than BA with Virgin Charter. IF a Charter airline had the same cabin as BA/VS etc, and flew during the winter schedules, then would I switch??? Probably, and theyare getting closer. They have beaten VS in economy on the B & S routes with bigger seat pitch, they are snapping at PE heels with their premium cabins.
Price is what my loyalty now comes down to.
VS used to be so far ahead of other scheduled airlines, far into the distance against charter airlines, but they have lost that huge advantage, by sleeping on the job it seems.
On other forums I still defend VS, but it is getting harder to do as they seem not to want to innovate any more.
#172997 by Pete
28 May 2007, 21:17
It may be deja vu, but I'm sure I've had this conversation before ;)

If price is your *only* factor, then Virgin aren't going to win; but with so many other factors to consider (Flying Club, Clubhouse and Upper Class) the comparison is always apples to oranges.
#173002 by p17blo
28 May 2007, 21:29
Originally posted by Pete
If price is your *only* factor, then Virgin aren't going to win; but with so many other factors to consider (Flying Club, Clubhouse and Upper Class) the comparison is always apples to oranges.

Did you not just read everything above?

I actually get the point you are trying make Pete and it is a good thing that VS offer these service as if they didn't I don't even think they would come close.

BA offer a club lounge which the only thing missing is hot food, Flat Beds in J class so I think we can compare BA to VS, however what isn't right is that VS seem to be abusing the hold they have over charters to offer a second rate service.

And to my original point, what people are complaining about here is not the price, the facilities, the flat beds, the lounges; it is the general and overall service which includes timeliness.

BA and VS could be playing a precarious game as at present these are the only two schedule airline who fly some of the routes, however, once open skies is in place they could quickly and easily be knocked off their pillars. So, as they know this is possible, why aren't they acting now?

Yes we have had this discussion several times before, but the problem never changes - To be honest I am really looking forward to my forthcoming trip in Y to see how the service is. I am kind of expecting the worse but hoping for the best.

Paul
#173007 by Pete
28 May 2007, 21:49
Originally posted by p17blo
Originally posted by Pete

BA offer a club lounge which the only thing missing is hot food, Flat Beds in J class so I think we can compare BA to VS.


Have you seen those new Club World seats? Looks like they were made in a time-warp. I though the sidewalls were Bakelite when I first clocked them...
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