Cabin Crew Pay Update *2nd NOV*

Just to clear up a common misconception in this industry: whilst airlines are generally cash rich companies, its not their cash. If an airline stopped flying tomorrow, once it repaid all un-flown pax/cargo revenue and paid all its creditors it would be left with very little in the bank. So whilst the bank accounts might look great now, it is not real money, and this is why if they say there's no extra money in the pot they do mean it.

RJD - your are right but the company needs to budget for paying its staff a decent wage. If this means delaying the delivery of an aircraft or an upgrade of the clubhouse then so be it.

All we are asking is for our pay to reflect the industry average. This bring me onto the post from VSCSS showing percentage increases for other carriers. While the 4.8% looks good for VS crew what you fail to show is that other carriers get paid more in the first place.

Its been said before but 4.8% of nothing, is nothing!

Flybird - I wasn't passing a comment, good or bad, on the offer, I just wanted to make the point that cash in the bank doesn't necessarily mean cash to spend.

Forget luggage tags as a V-Flyer membership perk -- we ought to be shipping out crates of Xanax. It works fabulously for me (says GJ, who is this very moment watching through his library window, with a beatific smile, as his yard melts in 100 colours...)

I want to share a few thoughts on the latest twist in this python of a post -- that which regards service levels in premium cabins and whether or not that is a primary consideration for the CC serving in them.

FWIW, I have never flown Y on VS so I can only comment on my expectations as a premium cabin traveller. First, I would like to state that I do not expect to be ministered to with a Prada defibrillator in UCS in the unfortunate event of my heart going all pear -- it is unspeakable to suggest (and I don't think anyone has) that UC and PE pax should get a higher level of safety/emergency care than Y. I'm all for the rich having it easier, believe me, but that's a step too far even for me.

What I do expect is that higher level of service and equipment referred to by Mr. Decker. And what's caused me to have a tough time seeing my way to agreeing with 100% of the CC arguments here is my perception that said service has declined -- thus, it's difficult for me to rush to the ramparts with my proletarian friends as they demand more money because I'm not convinced that this extra dosh is going to result in anything like an enhanced service for the pax. I simply see no proof that this extra money is tied to any expectation by VS, or commitment by crew, to concordantly deliver a higher level of service.

Maybe I'm wrong -- or seeing it from an American viewpoint makes me warped -- but the customer and the shareholder are the bottom line for any company's consideration of pretty much anything -- product mix, marketing, supply chain, manufacturing system, etc. This most certainly includes incentive to employees. I serve on the compensation strategic committee for my company and, believe me, every penny we pay people is designed to incent them to satisfy (and go beyond merely satisfying) the customer by rewarding specific behaviours that make clients happy and create shareholder value-add.

Call it capitalistic tough love, but I'm saying, friends, that CC -- and office staff right on up to the CEO! -- should not get a penny more unless it's with an understanding that shareholders and customers will be directly benefited.

At the end of the day, for me, seeing so much focus on 'what I deserve' versus 'what we need to pay to attract a team capable of serving the pax and generating return for shareholders' seems blinkered and shortsighted. And it drives me to ally with Mr. Decker and Lord Richard when they voice incredulity over some CC's inability to state unequivocally that higher standards of service in premium cabins should be a major focus for any CC assigned there and a major, consistent experience of the pax who fly in them.

Again, none of this is to say that CC are wrong to demand more money. I truly appreciate the time and energy that some of the CC here have gone to to explain what seems a very complicated compensation formula (which complication is another concern) and the competitive compensation landscape. Having seen this information, I'm rather inclined to see CC's point, and conclude that VS corporate has done a poor job of helping CC see the underlying rationale for why they are paid at all and what would be expected for shareholders and pax if they were paid more. It is this latter point that I feel drives some CC (note the scrupulous lack of sweeping generalisation here!) to see their pay as an entitlement instead of an incentive/reward for service rendered. This is a root cause of discord, IMHO, between labour, management...and pax. Actually, sod that H. I don't do H.

I'm sure my drivel will contribute little to the debate -- its major accomplishment may be only to push us to page 33 -- but I felt my points were worth airing. My apologies if they cause offense as I am really not trying to drive anyone over the edge here. In fact, if there are any really cute CC who feel tense from all this and need a massage, I'd be happy to provide my address.

Oh. And one more thing. RichardMannion is god. Please try to remember that. Thank you.

GJ

[Pete]

Originally posted by flybird
RJD - your are right but the company needs to budget for paying its staff a decent wage. If this means delaying the delivery of an aircraft or an upgrade of the clubhouse then so be it.

In a business as competitive as air travel, that could make the difference between profit and loss. Take a read through the trip reports here, and you'll soon realise that frequent flyers soon notice when things aren't up to par - and they vote with their feet.

There clearly has to be a balance, and I can't think of any company that could swallow a 2x or 3x inflationary pay increase for such a large proportion of its staff without that seriously effecting other areas of the business. Virgin are facing even more competition in ground facilities from BA with Terminal 5 coming online soon, plus there's going to be even more competitors muscling into their territory in the next few years. Anyone who thinks they can stand still forgets that other airlines won't, and they'd happily use the opportunity to tempt the business passengers away.

Originally posted by vscc
highly-skilled role... yeah we'll see how highly skilled it is when we're getting your ass out of a burning aircraft.

Oh I can see it know your one these pax that thinks they are god and expects to be waited on hand and foot, I think a little bit of travelling down the back with the genuine, down to earth folk would do you a bit of good!

Oh btw is it your company that pays for your 'Premium' ticket?

vscc: please tell me that you regret making the above post; you began with a few quite sensible posts earlier, so I would like to believe it was made in the heat of the moment. I say this because if this is really how you feel about the majority of premium class customers you are serving then you have no business being in that job.

The safety aspect of your job is perfectly understood by most of us here and needs to be neither exaggerated nor understated.

I fly two to three times a year in mostly UC sometimes PE cabins using my own hard earned cash. When I have paid over £2000 for return flight (Others may have paid over £6000),I expect an all round better experience; better seat; better food and not least better service.

In fairness, on my last few flight in UC I have received excellent service from the cabin crew, but I have also in the past experienced all aspects of a much poorer service highlighted by others in this forum. (I still have vivid recollections of a particularly bad flight about 5 years ago in the Y cabin of VS007 and of poking my head through the closed curtains into the galley area to ask for some water for my dry throat and being treated like some sort of hideous gastropod that had just crawled into view).

You may feel that you deserve more money - that's OK with me; and yes you are free to complain about unreasonable and demanding passengers but if you want to critise the average passenger(premium or otherwise) for expecting to receive the service that they have paid for you will receive short change here.

[Darren Wheeler]

Just to clarify one point. The first priority of CC, or anyone in any job is their own personal safety. On, say, a plane with 300 pax and crew, I don't care if 299 don't get off alive, as long as I do.

Originally posted by pkatmk
being treated like some sort of hideous gastropod that had just crawled into view.

I don't know you. But I love you.

GJ

pkatmk,

[^][^][^][^] [y]

I don't care if 299 don't get off alive, as long as I do.

I really hope you're not being serious.

45.

P.S. Has this thread surpassed the GNF topic?

[Darren Wheeler]

Originally posted by VS045

I don't care if 299 don't get off alive, as long as I do.

I really hope you're not being serious.

45.

P.S. Has this thread surpassed the GNF topic?

OK, I do care, but will fight tooth and nail to make sure I get off.

yes, by some 8 pages.

I don't know you. But I love you.

GJ

I say, steady on! I am British you know.

Originally posted by Darren Wheeler
will fight tooth and nail to make sure I get off.

Typical male. What about my needs?

To clarify -- I do not think Mr. Fletcherwheeler is CC -- he is, I believe, stating his views as a member of pax. I dare suspect he understands CC might have a different, more inclusive view of pax rescue, although ISTBC.

GJ

[Darren Wheeler]

Originally posted by GrinningJackanapes

Originally posted by Darren Wheeler
will fight tooth and nail to make sure I get off.

Typical male. What about my needs?

To clarify -- I do not think Mr. Fletcherwheeler is CC -- he is, I believe, stating his views as a member of pax. I dare suspect he understands CC might have a different, more inclusive view of pax rescue, although ISTBC.

GJ

Quite so. I do recall seeing an episode of Airport when they followed a CC member through training. In the evacuation traning she was quite clearly told that Virgin do not expect her to sacrifice herself for the company.

I understand that GJ; I was picking up on the 'I don't care' about the lives of others as long as I'm alright part.

Just a thought, while I know that most of the CC that post on VF are clearly exemplary in their field, as demonstrated by the attitudes in their posts, many other CC are clearly not up to this high standard, as we have all I'm sure experienced to one degreee or another. What I am getting at is whether VF's CC think their colleagues will improve the quality of their work as the result of a pay-rise. If standards are going to remain the same, there is little incentive for VS to increase salary or for pax to fund this cost.

45.

I have been flying for over 10 year and have trained at 3 airlines. I have always been told to save myself first in the event of an emergency. I would definately try and save other people, but would also be straight out of the aircraft if I felt I was in serious danger. After all CAA regulations state we are required in the event of an emergency. All the other stuff is just fluff to make the rich people in the pointy end feel special.

In my 3 years with Virgin I have been told almost everytime I go to work that the crew are the 'reason' people fly on VS. Thats probably why someone posted earlier in this thread that without the crew there would be no Virgin. Its Virgin's way of making us feel 'special' without them paying the going rate. Ground staff, tech guys, office staff all deserve to be paid more and its not the crews fault that you are not represented by a union. I'm sure if enough of you got together and sought union representation they (the union) would be more than happy to help out in future pay negotiations.

[Pete]

Originally posted by flybird

I'm sure if enough of you got together and sought union representation they (the union) would be more than happy to help out in future pay negotiations.

What I'm not sure I understand is that the union were happy to settle on the second offer, weren't they? Why do you now flag wave for them?

From the way this pay dispute has gone so far; repeat that over the entire business and Virgin would be on its knees before Christmas.

Sorry - I'm in support of a fair deal for cabin crew, but from the way this has played out, the union is appalling.

Pete I didn't say I supported the way the union have handled this. I believe both the union and the company have magnificently under estimated the mood of the crew. At no time have I been asked by the union what I want from the pay deal, its very bad when I have been paying them to do a job for several years.

What I was trying to say is that if ground staff aren't happy then they can approach a union for representation, obviously this wouldn't be the same union the crew have.

Originally posted by flybird
I have been flying for over 10 year and have trained at 3 airlines.

Did you change employers because of better pay? Better culture? Better opportunities for yourself to travel? All the above? Just curious.

Also, do you sense VS has more of an antagonistic relationship between labour and management than your previous employers?

I have always been told to save myself first in the event of an emergency. I would definately try and save other people, but would also be straight out of the aircraft if I felt I was in serious danger. After all CAA regulations state we are required in the event of an emergency.

I'm having a hard time reconciling the first sentence with the last. I think what you are saying is you'll do your best, but if given a choice between walking into a flame ball or jumping off the plane, you would choose the latter. I would support that!

All the other stuff is just fluff to make the rich people in the pointy end feel special.

Now, I fear I must administer a slap on the wrist. Don't worry, I'll be gentle.

First off, what you call 'fluff' is what others call 'brand experience' or, 'experiential return on investment' (IOW, getting what one paid for). This is critical to the differentiation of the airline which, in turn, provides points of attraction/engagement for premium fliers and which, simplistically stated, drives higher amounts of revenue per seat, much to the delight of shareholders and, by extension, to the longevity of the company.

And whilst 'rich' people may well make up the majority of the pointy end, never allow yourself to forget the young couple who scrimped and saved to have a once-in-a-lifetime honeymoon, the poor slob who travels Y all year on the company dime and rewards himself with a miles-paid UC experience once in a blue moon, and me -- the moron who has no retirement savings but who lives to travel and pays far more than he should for a seat in UC. These people would be so unfairly served by an attitude as blithe as the one you expressed.

Just my 2 cents, which you are welcome to throw back in my face.

GJ

1: No I have moved around the world (please forgive me being a Kiwi) and worked for a New Zealand base carrier (fantastic, wonderful company) then moved back to the UK and joined a low cost carrier (actually really good to work for and great pay but wanted to fly longhaul again). I do sense a more antagonstic approach from management as you suggest and I feel they have been wearing blinkers for too long and actually believed all is OK at the coalface.

2: Your assumption is correct.

3: I knew that would generate a slap on the wrist. After working for the New Zealand carrier I don't feel the hard product is particularly good at Virgin, I'm frequently embarrassed by the quality of what we serve up. The soft product/crew service can be a mixed bag just as trip reports suggest but the onboard managers need to address the individuals responsible for poor/rude service. I just don't get paid enough to worry about it.

I'm off soon to go back to Air New Zealand this time based in London. OK they only have 2 destination but at least I will be able to pay the rent!

Flybird, thank you for taking the time to respond and good luck at your new job!

GJ

I think your comments in recent posts are good GJ, lots of different angles & all in good humour. As many have said the money is down to supply & demand. The pilots & engineers earn a pretty competitive deal at VS, but there isn't a bucket load of either out there. Cabin crew at VS historically have had a bad deal, you guessed it, there's a 5 mile queue to join VS as CC. But how many of these people really know what the jobs like, how they'll manage on the money or if the whole life is for them??

All the talk of cash rich airlines?? VS isn't one of them, what do they actually own & what do they rent/lease?? That said they must move with the times & invest in the future new aircraft, clubhouse etc. Is all the investment good, i don't think so, a crew training centre that has a voice telling you how good looking you are as you enter the building is 100% bull$hit.

Anyway we digress, if any of the VS big wigs read this, get your backsides around the table & find out what YOUR staff really want. I'm sure a bit of give & take would give a result to make both sides happy. Whilst your at it, get a manager that can actually manage the crew & not require them to have 5 months out of every 36 in limbo land on stand-by (perhaps cutting SEP to 2 days like other Big Airlines do in place of a non-productive 4 days).

[Scrooge]

Originally posted by vscc

As for this whole idea that we chat in the galley, the only time we chat is when we are having something to eat or during a night flight when we are not doing services. Any other times we are out in the aisles doing services, so please get your facts right!

Ok I have stayed out of this thread for a while, but I do need to bring up a couple of point....

Firstly no I have never been crew, I have dated a crew member, who now happens to be an FSM and I can tell you your above statement is wrong, it may be correct for you, but I have spent enough time in the galleys with crew talking the breeze to know that does not apply to all crew members, of course this can be found in other lines of work as well, but please do not try to paint every crew member as a holier than thou type, they are human beings, some will work hard, some will not, just a fact of life.

Second, I tried to tell the crew members, if you guys threaten to strike to public will turn against you, try to find a better way of doing it.

If it was me I would set up informational pickets outside LHR, LGW and MAN, hand out nice little flyers that explain the cabin crews postion and explaining that during this timing the crew will still be doing it's best to make sure you have a great trip.

You embarrass VS while still having the public in your corner, worked kind of nicely for US employees btw.

Originally posted by Scrooge
If it was me I would set up informational pickets outside LHR, LGW and MAN, hand out nice little flyers that explain the cabin crews postion and explaining that during this timing the crew will still be doing it's best to make sure you have a great trip.

You embarrass VS while still having the public in your corner, worked kind of nicely for US employees btw.

If this is legal, I say fair play. It's certainly one way of holding pax harmless in the skirmish betwixt management and labour whilst still getting CC's point across.

But for god's sake, get a better designer for the brochure than the poor sod what did the WDMM Web site! [:p]

GJ

hi wow you go out for the day and look what happens LOL it all got a bit heated! well here i am have been to brighton for the day had luch for me and a friend, cost me £30 thank god for that nairobi i did the other day!!! LOL sad but true.

OK here we go i am very on the fence here as you may have read in my last post, i would like to point out to all our crew on here, who assume that because somebody's company pays for their travel they deserve less service than someone who pays out of their pocket. My dad has worked abroad all my life so travels, in Y mainly, on loads of different airlines, but im sure would expect some kind of service. Also (now heres a great piont!!) how many of us crew have moaned/complained about certain carribean hotels where the staff are rude to crew? you can often here 'just because our airline pays for us to stay here/there we shouldn't be treated any less' now there's something to make you think!

As for my job, im flying tomorrow morning, on an airbus, west coast USA out of LHR (im sure most of you will now know what flight lol) and i shall probably try to get premium, havn't done it for a bit so like to keep my hand in as it were. I will complete my PE first service, then wheather asked to or not go into Y to help out, then back to PE to carry on with things like fruit, oj and water. then at some piont i may get a break, where depending on the flight and FSM may do a few 'magic moments' be it a glass of wine from J or a visit to the bar, if it isn't busy. we are activly encouraged to do these, then i may take a break. after which i'll be onto the second service. All this and inbetween i will be answering call bells promptly (as they say in the industry it may be a coke it may be a stroke).

My job is not highly skilled, yes there is so so much to remember, and the training virgin do is one of the hardest in the industry next to emirates, but come on, it most certainly isnt rocket science. What it is though is, rewarding, responsible, tiring, stressfull, and at times emmotional. it requires great personality, focus, memory, maturity, alot of patience, and stamina. it affects your personal life being away so much (ask my ex!) it can effect your health but you know what even at £10,000 basic, by god its worth it!

maybe im just sad, i dunno i left school at 16 joined the RAF (now there was a highly skilled job, 18 months of technical training!)so alway have been around aircraft, and then moved to comercial aviation. perhaps virgin could learn alot from my last airline, all the managers no matter what department, had to go and work in each section of the airline to get a feel for their employee's, and what they do. I have flown with my old CEO and watched him empty an aircraft toilet bin. If nothing else it boosts morale and gives the right impression to the workers.

ok now i have fallen off my fence some what [8D] i would like to point out that i have never knowingly met a V-flyer on any of my flights, so that must mean that the several thousand passengers i have met don't really care whether we are crew down, whether there is a problem with IFE at LGW,wheather there is a baby being born at the bar, or a heart attack being dealt with at the 4 doors, or indead how much im being payed to serve them, all they want is to go from A to B in comfort relative to what they have paid, for the cabin they are in. If we strike all they will see is that they can travel on BMI,BA,AA,UA, the list is endless and grows by the day.

So (after all my rambling!) where does this leave me, well working my flight tomorrow, im not expecting to evacuate the plane or recreate an episode of ER so i shall do what im there to do, albeit my secondary reason for being there but still from a pax point of view, (and mine) very important, and that is to deliver the virgin atlantic service whilst dripping of virgin flair! LOL

i hope we get what we deserve but im not prepared to fight to the death for it!