Cabin Crew Pay Update *2nd NOV*

Oh no, here we go, comparisons of cabin crew with prison officers, police officers, zoo keepers, bar workers, butchers, bakers & candlestick makers!!!

We have just been informed by the union of the following:

To Reject the Company's Offer Ð 92% of all returned ballot papers
To Accept the Company's Offer Ð 8% of all returned ballot papers
70.5% of all ballot papers dispatched were returned

The above signals an overwhelming rejection, and is seen as clear indication that Unite/Amicus members employed by Virgin Atlantic, are prepared to participate in a formal Industrial Action Ballot in pursuit of what they consider to be an acceptable pay award.

Perhaps this isn't so clever in a customer based forum?

There are problems in the ranks. I'll admit that. There needs to be a higher motivation amongst staff members as a whole and not just Cabin Crew. You can get access into the company at eighteen now but that's due to age discrimination laws which all airlines follow across Great Britain. Perhaps that is one of the reasons behind reduced customer service quality but as a young crewmember myself I do my best to brush off any stereotype of the youngest being the least hard working.

I won't share my opinions of voting here because I don't think anyone can truly understand the job we do, even if you are an extreme frequent flyer. This job wrecks relationships, marriages, has a severe strain on our social life and last year I missed Christmas and my birthday - but really, if we didn't enjoy it, we wouldn't do it! This job isn't one where you're in it for the money and you'd slave it out just for the wage. We had a rough idea of what we signed up for when joiningÉ all we're asking for now is respect as our employment continues.

Senior Cabin Crew.

Originally posted by Denzil
Oh no, here we go, comparisons of cabin crew with prison officers, police officers, zoo keepers, bar workers, butchers, bakers & candlestick makers!!!

No, I certainly would not compare cabin crew to Police Officers, Prison officers, Armed Services, Nurses, Doctors, butchers or bakers. Cabin Crew are not in the same league. [:(!]

[ChuckC]

Thanks to our VS crew who are providing information. We certainly appreciate it.

Personally I hope the lack of agreement over a fair compensation package will be resolved short of industrial action. Clearly employees have spoken.

Regards,
Chuck-

[Bazz]

Guys and Gals, please refrain from letting this become personal or degrading into a slanging match. There has been much good discussion in this thread and we are privileged to have the VS staffers here share their thoughts and concerns with us.

I am sure that all of us, including the staffers, would prefer this was settled without the need for industrial action which benefits nobody and inconveniences many. As far as their union executive is concerned, it is their right to take whatever (legal) action their membership deems necessary and we should respect that.

Any staffers wishing to continue the debate in private are reminded that they can do so in the Staff forum.

Smile high,
a situation which happens every day in all areas of work, many who get paid less than you who are not resorting to industrial action do this day in day out.

As for ass kissing, that has been dealt with on another thread where some crews attitude to the people who pay their wages was discussed in length.

You really do appear to have it in for the poor CC Alan, did you apply & get rejected?? And as mentioned, your arrogance & belittling attitude towards their work is quite sad.

Unless you work in the aviation industry you have no understanding of how it works, therefore can't be in a position to compare.

[RichardMannion]

Originally posted by Denzil
You really do appear to have it in for the poor CC Alan, did you apply & get rejected?? And as mentioned, your arrogance & belittling attitude towards their work is quite sad.

Unless you work in the aviation industry you have no understanding of how it works, therefore can't be in a position to compare.

As much as it annoys me as a moderator to say this, but I really can't see this thread playing nicely.

Denzil, yes you're right Alan doesn't work in the aviation industry so what would he know, and how dare he comment on the situation, it's not as if he is a customer and one with a choice of whom to fly is it?

Look, I don't have anything against crew as such - it's a job like any other. Every job has it good points and its bad points. If you feel that the bad points outweigh the good points then maybe it's time to change employer or job. It really is as simple as that.

Thanks,
Richard

Originally posted by RichardMannion

Originally posted by Denzil
You really do appear to have it in for the poor CC Alan, did you apply & get rejected?? And as mentioned, your arrogance & belittling attitude towards their work is quite sad.

Unless you work in the aviation industry you have no understanding of how it works, therefore can't be in a position to compare.

As much as it annoys me as a moderator to say this, but I really can't see this thread playing nicely.

Denzil, yes you're right Alan doesn't work in the aviation industry so what would he know, and how dare he comment on the situation, it's not as if he is a customer and one with a choice of whom to fly is it?

Look, I don't have anything against crew as such - it's a job like any other. Every job has it good points and its bad points. If you feel that the bad points outweigh the good points then maybe it's time to change employer or job. It really is as simple as that.

Thanks,
Richard

Although I'm immensely late in contributing to this thread I have been following it with a great deal of interest - we have four flights which are very important to us coming up in December and would be miffed in the extreme if a pointless and counterproductive strike (as all strikes ultimately are) were to mess that up for us.

Richard: you are, as ever, the voice of reason. Everyone thinks their job is important and, generally speaking, they're right. However, saying 'but you don't know what our job is like' is irrelevant - if you come to dislike the terms, the pay or just the job in general, get the hell out and find terms/pay/a job that you do like. Don't inflict your disatisfaction upon us poor mugs (ie. your customers) with 'industrial action' just because you're unhappy with your lot.

Strike action doesn't work in anyones' favour - employees, employer and, ultimately, customers will all lose out.

I don't think this is the place for crew to voice how they feel about the pay deal or job, however I have been keeping upto date with thos post and I can't hold it any longer.

For all you people who keep saying get another job if you dont like it. I have not seen or heard 1 ccm say they dislike the job all I have seen and heard is ccms saying they want to be paid more myslef included. I love my job I live Virgin I even like most of our customers. Although I have a feeling I have met a few of you on here and well what more can I say.

Anyway let me ask a question. What would would give someone who does the following:

Help to look after upto 450 customers.
Feed and water the above.
Care for the above.
Give medical attention. Yes we ask for help sometimes but we can do more on an A/C than a doctor or nurse can if it comes to CPR and AED use.
Be a shoulder to cry on. I have lost count of the amount of times I have had to give a customer a hug and let they cry on my shoulder.
Work unsocial hours.
Work long hours.
Be security aware everytime we go to work.
Work with people you don't know everytime you go to work.
Sometimes stand back and take the abuse that is thrown at us.
Work in a very intense and fragile industry.
Be trained for hijack situations
Be trained to restrain someone.
be trained in crowd control.
Be trained to survive and help other survive in almost any situation.
Be trained in Fire fighting.
Be trained how to a more than basic first aid. Incl basic childbirth.
Be trained to evacuate an a/c and be expected to get everyone onboard the a/c off.
Be tested on any of the above before every flight and if you fail the question 3 times go back to training.
Be examined on all the above once a year and if you fail go back to training or loose your job.
Work long hours. Not just the flight time but the time before that you don't see.
Work through lots of times zones each month.
Thats just for normal cc for FSM and CSS there are a few more things to do.

So how much would you pay us? I am not going to sit here and compare cabin crew to Policemen,Firemen, Paramedics or anyone else like that. However I will say that I was a policeman for a short while and lot of the things I done as policeman I still do as a crew member. I don't just mean the everyday stuff that crew do but the things that don't happen everyday. Like saving lives, taking control of large groups,being abused etc.

Now tell me all you people who sit in the office behind a desk running your business who can offoard to travel in J class when you travel you know who you are. How often do you do the above? Not very often if never I bet. I know you all work hard and I am not saying your job is easy or not worthwhile but please think about the above and ask what you would want to be paid for doing the above and then say to yourself how much would I want to be paid I had been with that company for almost 10 years and were incontrol of an a/c and every crew member and customer onbaord that a/c. With the help of the captain of course.

You would not say between 10,000 and 21,000 now would you?

We have a great job, we stay in lovely hotels, we see the world, we work hard but we all still have lives and family at home that we need to take care of. We knew what the condition wer elike when we decided to work for VS but we now want to be a valued member of the virgin family and at the moment we don't. I don't want to strike and if we do there are no winners and the I do feel for all the peopkle that will be choosing to fly with that weekend but if thats what it takes for VS to realise that we are serious then thats what we will have to do.

If I have offended anyone by what I have said that was not my intention and I am sorry. No doubt I will get some harsh words back at me but I am used to it I get it at work sometimes do you?

[RichardMannion]

Lets ask anyone who has a job if they think they should be paid more? How many of them are going to say no?

I like my job, but can earn significantly more if I was to make tradeoffs by working longer hours, spending more time away from home. It's about balance again.

Every job has an associated pay, these ranges were known when the job was taken on. I might sit behind a desk most of the day, and not save anyone's life but in this modern society the rate of pay has been determined by supply/demand and skill. You pay/charge what you can get away with. VS charges what it does for J, because it knows its at a point it can sell. Just like VS knowing that if they pay X, they will have no shortage of people willing to work for X. If you leave tomorrow, how quickly will they be able to fill your role?

Let me spin it around for you, what do you think you are worth? Hopw much %age increase are you after?

I'm not trying to be harsh, just realistic here.

Thanks,
Richard

Originally posted by virgin is the best
Now tell me all you people who sit in the office behind a desk running your business who can offoard to travel in J class when you travel you know who you are.

Damn. You've tracked me down. In fact, I'm sat behind a desk running a business right now. I know; I should be ashamed of myself.

Again, I apologise for coming into this so late and this point has surely been made a number of times already but, v-i-t-b, you went into the job with your eyes open, did you not? You knew what the job entailed? You knew, more or less, how much you'd be paid for said job? Isn't it a bit late to start complaining that a notoriously (in relative terms) low paid job is - well - low paid? There are much less fulfilling jobs out there with much better pay; the choice - as they used to say on Blind Date - is yours...

The % offered is good but not all that crap that goes with it.
As an FSM my position is one that you have to work towards and I know a lot of FSM and CSS that want to be paid more so if we down tools the flight cant leave so they need to realise that and give us what we are worth. I say no more.

[RichardMannion]

Originally posted by virgin is the best
The % offered is good but not all that crap that goes with it.
As an FSM my position is one that you have to work towards and I know a lot of FSM and CSS that want to be paid more so if we down tools the flight cant leave so they need to realise that and give us what we are worth. I say no more.

Whilst that may be true, what does that mean for me as a pax, I simply fly someone else. Where does that leave you guys ultimately?

Just to echo Richard's point - your 'down tools' philosophy is all well and good, but what happens when your customers, or even just your potential customers, take one look at the havoc that causes and fly with another airline?

[preiffer]

I say it time and time again:

Strike (or threat of strike) = Nervous travellersNervous travellers (business or pleasure) = Less bookingsLess bookings = Less revenueLess revenue = Less profitLess profit = Cost cuttingCost cutting = Less staff

Read into it what you will.

Under NO circumstances can active industrial action be proven to provide long term benefits for anyone involved. Short term, maybe - long term, be VERY careful...

[Pete]

Originally posted by virgin is the best

Help to look after upto 450 customers.
Feed and water the above.
Care for the above.
Give medical attention. Yes we ask for help sometimes but we can do more on an A/C than a doctor or nurse can if it comes to CPR and AED use.
Be a shoulder to cry on. I have lost count of the amount of times I have had to give a customer a hug and let they cry on my shoulder.
Work unsocial hours.
Work long hours.
Be security aware everytime we go to work.
Work with people you don't know everytime you go to work.
Sometimes stand back and take the abuse that is thrown at us.
Work in a very intense and fragile industry.
Be trained for hijack situations
Be trained to restrain someone.
be trained in crowd control.
Be trained to survive and help other survive in almost any situation.
Be trained in Fire fighting.
Be trained how to a more than basic first aid. Incl basic childbirth.
Be trained to evacuate an a/c and be expected to get everyone onboard the a/c off.
Be tested on any of the above before every flight and if you fail the question 3 times go back to training.
Be examined on all the above once a year and if you fail go back to training or loose your job.
Work long hours. Not just the flight time but the time before that you don't see.
Work through lots of times zones each month.
Thats just for normal cc for FSM and CSS there are a few more things to do.

Surely this was all part of the job description when you joined? If not, then certainly you might have a case for arguing an appropriate increase, but it is not a valid argument for an incumbent in a job to state the job description they currently have is suddenly worth more than they had initially accepted without other reasons.

Personally I believe strike action is a poor choice. It almost always costs the company a lot of money both as a direct result of the action, and in lost custom in the follow up due to the loss of goodwill with existing customers. That's money Virgin can hardly afford to lose at the moment in light of the haemorrhage of cash due to the Nigerian operation. Much of the verbiage I'm hearing from staff in favour of strike action sounds as though it originated elsewhere, as though this is being stirred up by a handful of activists. I could be wrong, but this isn't language I'm used to hearing from Virgin cabin crew.

Originally posted by virgin is the best
I don't think this is the place for crew to voice how they feel about the pay deal or job, however I have been keeping upto date with thos post and I can't hold it any longer.

For all you people who keep saying get another job if you dont like it. I have not seen or heard 1 ccm say they dislike the job all I have seen and heard is ccms saying they want to be paid more myslef included. I love my job I live Virgin I even like most of our customers. Although I have a feeling I have met a few of you on here and well what more can I say.

Anyway let me ask a question. What would would give someone who does the following:

Help to look after upto 450 customers.
Feed and water the above.
Care for the above.
Give medical attention. Yes we ask for help sometimes but we can do more on an A/C than a doctor or nurse can if it comes to CPR and AED use.
Be a shoulder to cry on. I have lost count of the amount of times I have had to give a customer a hug and let they cry on my shoulder.
Work unsocial hours.
Work long hours.
Be security aware everytime we go to work.
Work with people you don't know everytime you go to work.
Sometimes stand back and take the abuse that is thrown at us.
Work in a very intense and fragile industry.
Be trained for hijack situations
Be trained to restrain someone.
be trained in crowd control.
Be trained to survive and help other survive in almost any situation.
Be trained in Fire fighting.
Be trained how to a more than basic first aid. Incl basic childbirth.
Be trained to evacuate an a/c and be expected to get everyone onboard the a/c off.
Be tested on any of the above before every flight and if you fail the question 3 times go back to training.
Be examined on all the above once a year and if you fail go back to training or loose your job.
Work long hours. Not just the flight time but the time before that you don't see.
Work through lots of times zones each month.
Thats just for normal cc for FSM and CSS there are a few more things to do.

So how much would you pay us? I am not going to sit here and compare cabin crew to Policemen,Firemen, Paramedics or anyone else like that. However I will say that I was a policeman for a short while and lot of the things I done as policeman I still do as a crew member. I don't just mean the everyday stuff that crew do but the things that don't happen everyday. Like saving lives, taking control of large groups,being abused etc.

Now tell me all you people who sit in the office behind a desk running your business who can offoard to travel in J class when you travel you know who you are. How often do you do the above? Not very often if never I bet. I know you all work hard and I am not saying your job is easy or not worthwhile but please think about the above and ask what you would want to be paid for doing the above and then say to yourself how much would I want to be paid I had been with that company for almost 10 years and were incontrol of an a/c and every crew member and customer onbaord that a/c. With the help of the captain of course.

You would not say between 10,000 and 21,000 now would you?

We have a great job, we stay in lovely hotels, we see the world, we work hard but we all still have lives and family at home that we need to take care of. We knew what the condition wer elike when we decided to work for VS but we now want to be a valued member of the virgin family and at the moment we don't. I don't want to strike and if we do there are no winners and the I do feel for all the peopkle that will be choosing to fly with that weekend but if thats what it takes for VS to realise that we are serious then thats what we will have to do.

If I have offended anyone by what I have said that was not my intention and I am sorry. No doubt I will get some harsh words back at me but I am used to it I get it at work sometimes do you?

May I just say I totally understand your defence of you job just the same as anyone else would defend their job/role if they were felling under attack or backed in to a corner that they did not want to be standing in.

However I do feel some of your comments regarding your role and responsibilities are a little bit off the cuff and may well not have been thought through before posting them.

All I will say is you are no better or no worse off than many other non aviation sector employees in you current gripe with pay and conditions of employment.

Also I find it a tad disrespectful to launch attacks on customers of your airline in the same way that I find it totally unnecessary for the paying customer to launch attacks on cabin crew regarding their value, ability and worth.

There are two very simple messages to put out to this rather messy and slightly aggressive topic.

If you love your job but your employer does not reward you duly for all the duties you undertake then seek employment with a new employer in the same sector.

If you dislike the service that you receive or disagree with the manner and approach its staff take towards you as a passenger or disagree with their internal wrangling over pay and conditions then fly with another airline

If you are not prepared to do either of the above given your personal predicament then do the polite thing and PUT UP and SHUT UP. There is a good saying that my dad taught me when I was young. It goes like this.

ÒIf you don't have anything good to say then don't say anything at all.Ó

Ill though off the cuff remarks, hostile approaches, slamming other people for what they do or don't do in their line of employment or just disrespecting someone for the sake of it only leaves you looking the fool and will soon cost you any respect which you may have previously had be it from forum members, moderator and cabin crew alike.

That's all I have to say and I hope that you now follow the already abundant requests from all moderators and fellow v flyer members to pull this topic back in to line with the normally Friendly, relaxed and informative way that V flyer and its members normally carry out their communications on this forum.

Cheers Jerseyboy

Originally posted by jerseyboy

Originally posted by virgin is the best
I don't think this is the place for crew to voice how they feel about the pay deal or job, however I have been keeping upto date with thos post and I can't hold it any longer.

For all you people who keep saying get another job if you dont like it. I have not seen or heard 1 ccm say they dislike the job all I have seen and heard is ccms saying they want to be paid more myslef included. I love my job I live Virgin I even like most of our customers. Although I have a feeling I have met a few of you on here and well what more can I say.

Anyway let me ask a question. What would would give someone who does the following:

Help to look after upto 450 customers.
Feed and water the above.
Care for the above.
Give medical attention. Yes we ask for help sometimes but we can do more on an A/C than a doctor or nurse can if it comes to CPR and AED use.
Be a shoulder to cry on. I have lost count of the amount of times I have had to give a customer a hug and let they cry on my shoulder.
Work unsocial hours.
Work long hours.
Be security aware everytime we go to work.
Work with people you don't know everytime you go to work.
Sometimes stand back and take the abuse that is thrown at us.
Work in a very intense and fragile industry.
Be trained for hijack situations
Be trained to restrain someone.
be trained in crowd control.
Be trained to survive and help other survive in almost any situation.
Be trained in Fire fighting.
Be trained how to a more than basic first aid. Incl basic childbirth.
Be trained to evacuate an a/c and be expected to get everyone onboard the a/c off.
Be tested on any of the above before every flight and if you fail the question 3 times go back to training.
Be examined on all the above once a year and if you fail go back to training or loose your job.
Work long hours. Not just the flight time but the time before that you don't see.
Work through lots of times zones each month.
Thats just for normal cc for FSM and CSS there are a few more things to do.

So how much would you pay us? I am not going to sit here and compare cabin crew to Policemen,Firemen, Paramedics or anyone else like that. However I will say that I was a policeman for a short while and lot of the things I done as policeman I still do as a crew member. I don't just mean the everyday stuff that crew do but the things that don't happen everyday. Like saving lives, taking control of large groups,being abused etc.

Now tell me all you people who sit in the office behind a desk running your business who can offoard to travel in J class when you travel you know who you are. How often do you do the above? Not very often if never I bet. I know you all work hard and I am not saying your job is easy or not worthwhile but please think about the above and ask what you would want to be paid for doing the above and then say to yourself how much would I want to be paid I had been with that company for almost 10 years and were incontrol of an a/c and every crew member and customer onbaord that a/c. With the help of the captain of course.

You would not say between 10,000 and 21,000 now would you?

We have a great job, we stay in lovely hotels, we see the world, we work hard but we all still have lives and family at home that we need to take care of. We knew what the condition wer elike when we decided to work for VS but we now want to be a valued member of the virgin family and at the moment we don't. I don't want to strike and if we do there are no winners and the I do feel for all the peopkle that will be choosing to fly with that weekend but if thats what it takes for VS to realise that we are serious then thats what we will have to do.

If I have offended anyone by what I have said that was not my intention and I am sorry. No doubt I will get some harsh words back at me but I am used to it I get it at work sometimes do you?

May I just say I totally understand your defence of you job just the same as anyone else would defend their job/role if they were felling under attack or backed in to a corner that they did not want to be standing in.

However I do feel some of your comments regarding your role and responsibilities are a little bit off the cuff and may well not have been thought through before posting them.

All I will say is you are no better or no worse off than many other non aviation sector employees in you current gripe with pay and conditions of employment.

Also I find it a tad disrespectful to launch attacks on customers of your airline in the same way that I find it totally unnecessary for the paying customer to launch attacks on cabin crew regarding their value, ability and worth.

There are two very simple messages to put out to this rather messy and slightly aggressive topic.

If you love your job but your employer does not reward you duly for all the duties you undertake then seek employment with a new employer in the same sector.

If you dislike the service that you receive or disagree with the manner and approach its staff take towards you as a passenger or disagree with their internal wrangling over pay and conditions then fly with another airline

If you are not prepared to do either of the above given your personal predicament then do the polite thing and PUT UP and SHUT UP. There is a good saying that my dad taught me when I was young. It goes like this.

ÒIf you don't have anything good to say then don't say anything at all.Ó

Ill though off the cuff remarks, hostile approaches, slamming other people for what they do or don't do in their line of employment or just disrespecting someone for the sake of it only leaves you looking the fool and will soon cost you any respect which you may have previously had be it from forum members, moderator and cabin crew alike.

That's all I have to say and I hope that you now follow the already abundant requests from all moderators and fellow v flyer members to pull this topic back in to line with the normally Friendly, relaxed and informative way that V flyer and its members normally carry out their communications on this forum.

Cheers Jerseyboy

Fair comnent I think. Perhaps this is the time to park this increasingly overheated topic; little more value is likely to come from re-raking over the same points again and again?[;)]

I don't post very often but feel I must post on this. Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of the Virgin cabin crews' 'right' to strike, I really feel for the passengers, not the business passengers who are on flexible fares, but the rest of us who have worked hard to be able to afford to fly wherever in whatever class to go on holiday. What happens to us? Many of us are on cheapest (i.e. not flexible) fares who are unable to move to another airline. Call me selfish but I for one will be very upset if I miss valuable holiday time that I have looked forward to for nearly a year. [V]

Clare

[RichardMannion]

Originally posted by firsttimer
I don't post very often but feel I must post on this. Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of the Virgin cabin crews' 'right' to strike, I really feel for the passengers, not the business passengers who are on flexible fares, but the rest of us who have worked hard to be able to afford to fly wherever in whatever class to go on holiday. What happens to us? Many of us are on cheapest (i.e. not flexible) fares who are unable to move to another airline. Call me selfish but I for one will be very upset if I miss valuable holiday time that I have looked forward to for nearly a year. [V]

Clare

Absolutely Clare, you're not being selfish at all. Will you remember this issue when it comes to booking your holiday for next year? Damn right you will, and again VS loses another customer.

TBH Richard, what with this cabin crew threat of strike coupled with the on/off delays on my favoured route (Orlando)I am really going to have to seriously reconsider my flight options for next year, unless Virgin can sort themselves out.

[Scrooge]

Well first of all, let me thank just about everyone for a fair and balanced discussion.

I can understand both points of view and I hope that all of us can learn a little from this.

May I please take a little time to ask that if this discussion is to continue we keep it going in a reasonable manner.

In the end I have to agree with Prieffer, you strike, you lose, as much as I hate to say it.

Are there no other courses of action you as staff can take ?

Also just to point out to VS management if they are reading...nobody wants to buy into a company that has staff issues.

I think the point is that the CC don't want to strike, this situation has all been done before with the flight deck, but perhaps with less publicity. I think VS underestimated the level of dissatisfaction within the CC & they should now be able to address it.

My personal opinion, there will be no strike. Nobody wants to ruin a holiday, delay a business trip or very importantly, disillusion a frequent flyer. It's sad that this can't all be done around a table, behind closed doors, but it's a bit late for that.

I guess one of the problems is that the crew are only worth the service they provide, the bad experiences sticking in your mind more than the good. The bad eggs are a minority, but again they stand out to the travelling passenger. Let's hope the bad eggs decide not to stay & leave the good to spread the word.

I know it's easy to come out with that old Òyou knew what you got into when you accepted the jobÓ, would you want to use the same statement to people in the occupations listed above!!!!!!!!