VS Cabin Crew Pay Dispute

[preiffer]

So, "take home" for a junior member of cabin crew = £1,500. For a senior member of crew, around £1,800-£1,900.

Add on the income tax & NI contributions that have been taken off to get to the "take home pay" means a junior member of staff hits the equivalent of around £25-28k PA, a senior member the equivalent of £29-33k.

Hmm... While I have a great deal of sympathy for what the crew sometimes have to go through, unless I've missed something it's not THAT bad a salary in the grand scheme of things. [:?][?]

[Scrooge]

Originally posted by Denzil
Fair to include sector pay, but down route allowance is exactly that & shouldn't be seen as extra pay!!

Why not, it is pay, when I travel for work I do not get extra pay.

So if you had to go & work in New York for 2 days your company just pay's for the hotel, no per diems???? Basically that's what the allowances are & they aren't great.

"Also of course you have the 7 free flights on the VS network", these are subload/stand by tickets so are of limited use to many people.

To quote VITB "There is much more to this who dispute than what meets the the public eye" & unless the full pay package is discussed & clearly understood it's hard to compare with a normal 9-5/Mon-Fri job.

[Pete]

Originally posted by Denzil
So if you had to go & work in New York for 2 days your company just pay's for the hotel, no per diems???? Basically that's what the allowances are & they aren't great.

Last time I worked for someone else, they were based in Boston. My job often involved flying over there, but they would ensure I flew over a weekend so I could take advantage of cheaper flights stopping over on a Saturday night, and they could made sure the travelling bit was done in my time (at weekends), not theirs. Never got paid any extra for travelling, or had days in lieu for the weekends I lost. Come to think of it, they were cheap bastards. However, as I understand it, it goes on all the time in all sorts of businesses. The perk is being in another country for the weekend, and I'd guess that's a big reason why cabin crew want to sign up (let's face it, they can't do it for the money!)

Pete

When speaking with the IFBT on my last flight, she said her working days (excl. downtime) were around ~3-4 per month. I immediately thought - very few working days = mediocre pay. However, when asked if she did any other work (being a beautician), the answer was no, on 2 counts: she didn't need to, and she was always tired.

I can't vouch for her financial position, but on the basis of her work load this hinted to the fact that the pay was OK... [?]

[any VS staff on here - keep up the good work - I love flying Virgin!!]

Originally posted by Scrooge

Originally posted by Denzil
Fair to include sector pay, but down route allowance is exactly that & shouldn't be seen as extra pay!!

Why not, it is pay, when I travel for work I do not get extra pay.

Is down route allowance tax free ... I thought I recalled talking to a VS FA once about this and that was the case?

Whether it's pay or not, it's certainly part of the package.

Crossing my fingers for no strike and all discussions resolved.

I dont think its fair for those who dont work as crew for VS to pass judgement on what we a fighting for. Yes you will have an opinion but unless you have done our job and lived off our wages then you wont be in possesion of the full picture. VS have many crew who have stuck with them as they love their jobs and the company, however this dosnt pay your bills and cover the rising costs of a mortgage or commuting. You also have to consider that we are based in London so our wages should also reflect the cost of living there. A cabin crew member earns about 900 after tax - sometimes more but can be less than that! This figure includes all our flight pay and commission. Downroute allowances can add up to 400-450 on an average month but we have to buy our food & drink in hotels out of this - it is classified as expenses which most companies pay when you travel for business purposes. Yes the wages arent the worst but I think all of you would find it had to live on 900 a month? We are trying to get what we deserve if you dont agree that we are worth more then thats your opinion but i think we are.

Can I look at this from another industries perspective?

I work (worked at the moment!) in the UK manufacturing industry essentially allied to the automotive manufacturing base.
In the past two years the company i worked for the whole workforce has not had a pay rise whatsoever, with the shop floor workers being paid the UK minimum wage. They have a total of 20 days holiday per year, of which 15 were assigned by the company.
Why did they accept these conditions? because being based in Wolverhampton there are no other jobs to go to in manufacturing.
The cost of employing a worker in the UK is around £10.75 on mimimum wage, the cost of a similar worker in Hungary and eastern europe is Û5. Guess where the jobs are going in manufacturing.

They would have been very happy with a 2% pay rise instead of the 10% redundancies.

I see that the teachers union is after a 10% increase in the basic salary of teachers, amounting to £3,000

The Postal workers are striking over changes in job conditions, burying their heads to the fact that postal services have changed somewhat.

Different industries have different ways of looking at the current economic situation within the UK it seems.

In Spain, they have seen a dramatic reduction this year in visitors, essentially from the UK, Germany and France, which they are thinking is because the people from these countries have less money to spend this year with concerns about interest rates, job security and higher costs of living overall.

Are the VS staff right in going on strike for more pay at a time of industry reductions and higher overhead costs with a slowing down economy? I don't know only they can answer that question.

NS, that doesn't sound correct, even on part time contract you would be rostered 9 days work a month (of which only 4 nights would be downtime away from base).

Quick question why do people choose to fly VS?? If the crew & the service they provide is in your top 5 reasons, how do you think they should be paid in comparison to your second/third choice airlines??? Seperate thread raised to discuss ( http://www.v-flyer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19832 ).

Originally posted by Denzil
NS, that doesn't sound correct, even on part time contract you would be rostered 9 days work a month (of which only 4 nights would be downtime away from base).

I may have not remembered correctly, but am 75% sure that's what they said... 4 flying days?

Nevertheless, she was an excellent IFBT who seemed interested in conversing and gave a good hand massage

When VS are on top form they're unbeatable [y]

[Scrooge]

Just to be clear, I am all for the staff getting what they can, however one thing I would like to point out is that the airline business is very cyclical, airlines are moving to trying to stop these cycles of boom or bust from happening, part of this is not giving out the huge raises that airlines seem to love to give during the boom years then snatching them back during the bust years.

What I would love to see is a profit sharing scheme, this is the fairest way to reward all employee's, of course getting a 100% honest statement from management at any company can be tricky at times.

Originally posted by Denzil
Sadly VITB it does go on & you must be blind to miss it!!!!! As for spilling beans, who let slip to The Mail??

I am a CSS and I don't aften fly with crew who are involved with each other. Yes you sometimes do get crew who are going out with each other but they don't fly together on every flight so if the performance monitering was better when flying with their partner and not the same when flying with someone that was not involved it would get picked up and a stop would be put to it.

I can tell you though I am not blind and I am very aware of what goes on around me and also the company that I work for. Not sure if you work for VS or not?

It was either a crew member who let it slip to the papers or the union. Which should not have happened. We do have some crew are not intrested in anything apart from being militant.

2% sounds pretty pants to me whatever anyones opinion is about someones job, no wonder some crew are not as bubbly as they appeared to be when I first started flying with Virgin.

There was a time when unions held everyone to ransom with strike threats, but it has to be said the we will pay you peanuts or we go bust and you lose your job threat is used a little too much as well these days by the other side.

If VA can afford to take over the world with new planes ( and space ships ) I think they can afford a 5% offer with a few perks to retain their quality staff members.

The plot thickens, wouldn't want to be the one to upset VITB by letting anything slip, though if you fancy pprune or cabincrew you might find out!!!!

[preiffer]

I believe this is the thread Denzil is referring to.

It's sad to see it come to this stage, although I can see both sides of the arguement.

A 2% rise is rubbish (I guess I would have to say that after Miss Hewitt decided on giving us it)but turning up to work no matter how many hours or days you work knowing that your company or organisation is increasing your pay below inflation and meaning even your basics are effectively more expensive is completely disheartening. The fact is that when we fly either for leisure or business we always expect to be treated well, it's a service industry. And from experience at work (not just on our pay rises though) feeling undervalued really kills your morale, the teams morale and yeh you guess it ultimately reflects on your experience.

I agree 2% is a not a great rise....but lets hope a deal is struck as I fly on the 24th August.....would hate to delay my flight [:I]

But 2% is still a rise.
Many people are getting no rise whatsoever and are expected to pay for everyone else's rises.

I chatted about this to a crew member on the VS046 last night during our taxi delay at JFK (seperate post). It turns out this FA, who was professional, efficient and fabulous I have to say, had come to VS from BA to try something different. Well without going into the politics of it all she said that feelings are high, that they're looking at BA where she said at least they're getting 4% of 'something' this year, and that she and others are looking at moving (back) to BA as a result.

That would be a great shame, the crew have my sympathy and I hope they feel more valued soon.

[Scrooge]

In the end, if the pay is not enough and you can make more money doing the same job somewhere else I would not blame or point a finger at anyone for jumping ship, you have to do what is right for you, forget anyone else.

Aside from the rights and wrongs of the potential dispute, what would be the practical impact for the travelling passenger. I've been considering taking advantage of the sale to do an three night LHR - BOS trip. Timing wise (school holidays, after the Less Favoured One's GCSE results) this has to be over the Bank Holiday.

If I bought the tickets and there was industrial action, what is the situation particularly where a delay would make the trip untenable ? Is it simply caveat emptor?

I know there's probably some more brinkmanship and negotiating to come, but if anyone has any experiences / information they could share that would help me to a decision, I'd be grateful.

Thx

Paul

[preiffer]

Insurance policies NORMALLY have the following exception, speicifcally stated:

...claims arising from delay caused by strike if strike or industrial action, if the strike or industrial action was notified at the time the insurance was purchased.

Now, whether this would be classed as "notification" (I think not), is up for debate - but they should cover you if it is unexpected. From VS' point of view, I BELIEVE they'd be likely to re-accomodate you on another carrier asap.

However, with the volume of people affected, don't expect to be going anywhere near your original time (or date!) if that does happen.

The fact that it's being discussed on here & other website forums would make you hope that it won't come to this, i'm confident that 99% of the staff just want to carry on with their jobs & not strike. The ball is firmly placed with the VS management!!!!

99% of the staff just want to carry on with their jobs & not strike.

Not sure where the above came from but it not so true.

[preiffer]

VITB, I *think* Denzil's sentiment was that most staff don't want it to come to a strike.

They'd like it settled fairly, with no disruption to their jobs or passenger's lives.

(That'd be my hope, anyway...)




It's an interesting use of the phrase "ball is firmly placed with the VS management", however - in EFFECTIVE negotiations, there's no "ball", just reasoned argument and agreement...