From a crew point of view the new offer restores some faith in the progress of the talks, I now feel that further talking will result in a win-win deal. Hopefuly strike action will be avoided. Denzil you raise a fair point however you have to remember that by doing so here it is in the 'lions Den' hence your reply from GJ and less thumbs up than down.
The latest offer is progress, progress is good and means less chance of disruption to the majority of readers here ....the customers.
As for the commetn made about joining another union, cc89 have now merged with T&G however the the merger is set to take some time, however I can see a mass exodus from cc89 to T&G occuring once the pay talks are resolved.
Sincerely
V_O_R
Dear Voice of Something
Do all your circle of friends perceive Virgin customers in this way? Most of my friends and the crew I have had the pleasure of meeting/knowing/being attended by don't. I really hope you're not Virgin crew (we know Denzil isn't as he has identified his Virgin links in other fora) as such an attitude cannot lead to a healthy customer facing relationship.
The Lion's Den.
'a place or state of extreme disadvantage, antagonism, or hostility' - Merriam Webster et al
Do all your circle of friends perceive Virgin customers in this way? Most of my friends and the crew I have had the pleasure of meeting/knowing/being attended by don't. I really hope you're not Virgin crew (we know Denzil isn't as he has identified his Virgin links in other fora) as such an attitude cannot lead to a healthy customer facing relationship.
Mmmm the name Voice of reason and Lions Den don't seem to gel for me.
If anything we are the sheep that provide the wool for your clothing.
I would say that 99.9% of people in this den actually wanted Cabin Crews of all ranks to get a ghood deal whilst naturally not running the risk of losing their own money which seems substantually more than a few % of yours.
Some of us only got a little irked when we got the impression that you thought you were so much better than your clients, oops sorry your employers clients, rather like finding out your best mate that you have always admired and stuck up for has been slagging you off behind your back type of thing.
In answer to a previous question on other forum's I have noticed the seniors who were the most vocal in being dissatisfied and persuading the juniors to vote a big fat NO are now increasingly more satisfied
and appearing to be attempting to pacify the juniors who are thinking the offer is pants.
A great deal of posts describe months of discussions on EVERY flight about the dispute which might illustrate why crews have appeared preoccupied with their own issues and not passengers.
Denzil I wouldn't go so far as inferring you were a manpart or anything[:o)] I just noticed on other forum you actually express your opinions quite forcefully even on occaision refering to specific posts from some crew members in a critical manner as if you were crew yourself and whilst you appear to hold the middle ground here you seem to be favouring the pro strike posts over there, or have been.
It all looks a bit troll like sometimes. May be I am wrong.Edited to add that since receiving a personal from Denzil I now understand his points made on other forum and why, so the troll fanning flames comment is hereby retracted.
Back to the subject of the lions den, why would crew members who thought this way bother to join and why would any employee of any company see its customers as the enemy? You seem to imply that we are lumped together with the management. You may feel you are being undervalued and screwed over by your employers, we just want what we paid for no matter what our route is...is that too much to ask.
If anything we are the sheep that provide the wool for your clothing.
I would say that 99.9% of people in this den actually wanted Cabin Crews of all ranks to get a ghood deal whilst naturally not running the risk of losing their own money which seems substantually more than a few % of yours.
Some of us only got a little irked when we got the impression that you thought you were so much better than your clients, oops sorry your employers clients, rather like finding out your best mate that you have always admired and stuck up for has been slagging you off behind your back type of thing.
In answer to a previous question on other forum's I have noticed the seniors who were the most vocal in being dissatisfied and persuading the juniors to vote a big fat NO are now increasingly more satisfied
and appearing to be attempting to pacify the juniors who are thinking the offer is pants.
A great deal of posts describe months of discussions on EVERY flight about the dispute which might illustrate why crews have appeared preoccupied with their own issues and not passengers.
Denzil I wouldn't go so far as inferring you were a manpart or anything[:o)] I just noticed on other forum you actually express your opinions quite forcefully even on occaision refering to specific posts from some crew members in a critical manner as if you were crew yourself and whilst you appear to hold the middle ground here you seem to be favouring the pro strike posts over there, or have been.
It all looks a bit troll like sometimes. May be I am wrong.Edited to add that since receiving a personal from Denzil I now understand his points made on other forum and why, so the troll fanning flames comment is hereby retracted.
Back to the subject of the lions den, why would crew members who thought this way bother to join and why would any employee of any company see its customers as the enemy? You seem to imply that we are lumped together with the management. You may feel you are being undervalued and screwed over by your employers, we just want what we paid for no matter what our route is...is that too much to ask.
One problem that will reverbarate for a long time is the effect this contentious issue has had on crew/Employer/passenger relations.
Certainly between the crew and passengers, the feeling as has been shown on this forum and many other travel forums, is that quite a few crew are coasting in the job and failing to provide the service that Virgin was renown for.
many crew have idicated that this was because of the poor conditions and pay (even though there are many posts on other firums about other crew on other airlines, better paid also phoning in the service)
Once this dispute is settled, the passengers would hope that this service would return, but I am doubtful when you read on other forums the attitude of certain CC towards the B & s routes and to the passengers paying premium prices.
I woulkd also imagine that many crew have come away from this dispute feeling that the passengers do not care about them and are seen as waiters and waitresses only, looking for their next beach and cheap shpooing at the end of the flight.
Bridges will need to be rebuilt.
Perhaps V-Flyer can help in some way?, by having a forum for both sides to put their views honestly? I know that there are crew only sections and pax only sections, but these will not allow the communication of areas of concern between the groups?
At the moment WDMM web site is overtly hostile to pax and I get the feeling that the crew feel V-Flyer is overtly hostile to the crew.
Paerhaps dialogue can acheive a meeting of the parties for the benefit of both?
P.S. All bets are off if you do go on strike and disrupt my flights!!!! [:(!][:p][:p]
Certainly between the crew and passengers, the feeling as has been shown on this forum and many other travel forums, is that quite a few crew are coasting in the job and failing to provide the service that Virgin was renown for.
many crew have idicated that this was because of the poor conditions and pay (even though there are many posts on other firums about other crew on other airlines, better paid also phoning in the service)
Once this dispute is settled, the passengers would hope that this service would return, but I am doubtful when you read on other forums the attitude of certain CC towards the B & s routes and to the passengers paying premium prices.
I woulkd also imagine that many crew have come away from this dispute feeling that the passengers do not care about them and are seen as waiters and waitresses only, looking for their next beach and cheap shpooing at the end of the flight.
Bridges will need to be rebuilt.
Perhaps V-Flyer can help in some way?, by having a forum for both sides to put their views honestly? I know that there are crew only sections and pax only sections, but these will not allow the communication of areas of concern between the groups?
At the moment WDMM web site is overtly hostile to pax and I get the feeling that the crew feel V-Flyer is overtly hostile to the crew.
Paerhaps dialogue can acheive a meeting of the parties for the benefit of both?
P.S. All bets are off if you do go on strike and disrupt my flights!!!! [:(!][:p][:p]
I am not sure there is anything to discuss, whatever the route the premium cabins are priced very similarly, VA actually isn't the cheapest carrier for Holidays, there is TCD, First Choice Thompson etc
for people to choose from. The fact is that people sitting in the seats have paid for them and expect to receive the goods and services advertised along with the asking price, passengers shouldn't have to
be worrying themselves with what perceptions the staff have of them noe for that matter how much they get paid and what for, everyone should get served according to their paid for choice and the crew should keep their opinions of customers to themselves.
It seems for some its ok to use us as a tool to get a payrise but not very acceptable for us to highlight areas that we might not be happy with.
Its up to an employer to make their staff feel valued, our responsibility is only to treat people with respect and pay our invoices on time. We now have to consider the following, on our next flight,
Will the food be loaded
Will we get offered a drink
Will our seat or suite actually function correctly if at all
If we press our call button will anyone come
Will we be on a flight that is staffed by the WDMM set that will treat
us like a bad smell.
These are questions a customer should not have to ask.
for people to choose from. The fact is that people sitting in the seats have paid for them and expect to receive the goods and services advertised along with the asking price, passengers shouldn't have to
be worrying themselves with what perceptions the staff have of them noe for that matter how much they get paid and what for, everyone should get served according to their paid for choice and the crew should keep their opinions of customers to themselves.
It seems for some its ok to use us as a tool to get a payrise but not very acceptable for us to highlight areas that we might not be happy with.
Its up to an employer to make their staff feel valued, our responsibility is only to treat people with respect and pay our invoices on time. We now have to consider the following, on our next flight,
Will the food be loaded
Will we get offered a drink
Will our seat or suite actually function correctly if at all
If we press our call button will anyone come
Will we be on a flight that is staffed by the WDMM set that will treat
us like a bad smell.
These are questions a customer should not have to ask.
.A deleted post on cabincrew.com, but quoted by another user, so the text was saved, stated that all Gold card holder were getting branded red iPods from Virgin as a 'thank you'. This would have understandably got the backs of cabin crew up, because they would have seen their pay rises going on corporate gifts, and caused division between crew and frequent flyers.
The fact is, all Gold card holders *aren't* getting iPods - this would have probably been a specific bit of marketing amongst V50s, CIPs or other key target customers. After all, if you splash out a few hundred quid on someone that potentially spends (or has the capacity to spend), many thousands on corporate travel, then that makes good business sense.
No doubt we've also picked up the odd half-truth about crew, and I'm pretty sure that we're looking through a glass darkly if we think all cabin crew look down on passengers or treat MCO pax as second class citizens. Sure, there will be some bad apples in the crew; but there are also a few passengers who's opinions I don't share on V-Flyer. It is the extremes of opinion that generally get heard amongst the 'voices of reason' (to coin a phrase [;)]), but those extremes don't represent the whole.
I sense a note of optimism though, and that's encouraging. Hopefully the crew have an agreement which is satisfactory, and what has gone before hasn't done irreparable damage to the relationships between customer, crew and management.
The fact is, all Gold card holders *aren't* getting iPods - this would have probably been a specific bit of marketing amongst V50s, CIPs or other key target customers. After all, if you splash out a few hundred quid on someone that potentially spends (or has the capacity to spend), many thousands on corporate travel, then that makes good business sense.
No doubt we've also picked up the odd half-truth about crew, and I'm pretty sure that we're looking through a glass darkly if we think all cabin crew look down on passengers or treat MCO pax as second class citizens. Sure, there will be some bad apples in the crew; but there are also a few passengers who's opinions I don't share on V-Flyer. It is the extremes of opinion that generally get heard amongst the 'voices of reason' (to coin a phrase [;)]), but those extremes don't represent the whole.
I sense a note of optimism though, and that's encouraging. Hopefully the crew have an agreement which is satisfactory, and what has gone before hasn't done irreparable damage to the relationships between customer, crew and management.
Just out of interest VITB and VOR when exactly do you get to vote, there doesn't seem to be much said about how or when you get to vote YES or NO to the last offer, and what happened with the next offer vote being consolidated with the strike ballot as detailed from UNITE?
Originally posted by easygoingeezer
Just out of interest VITB and VOR when exactly do you get to vote, there doesn't seem to be much said about how or when you get to vote YES or NO to the last offer, and what happened with the next offer vote being consolidated with the strike ballot as detailed from UNITE?
Communication from the National Officer of Unite (Brian Boyd) via the virgin website indicates that the ballots will be dispatched to members on the 9th October, there will then be 3 weeks to return to the ballots. He goes on to state a rejection of this offer will lead to industrial action ballot. Finally he states 'you will receive your ballot paper in a separate communication'. This is contrary to what was communicated in the last notification from the union who said that if the company make another offer (the current one) it will be accompanied with a strike ballot. - if I am reading between the lines correctly it would appear he/they have changed their mind about time scales !?[:?]
I interpret this current communication as - if this offer is rejected the result would be on 30th October or there abouts, then there would be a delay ,then a ballot for strike action would go out perhaps mid November, 3 weeks to get those votes in say early to mid December before that is decided, however I imagine heels will drag to take things through to the other side of christmas.[|)]
VOR thanks for that info, one more question.
Assuming one has to pick a start point for a strike, what happens
to people who are stateside ready to return home and the strike happens to fall on that day, how does that work? Do strike days just happen or are they planned and management pre-warned.....my questions are just out of interest more than anything else.
Assuming one has to pick a start point for a strike, what happens
to people who are stateside ready to return home and the strike happens to fall on that day, how does that work? Do strike days just happen or are they planned and management pre-warned.....my questions are just out of interest more than anything else.
Well, I've now come to the conclusion that Virgin will strike in early December when I am going on my long awaited holiday. I would rather assume they are striking and therefore not look forward to my holiday, rather than continue to look forward to my trip and it be cancelled at the last minute due to the strike - sound strange? Maybe but it's my way of coping with the threat of any strike.
There is so much competition on the B&S routes, BA are even increasing their MCO flights next year so I, along with the many other families going on their holidays, have lots to choose from.
Very sad if it happens, could do unrepairable damage to Virgin on certain routes.
Clare
There is so much competition on the B&S routes, BA are even increasing their MCO flights next year so I, along with the many other families going on their holidays, have lots to choose from.
Very sad if it happens, could do unrepairable damage to Virgin on certain routes.
Clare
I've been steering clear of this topic for some time now but I, like firsttimer, am now getting increasingly concerned (in a very typically pessimistic kind of way) that if a strike does materialise it's going to occur just in time to f**k up our forthcoming honeymoon.
Let me just say that (a) I really hope that this offer is what everyone is looking for and the earlier mentioned win-win conclusion can be reached and, (b) if crew do strike and if our honeymoon is adversely effected then, small fry that we may be in the great scheme of things, VS can say ta-ta to getting any further business out of the mdviponds.
Let me just say that (a) I really hope that this offer is what everyone is looking for and the earlier mentioned win-win conclusion can be reached and, (b) if crew do strike and if our honeymoon is adversely effected then, small fry that we may be in the great scheme of things, VS can say ta-ta to getting any further business out of the mdviponds.
I think you can expect three thumbs down for that from the lurkers that don't give a stuff about you or your custom MDVIPOND.
There are still some harping on about what BA get and even though BA are recruiting right now and pay so so much more these people don't seem to be putting in an application.
There are still some harping on about what BA get and even though BA are recruiting right now and pay so so much more these people don't seem to be putting in an application.
Originally posted by easygoingeezer
I think you can expect three thumbs down for that from the lurkers that don't give a stuff about you or your custom MDVIPOND.
I wouldn't be remotely surprised (or concerned) EGG. I just wish that those calling (hoping?) for a strike can take a second to see how their actions effect other people. I still stand by my comments posted much earlier in this thread - if you don't like something about your job, look for another job. Please don't take it out on me and screw up my honeymoon.
I just have this awful premonition of the-now Mrs. mdvipond and I stranded at LHR, HKG or SYD, trying to comfort a fractious mdvipond jr. and wondering why the hell we bothered with dear old VS.
Anyway, please don't think I'm re-stoking the fires of debate here; I think it's all been covered in the previous 22 pages. Let's just hope for the fabled win-win solution to all of this...
Seems to still be there for me: http://www.wedeservemoremoney.com/
Originally posted by Pete
Seems to still be there for me: http://www.wedeservemoremoney.com/
Layout and formatting hasn't improved though. [;)][:D]
Originally posted by Pete
Seems to still be there for me: http://www.wedeservemoremoney.com/
nope, nada niet, nothing there
Originally posted by AlanAOriginally posted by Pete
Seems to still be there for me: http://www.wedeservemoremoney.com/
nope, nada niet, nothing there
I can still see it -- and I note they've won a Web design award from Internet Magazine!
GJ
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