Cabin Crew Pay Update *2nd NOV*

Originally posted by AlanA
Why should they be taken off?
All Local government workers pay negotiations are public knowledge, why do certain Virgin staff want to hide the offer? especially as its BETTER than many other workers are being offered across the country?

Because err we pay for local government through tax, VA is a private company.

quote:
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Originally posted by AlanA

Why should they be taken off?
All Local government workers pay negotiations are public knowledge, why do certain Virgin staff want to hide the offer? especially as its BETTER than many other workers are being offered across the country?


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Because err we pay for local government through tax, VA is a private company.

And we don't pay VS???

45.

[Decker]

People who fly VS do - this is a public board not limited to those who fly VS. Though you raise an interesting point - would you be happy for your pay details to be posted on a board that only your customers can read? Or a more public one where anyone can read?

'"Why should they not be assessed against other workers from outside the industry? or are you saying that Cabin crew deserve better pay rates than nurses or Police officers

This is where a forum like V-flyer comes into its own....its a melting pot of passionate crew and people who know alot about the industry....(and alot of people who think they know alot about the industry) at the end of the day the pay deal is about Virgin Atlantic Cabin Crew fighting for what they feel is right, not passengers, not engineers, not flight crew, not gold card holders...its about the crew...they feel they have had a bum deal for a good while now...this is the first time they have had the courage to say something and stand against what they perceive rubbish offers from management. I think its great for comments from other people to come in, give their opinion etc...but to be honest it aint gonna mean a thing to the people who it actually affects...tne comment about crew partying downroute...what do you do on your days off...after all we are only in our home port for maybe 3 days of a week...alot of the time its mon, tue, wed, etc etc...our weekends are downroute alot of them time, why shouldnt we party? is that a reason for us not to fight for a better pay deal? I think not. At the end of the day most of us know what reality is and we aint expecting something out of the ordinary here, but come on managament...dont treat us like idiots!

Gpik, I think almost everyone feels they should be paid more but that doesn't necessarily make their opinions reasonable.

45.

(Please note that I am not necessarily saying that crew should not be paid more/above inflation)

Just a thought, but now probably isn't the best time to be giving out pay increases (above inflation) given the recent economic climate. Both VS and the union should wait to see how the situation turns out. If we head into a recession, the increase will/should be taken away and will simply serve to make things worse for VS.

45.

Before people jump down my neck , this post is not trying to be provocative - but genuinely trying to see what the reaction would be to alternatives......

For a reasonable part of my career I used to rotate through working nights (in a hospital). In the bad old days we used to work a day, then that night, then the following day (IE circa 31 hours consecutively) before getting any proper rest - although we did get to sleep at night if it was quiet. Fortunately that practice was stopped in circa 1990.

The practice now (although I don't partake!!!!) is for somoene to work 8pm to 8am the following morning for 4 consective nights with sleep technically not being allowed during this duty period. Many people prefer this model over any/many others tried as you work 4 nights on then 4 nights off.

So, my question........ What would the reaction of cabin crew be to working a pattern like this - for more money?

Let me use the LHR-JNB route as an example. If cabin crew worked LHR-JNB on Mon night, slept during the day in JNB, then JNB-LHR on Tuesday night, slept during the day in LHR, then LHR-JNB on Wednesday night, slept during the day in JNB and finally JNB to LHR on Thursday night before going off duty for say 4 or 5 full days, this would hugely reduce the cost to Virgin of having crew stationed around the world in hotels etc. It would also give crew loads more time at home as after they had finished their block of flights they would get 4 or 5 full days off. The financial saving to Virgin could then be added in to cabin crew's basic pay (and by my reckoning you would be looking at something like at least an extra £10,000 per annum increase).

Although the above would be legal under European Working Time Directives, I fully accept that there may be CAA rules that don't allow it - anyway, would it be worth an extra £10k???

Ian

Ian, that model always sounds fantastic on paper and for the bean counters. The problem is that to switch your body clock by 12 hours for four days and working 12 or 13 hour shifts is a lot for the body to take.

With this shift system your productivity declines dramatically, then morale and most importantly safety. I'm not alone at the end of night four having to double check everything I've done and forgetting things.

And the bottom line is the three or four days off afterwards isn't rest its recovery on your physical and mental state.

Originally posted by RichardMannion

Originally posted by Denzil
& don't work for an airline.

Have you changed jobs then, or are you masquerading again?

I know plenty of government workers that don't get paid that great wages given the jobs they do. But again, like I said it's a career choice.

No but the pensions quite good

And the VS CC pension is nothing like that of government employees!!!!!

Originally posted by Denzil
And the VS CC pension is nothing like that of government employees!!!!!

What is the pension then?
I bet its better than many get outside the industry and better than those who have seen their pensions dissappear when the companies went bust!

'"What is the pension then?' As it's based only on their basic pay

I dont really understand why most people are against us trying to get a decent wage rise. Yes we were aware what the wages were like when we joined but we all get older and need to pay a mortgage. If anyone can tell me how to live on 900quid a month in London (and still eat) then il be very pleased to vote yes to this deal. As you say the pension is linked to our basic so its not gonna be great... i cant afford to pay into the pension anyway which is another problem!

Originally posted by Denzil
'What is the pension then?' As it's based only on their basic pay, it's obviously poor, which is easy to work out.
'I bet its better than many get outside the industry and better than those who have seen their pensions dissappear when the companies went bust!' So what, they ARE in the airline business & that is the one in which comparisons should be made. Obviously it's better than one that went down the pan with a company, but again is that fair comparison???

You must feel strongly against the CC getting a decent pay rise???? Why???

I am sick to the back teeth of people who when they get a decent pay rise (yes, within their buisness! are you telling me that Easyjet cc for example get more than you? if so, take a job there)
Its the same old story, get into an industry knowing what the pay is then striking to demand more because it suddenly doesn't suit you.
People all over the country are struggling with mortgages, finanace paymenst, less money in their pockets, and no pay rises, not even inflation, yet when you get in poor financial times a good settlement, you still want more.
Who pays for these increases? the poor old worker who has not had a pay rise, now his costs more because you want more.
I suppose you don't remember the seventies when this spiralled with everyone wanting more and more.
Secondly, I work in UK manufacturing, I would expect many VS CC have nothing in their houses produced in this country. Why should I support them getting more than inflation pay rises, when they have bought the cheapest goods going from abroad without the slightest thought for your fellow Britons?
I note someone else is saying they get £900 a month, (£12,000 a year??)does that include the payments for being away from home?
many people in London have less than £900 a month to survive on.
Many people have to travel from outside London to live, that's something you should look at.

[Decker]

According to the report and accounts filed by Virgin Atlantic Ltd, the group's retained profit plunged from £60.3m to £6.6m in the financial year to the end of February.

Full info here

Originally posted by Decker

According to the report and accounts filed by Virgin Atlantic Ltd, the group's retained profit plunged from £60.3m to £6.6m in the financial year to the end of February.

Full info here

OWWWCH! [:#]
Could that be why Singapore are looking to sell?

Originally posted by AlanA

Originally posted by Decker

According to the report and accounts filed by Virgin Atlantic Ltd, the group's retained profit plunged from £60.3m to £6.6m in the financial year to the end of February.

Full info here

OWWWCH! [:#]
Could that be why Singapore are looking to sell?

It may mean any/all of the following:
1) Larger dividends (i.e. a greater percenage of the gross profits) paid to shareholders (e.g. SRB and SQ) this year compared to last year.
2) A greater percentage of gross profit has been reinvested into the company.
3) VS made less profit this year than last year.

As to whether this is a ploy in the current Cabin Crew collective pay negotiations, I don't know.

Mike

A pay-rise with inflation is fine, above perhaps not. Alan's right; people should have thought about the pay when they joined. Having said that, some CC are certainly worthy of a pay-rise. However, others that I'm sure we've all encountered should simply be shown to the door not a larger pay packet. I guess it's that way in all organisations.[:(]

45.

So Alan i guess you won't be flying VS on their foreign built 787's then??

Sorry, but whilst i see some of your argument in regards to the 70's (and yes i do go back that far) it's not the only point with the VS CC problem. They have historically been spun a yarn & some years received less % than other departments & this time it's the small print that is annoying.

As for buying British, my last experience was of a Rover 200 & 400, cracking engines but a pity the rest of the car fell to bits!!!!! One good things is those big donks from Derby & the world loves them!!!!

Would you say the same for Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Land Rover, Rolls Royce, Jaguar, Ford etc. which all have plants in the UK? Anyway, that's pretty irrelevant.

In my mind, a pay-rise (above inf.) is not what is needed; it's a change in the system of pay. As others have said, there needs to be greater emphasis on performance-related pay. That way, there would be a much fairer distribution of pay, with those who work hard getting a better deal without having to subsidise the few who view pax as an inconvenience.

45.

[Decker]

The MAJOR issue with PRP is that it would likely be assessed on peer review and thus would be prone to personality clashes, favouritism etc etc.

'"Honda

'Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Land Rover, Rolls Royce, Jaguar, Ford etc', not a British owned company among them!!!!

No, but the point in question was British manufacturing.

Back on topic, yeah, I guess performance is difficult to measure in the job; not only because 'success' is fairly intangible but all pax have a different perspective on what is acceptable.

Maybe a pay-rise should be coupled with other measures such as further training to make sure the CC's marginal revenue product (is that right?) rises to the new level of pay. BTW, this is most definitely open to criticism as I'm not too sure on the economics of this[:I]

45.

[preiffer]

92% of crew rejected the new deal. Confirmed today.

70%+ of ballot papers were returned.