This is the main V-Flyer Forum for general discussion of everything related to flying with Virgin-branded travel companies.
#21899 by frangipan
09 Nov 2007, 11:28
Annoyingly, I booked a trip to New York to visit relatives over Christmas. Now, there seems a good chance that the trip will be scuppered. I hadn't logged into this site for some time, but did so after booking; I noticed the huge thread about the possible upcoming strike.

When I last logged in here, people were discussing the poor quality of the UC Scrooge Pack. I posted a comment about how it was not the specific petty issue of the pack's content that was significant, but what it told us about the short-sighted, penny-pinching idiocy of the current management. Well, now it seems that this banal management's chickens have come home to roost: through lack of care in alienating its best staff and in failing to moderate its worst (and in hiring them in the first place).

Over the last few years, the seething resentment amidst certain cabin crew has become obvious. Some of this is justified, but some is not. Some old hands are upset by the cutbacks, and believe they cannot offer the service they once could, and feel that the airline has estranged them from their calling. That is fair enough. But that estrangement goes all the way to management, who no longer seem to understand the sort of people whom they should hire, and are taking young, shallow children, basically, and throwing them into the economy cabin. A very vicious circle. On a recent flight, a number of the worst examples of crew were gossiping loudly in the galley about how they had just come back from clubbing, had had no sleep, were exhausted and could barely see straight. The tenure of the conversation suggested that this was par for the course on this particular route. So much for highly trained professionals whose primary duty is the safety of the passengers!

Of course, not all crew are like this. The best care enough about their jobs and their charges that they even post here, and are delightful, caring people. But even some of these wonderful people are in denial about the fact that some (maybe now many) of their colleagues are letting the side down in a massive way. I include the patent woeful management in these colleagues. They have a short-term perception of good loads and profits. Their soft-service cutbacks, they think, have been an unalloyed success. Their rose-tinted glasses have failed to notice how the canaries in the mine - their most loyal passengers who post to fora like this - have noticed that not all is right in the state of Virgin. Bubbling beneath the cheeky posters and fantastic new features like the Heathrow UC Wing is a family of staff now verging on dysfunctional.

As for the particulars of the wage claim: I personally would not work for the wages paid to cabin crew. But then, I wouldn't apply for the job! The attitude of the crew seems to be like the attitude of people who live near Heathrow and are constantly complaining about the noise of aircraft: you knew that when you moved in, and nobody is forcing you to stay there! People are not indentured into cabin slavery. They may leave their job or the industry, and seek riches elsewhere. Sorry to be Adam Smithian about it, but nobody *deserves* a particular salary. When people say things like "we deserve this" and "we deserve that", they're missing the point: you get the pay the market can get away with paying you. If you don't like it, you stick two fingers up to your employers and find better ones. If you cannot find better ones, then it seems that the market cannot support your dreams. Sorry. Life is tough like that. But even then, not all is lost: if the management continue to pay the sort of wages that only attract the above-mentioned callow "children", then the product will suffer the consequences, and either go under, or pay more to attract more experienced, discerning crew.

What about sticking two finger to your employer by striking? This probably will not work, because this is a highly customer-facing, brand-conscious, competitive service industry. Imagining that a strike will *solve* anything is like imagining a massive fistfight between siblings is solved by giving one a lollipop and sending the other to his room. Yes, the fight has ended, but that which led to it is in no sense solved. The resentment and the disunity is there more than ever.

Virgin Atlantic as a brand cannot extricate itself from a messy bout of industrial action easily. That throwback to the 70s is, in the public mind, the purview of brands like British Airways - old, established, dowdy, industrial - and not "fresh", eleganty, breezy brands like VS. If this strike action happens and spills into the front pages, then Virgin will have lost its virginity, so to speak. Nobody expects Virgin to have its own winter of discontent. Many people will have a sudden reevaluation of the brand if it does, for the worst.

Personally, the brand's magic is already pretty much gone for me, so much as I wish that it weren't. It is difficult to remain sympathetic to the smiley, breezy brand When I read the strike discussion fora. The utter contempt that some cabin crew have for passengers taints the whole experience. Those sort of people not only don't deserve a payrise, they don't deserve a job in a customer-facing service industry. Sure, it may well be that BA crew have a similar contempt, but at least they seem these days to be able to disguise it more efficiently, and to offer consistent service, as I discovered on a recent BA flight, which was excellent. I know I'm not the only one making such discoveries which, a few years ago, would have been unthinkable.T he management and crew of VS had better wake up to the possible disaster to their brand that this internecine bickering evinces.
#190188 by iforres1
09 Nov 2007, 12:24
Can't find much wrong with that[y]

But I am sure others may have there own views;)

Iain
#190191 by jaguarpig
09 Nov 2007, 12:55
I have to agree with you, as one who jumped the VS ship a couple of years ago,the UC flights I took earlier this year reaffirmed it was the right decision switching to BA.
#190200 by FlyCC
09 Nov 2007, 14:00
Over the last few years, the seething resentment amidst certain cabin crew has become obvious. Some of this is justified, but some is not. Some old hands are upset by the cutbacks, and believe they cannot offer the service they once could, and feel that the airline has estranged them from their calling. That is fair enough. But that estrangement goes all the way to management, who no longer seem to understand the sort of people whom they should hire, and are taking young, shallow children, basically, and throwing them into the economy cabin. A very vicious circle.


[y][y]
#190203 by willd
09 Nov 2007, 14:42
I have only just quickly read this as I am in a rush but a very well written post. I would agree with you that the x factor in VS was lost a long time ago. One illustration of this is back in 2000 all customers in Y got a printed menu and Baileys was offered after the meal service. Now of course this is a PE privilege. It was those sort of little things that made VS stand out IMHO.

I will keep flying the airline for now but many in my immediate family have given up hope. My parents have got fed up with the inconsistency in levels of service and been tempted by the "better" product on other carriers. Sure they are FC members but the unused miles havent kept them, they have now decided on their forthcoming RTW trip to do it on BA/QF/CX. The sad thing is that they were both loyal VS customers who 2 years ago would have never thought of going with the dark side. I wonder how many others, on this site and the general public at large, have already done the same or will be following them to terminal five at LHR?!
#190205 by catsilversword
09 Nov 2007, 15:16
Goodness frangipan, quite a diatribe! I couldn't help but find myself agreeing with much of your post, though I'd thought that my similar thoughts were possibly just based on me becoming a grumpy old woman! Perhaps not so....I've also realised recently that my loyalty to the Virgin brand is slipping, sadly. Where I used to have faith in most things with the Virgin brand, I now find I feel a degree of doubt and cynicism - and wonder how much of both my perception and the reality is to do with Richard himself having less and less to do with things? We can only speculate.
#190208 by firsttimer
09 Nov 2007, 15:25
Great post and I agree with everything you have said.

I have flown Virgin for many years now as a leisure traveller, starting off in economy, then Premium for the last few years and now UC (first flight last December). I have noticed a definite decline in service, I know you can get good/bad crew on every airline, but it seems that Virgin certainly has it's fair share of rotten apples(I apologise to those crew members who are the exception, you guys are what Virgin used to be all about). I am supposed to be looking forward to my upcoming holiday and, despite reassurances from some fantastic v-flyer members (including crew), I can't help myself but be very worried about my trip - i.e. will the plane be cancelled, if it isn't, what's the service going to be like, etc., etc. I sent an email to Virgin expressing my concerns last week and I still have not had the courtesy of a reply.

Virgin really needs to take a long hard look at itself and see what it can do to rectify the situation.

I have another trip coming up next year and at this moment in time am very seriously considering switching to another carrier.
#190210 by clayts
09 Nov 2007, 15:33
Quality post.... If Carlsberg did posts...
#190211 by catsilversword
09 Nov 2007, 15:37
Originally posted by GrinningJackanapes
Originally posted by catsilversword
Goodness frangipan, quite a diatribe!


If diatribe is, as defined in the dictionary, a bitter and abusive speech or writing, or an ironic or satirical criticism, I'm not sure this qualifies. This is a very balanced, rather dispassionate exposition of frangy's feelings and perceptions. [:?]

GJ


Thanks for the dictionary definition and apologies for my misuse!
#190231 by andrew.m.wright
09 Nov 2007, 21:25
For me it's now about the level of service I'm receiving or not as the case maybe.

On Monday I flew to Orlando in Premium Economy.

No priority boarding at Gatwick, no working IFE at my seat. To be fair the crew tried to fix it but to no avail.

Then to add insult to injury I ended up with an Economy Main Meal as the Premium Economy food had run out by the time the trolley got to me.

Least priority bag claim worked at Orlando.


My loyalty is wearing thin ... I've travelled with Virgin since 1994, but 3 Virgin flights this year have had problems with IFE not working, and food issues.

My loyalty will be even thinner once I've redeemed by 100K miles in the New Year.
#190232 by RichardMannion
09 Nov 2007, 21:46
That is a great post!

Just wanted to add some different perspective - I too was getting very dismayed with the strike situation, and even more so the level of disdain and contempt a number of staff were displaying towards customers on various public forums. I have had some crap sectors this year that were an absolute disgrace to Virgin.

I raised some of my issues to management at VS earlier this week, and is it so happened I was down at the office in Crawley on Wednesday doing some work. I was able to sit down and spend some time going through the issues with a director and to be honest it was a very eye opening experience. Ever heard the phras 'there are always 2 sides to a story?' - well never has this been any truer. I can't go in to too much detail, but I walked away from the meeting feeling very confident that things were going to improve. There was all round hoensty, and they aren't sat there in ivory towers thinking all is wonderful on the contrary to be honest - they have a good idea what is wrong, and a plan of strategy. Let's not forget that some of this will take time to sort out, it's not an overnight thing.

Our next few flights are with BA, and it will be interestign to see how there services compare. To be honest though, there is a good possibility that I will go back to VS:

a) I will miss the bar in Upper :)
b) I can't quite bring myself to have to pay for a haircut [:p]
c) I felt really valued as a customer after the meeting

A true measure of service for me, is if something does go wrong, how the other party reacts and deals with the issue.

Thanks,
Richard
#190240 by sickbag
10 Nov 2007, 01:15
My family and I have always used virgin to the states every year for the last 14 years. Last 4-5 years noticed the decline in service (but always gave them another go, thinking the poor service might have been an exception and the fact we seemed to accumilate enough miles for at least 1 of our tickets each time). We stopped recommending them about 4 years ago. Cancelled the credit card so as not to earn any more miles and be tempted again.

Funny thing was our outbound flight last year was the usual poor service. We were expecting even worse when they announced on the inbound flight that they were flying with minimum crew. BUT.... how wrong we were. The inbound flight was the best we'd had by far with respect to drinks/meal service etc.

I guess when they have a full crew they feel they have time to sit around and have a chatter amongst themselves!

Anyway, this Christmas is going to be our very last flight with virgin (after a 14 year tradition).
#190242 by frangipan
10 Nov 2007, 01:52
Well, Richard, you speak hopefully there (heh - I just noticed I used 'hopefully' in the correct way for the first time in years). I guess the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. I just hope it's christmas pudding :-)

I agree that the mettle of any organisation is not how it handles things when they go well, but when they go wrong. I always tell my potential customers "If you become our customer, then one day, as in any human relationship we're going to screw up: I hope that the moments immediately after this will prove how good we actually are". If Virgin are admitting the problems and outlining a credible, non soft-soap way out of them, then this is good news for a brand one's instinct is to enjoy.
#190245 by mogmog
10 Nov 2007, 05:45
Originally posted by RichardMannion
Our next few flights are with BA, and it will be interestign to see how there services compare. To be honest though, there is a good possibility that I will go back to VS:

a) I will miss the bar in Upper :)
b) I can't quite bring myself to have to pay for a haircut [:p]
c) I felt really valued as a customer after the meeting

A true measure of service for me, is if something does go wrong, how the other party reacts and deals with the issue.

Thanks,
Richard


a) I think that the stand-up bar on a VS flight is about as relevant as the piano was on the earlier PanAm jumbos. In this day and age of "better" travel being all about sleeping well, dining light, drinking moderately and pre-dining if possible, the bar may well soon be a reason NOT to travel on VS. It might as well be better used as an internet cubicle or two.

b) A haircut before a flight? From an unknown hairdresser?

c) As far as being valued as a customer after a meeting is concerned, what cogent tangible value did you achieve other than a few good words, if I could ask.

Personally, for me, out of India, it is the schedules, the space and the connections. As well as the fare, the condition of the aircraft and most of all safety. For everything else, I can carry my own light vegetarian food and drinking water and ask for a clean plate and glass. (though I do not uderstand how VS instructs its crews to drink 2 litres per flight but can not and will not provide passengers with the same, am going to take that up with DGCA here that pax boarding from India on any airliner need a minimum of so much free water on board as well as guaranteed veggie food . . . )

Finally, I do not think it is a tainted airline. VS selection of movies and music is excellent, though they could work on improving the IFE. And most of all, there is always the chance that the crew you get on board is a wonderful cohesive unit.

Though the BCAS in India is now running random breathalyser checks on cockpit as well as cabin crew and . . .
#190252 by jaguarpig
10 Nov 2007, 10:21
In this day and age of "better" travel being all about sleeping well, dining light, drinking moderately and pre-dining if possible, the bar may well soon be a reason NOT to travel on VS.

Thats my idea of one hellish flight:D



b) A haircut before a flight? From an unknown hairdresser?

The same hairdresser at the LHR CH cut Mrs JPs hair for 3 years,he was Nicky Clarke trained and she says was the best stylist she has ever encountered.He was one of the main reasons VS kept getting another chance,pity he left.
#190257 by Darren Wheeler
10 Nov 2007, 11:00
Personally I think VS is settling into a middle-aged dip. When first launched, it was fresh and promised so much and over the years has delivered. With that comes a tendency to think they will always be top of the heap.

Ok, there have been innovations such as the CH, the UCS's and V-Port but at the expense of the core product. Namely, service on-board and lack of effective management at 36'000'(an observation, not a dig).

The same happens with any big business. Just look at Apple. When it was launched it was seen as young, funky and going against the establishment (MS etc.) But look at it now. The products are still innovative but look how they are trying to stiffle 3rd party development of applications and accessories for iPods and the iPhone.

VS need to take a long, hard look at the product and see how it it can regain lost ground or it might get overtaken by something like Ryan-Atlantic.....

I'll still be using Virgin for my T/A flights as I have yet to have an experience that makes me want to switch. I hope I never do either.
#190262 by firsttimer
10 Nov 2007, 12:21
Originally posted by RichardMannion
I raised some of my issues to management at VS earlier this week, and is it so happened I was down at the office in Crawley on Wednesday doing some work. I was able to sit down and spend some time going through the issues with a director and to be honest it was a very eye opening experience. Ever heard the phras 'there are always 2 sides to a story?' - well never has this been any truer. I can't go in to too much detail, but I walked away from the meeting feeling very confident that things were going to improve. There was all round hoensty, and they aren't sat there in ivory towers thinking all is wonderful on the contrary to be honest - they have a good idea what is wrong, and a plan of strategy. Let's not forget that some of this will take time to sort out, it's not an overnight thing.


That sounds very encouraging.

This whole service/strike thing is getting so nasty, I see a crew member (I'm assuming it's a crew member by the nature of their post) has now posted on a Disney forum attacking a member on their views about the potential strike and hoping they get caught up in any strike action. That is downright horrible. [V]
#190263 by Denzil
10 Nov 2007, 12:21
If ever a post should be read by VS Management, this is the one!!!! Listen to those that pay their way. It would appear that some of the basic "Virgin Flair" has flown away in recent years!!!!
#190293 by ofarvoo
10 Nov 2007, 16:07
Fanstastic post and really sums well what alot of people currently seem to think

My comment.... who convinced Richard Branson to become Chairman and take a back seat.... BAD IDEA

I know we need to tackle global warming and send people into space....BUT Richard Branson it is time to remember where all this started...... get back in there and show the management the value of what you created before its destroyed

:-)
#190298 by miopyk
10 Nov 2007, 16:29
I think we're all in the same boat here, we want to believe that VS will improve but all the evidence seems to be stacking up in the other direction. I like many here spend my own money with VS which equates to somewhere around £6K a year over the last 4 years. Not a fortune but enough to make my choice of carrier important. We used be AA customers and switched to VS after a couple of bad flights and now we're thinking of changing to BA with whom we have booked some shorthaul flights next year.

Sometimes business have to have a bad time to make them wake up and do what's right to get back on track and sometimes businesses don't survive because management and staff are beyond change.

In my world, change and progress are an every day requirement in order to stay ahead of the competition. It seems to me that VS are still relying on customer loyalty rather than innovation to deliver success and when the realise this isn't working anymore it'll be to late as the customers will have already gone elsewhere.

This is also reflected in the way they have allowed their industrial relations to get out of hand. Good staff are worth their weight in gold and while there are limits, keeping them happy has a positive impact on customers choosing your airline over someone else next time around. Conversly employing poor quality staff will have an adverse impact on customer satisfaction and subsequent losses. This isn't rocket science but seems beyond VS management.

As for me I wouldn't have considered flying with anyone else over the pond a couple of years ago but almost booked BA to Jamaica last week. However, I couldn't quite bring myself to do it. Next time though it could happen and to abuse that old saying "once we've gone, we've gone"

Miopyk[8D]
#190368 by mas66
11 Nov 2007, 00:29
A very interesting post and topic.

For a number of years most of my long haul flights have been with VS because they were the prefered carrier of my previous employer. Having nothing else to compare with for so long I had almost lost sight of how inconsistant the service had become.

Having recently changed jobs, I have now had the opportunity of flying with BA on a number of occasions and make no secret of how impressed I have been with these flights and the service I received.

Whilst reading what Richard has said about his meeting is encouraging, I would ask the question 'what incentive is there for the travelling public to remain loyal to Virgin while they sort things out'.

I now have some degree of choice where to place my business travel, I always have a choice where to place my leisure travel and whilst I will never disregard VS I will always think seriously about other alternatives.

My recent flights to and from Hong Kong are a typical example (without drifting into a TR) Outbound was in UC and whilst there was nothing drastically wrong, I felt as though I was part of a mission to 'get the pax to sleep in record time' It was all so rushed and impersonal... need I say more. The only saving grace was a very charming IFBT with whom I had a very long chat in the early hours about all sorts. The return was in PE (which I have to say is a great product for leisure travel) again nothing drastic, a very charming mainly female HKG/china ? based crew with excellent service. Spoilt by a very loud, camp FSM who for extended periods was taking the piss out of the way the other girls were speaking whilst he was in the galley. I also witnessed what can only be described as the bitchy (almost bullying) behaviour of one particular young english female crew towards her chinese colleagues. This will actually be subject of a letter to VS by me.

Recently, my very short sighted reason for travelling with VS has been to keep my Gold FC status, which I have to say is almost worthless now to me, my intention now is build status with BA and see what happens from then on.

Cheers

Mark:D
#190376 by VS045
11 Nov 2007, 09:07
a very charming mainly female HKG/china ? based crew with excellent service


That's very often the case flying with HKG/Tokyo crews and even DXB.

45.
#190466 by virginadam
11 Nov 2007, 23:46
I recently left VS as CC because of the poor money, work conditions and, well, lets not get too into all that on this thread! But I have to admit more and more of the time on trips you would see fellow crew members sitting about not doing much, b*tching and whining, and one or two crew members running about like headless chickens trying to make happy the hundreds of pax onboard...

The problem solely lies with management if you ask me, if they appreciated, paid and supported crew more, rather than undervaluing and underpaying them, then crew MIGHT just feel more loyal and willing to make more effort...

I feel sad that the company I'd given my heart and soul for in the beginning, just didnt keep me interested in staying loyal... I'm back now into a profession that pays double the wage and just as much time off! I do miss the staff discounts though... hehe.

I really hope things change back to how they were...
#190481 by 2Tinks
12 Nov 2007, 11:51
Originally posted by andrew.m.wright
For me it's now about the level of service I'm receiving or not as the case maybe.

On Monday I flew to Orlando in Premium Economy.

No priority boarding at Gatwick, no working IFE at my seat. To be fair the crew tried to fix it but to no avail.

Then to add insult to injury I ended up with an Economy Main Meal as the Premium Economy food had run out by the time the trolley got to me.

Least priority bag claim worked at Orlando.


My loyalty is wearing thin ... I've travelled with Virgin since 1994, but 3 Virgin flights this year have had problems with IFE not working, and food issues.

My loyalty will be even thinner once I've redeemed by 100K miles in the New Year.






I've had the food problem on our last 3 flights as we always sit in rows 78 and 79 (MAN-MCO). One FA did make me an UC meal when I refused the only PE option of shrimp though. VA's response when I complained was for me to pre-order a special meal. [:(!]

We flew back on 'Pretty Woman' on Saturday and I was saddened at the state of the plane. The smoke alarm in the toilet had to be disconnected by an engineer before take off, the right hand side of the cabin had flickering lights and the left hand side of the cabin had to have the lights on all night, making it impossible to sleep. Only one speaker was working at the front of the cabin, so sitting at the back we didn't hear a single announcement, nor could we hear the safety announcement. DH's entertainment system had no audio unless he pushed and held the earphones in the socket. DD's screen kept flickering then turning off so we had to keep pressing the audio, then video buttons to switch it back on.

Priority baggage worked at MCO, but not at MAN, our bags were almost last off.

We feel we're not valued as customers and don't really matter flying the B&S route. On average we take 3 return PE flights a year for 4 of us, so we're probably of no significance to VS. We have 1 more flight already booked with them, but after that we'll be looking at other carriers, we've already lost confidence in Virgin.
#190495 by VS-EWR
12 Nov 2007, 14:34
I have to say it's very sad reading posts such as these, despite the good news LROM seemed to indicate in his post. I haven't flown VS for a couple years now so it's difficult to judge its current situation at all, but my last flight was on BA in WT+ and it was very memorable. My family will probably still end up going with price rather than product, however VS doesn't seem to be leading in that front either!
Virgin Atlantic

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 88 guests

Itinerary Calendar