'"he wont put his seat up!'"

Originally posted by G-VFLY

What a fantastic bit of writing! Whilst being a bit older than you I do agree with the whole 'lets brand the youth of today with the same brush'. But that is getting a bit off topic from the OP.

Also, with the Premium market expanding, I can see demand for Y getting less. This can result in an increase in W demand, hence cabin reconfigurations VS are completing at the moment. This is a growing market, and I think can grow even more.

I'd like to think this will happen as well but I do not think it will.
1. Y doesn't make any money- its the front that subsidies those in the back. So an increase in W seats is good as it brings more money and is essentially, if you want to be clear about it, a good use of space. An increase in Y won't give the airline any higher profits so wont be done. It would only be done if people stopped traveling in Y on VS and opted for other carriers. So a reconfig is really out of the window.
2. If it is going to happen look for it happening when the new a/c for LGW are ordred.

Originally posted by Family Man
This increasingly 'I'm alright Jack' mentality is frustrating and is continually eroding the basic fabric of a society.

Good points FM. The whole idea of the law saying one thing and the morals (if you like) of the nation saying another. Part of the problem with a common law system that we operate.

I agree with you about the 'Im alright Jack' mentality, a view echoed by last nights 10 o clock news, but what can we really expect when the government are advising us to do exactly this.

Since my comment has caused SUCH a storm....

If you continue reading the sentance I also say 'and I don't care if the person in front of me reclines from the off'.

I'm a very considerate flyer - I don't make noise, I don't make demands of the CC and, as I said, I always put my seat up for food service (and I don't recline again until the person behind me has finished)- BUT I didn't design the seats. They are designed to recline so why shouldn't people recline?

Reclining is nothing to do with being inconsiderate - the person behind me can recline if they choose to, as can the person in front.If the person behind reclines they can see the screen perfectly well, if they choose not to recline then they won't be able to see the screen as well. Their choice. Same as it's my choice if the person in front reclines.

Mrs D

Originally posted by Mrs Decker
If the person behind reclines they can see the screen perfectly well, if they choose not to recline then they won't be able to see the screen as well.

Not strictly true. I have been in this situation and on the Nova aircraft and I think the Odyssey too - the contrast is such that if the person in front is reclined fully and you are over too tall - you cannot see your screen no matter how far you recline or adjust the contrast (unless you tilt your head to lower it or slide uncomfortably down in your seat). Anyway that is a design fault of the seats/video system.

It is not that reclining is in itself inconsiderate, of course not, otherwise as others have said VS would not design them as such. You state that you put your seat up for meals so that I would assume is done, in part, as a consideration. Therefore the only issue is what each person recognises as the appropriate level of consideration. This is obviously a personal line in the sand that will be drawn by each individual.

FM

True story.......
A friend of mine was on the VS602 from JNB to LHR in August last year. He is 6'3 and around 18 stones (many KG's. He was booked in economy (Aisle seat)on a MATES rate.
The person in front of him called the steward /ess over and said 'the guy behind me is huge - so i won't be able to recline my seat - are there any other seats available as i won't be able to relax'. My friend said the guy had a bit of an 'attitude' as he was angling for an upgrade.
Within a couple of minutes the steward came back and said to the chap in front 'Don't worry sir, you will be able to recline shortly' - he then said to my friend 'would you come with me please sir.......'
Apparently the guy had a look of thunder and was really p...d off when he realised what was happening.
An economy to upper upgrade materialised!!!
What a result!

Cheers

Richard

Originally posted by GrinningJackanapes
Oh, Andrew, all that huff and puff...

Let's look at what the FAA says. In fact, the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) was asked about the use of Knee Defenders.

As reported in the October 28, 2003 edition of The Washington Post:

'FAA spokesman Paul Takemoto said the clips were not against federal aviation rules as long as they weren't used during taxiing, takeoffs or landings.'

Knee Defenders are specifically designed to be used with your tray table lowered, while your tray table must be up and locked 'during taxiing, takeoffs or landings.'

So, as long as Knee Defenders are being used as they are designed to be used in flight, their use does not violate any US aviation law, rule, or regulation.

Feel free to call me on them when next you see me on a flight.

GJ

Hi All

This thread seems to have whipped a few up into a froth [;)]

As I often do I will throw in my 2c worth.

I have to say that I dont fly in Economy that often and if I do it is usually on short haul, although I have to say that this subject can also apply at times to PE especially a very long flight.

For my part unless there is a very good reason not to, I will always recline my seat as and when I choose to do so with the exception of during meals when I will always sit back up even I hasten to add if the person in front of me does not. This said however before I recline I will always glance behind and recline the seat slowly.

The 'good reasons not to' do not include people who huff and puff or dig their knees in my back 'just because' they dont like reclined seats.

As for the use of 'Knee Defenders' ..... firstly I have to say that if anyone did that to my seat I would be mighty pi$$ed off.

Although the FAA have some say over VS aircraft because they fly to the USA and within US airspace, they are not the sole legislator for UK aircraft, it would be interesting to hear the views of the CAA and VS (and others) ? I really cannot see how a key locked device on a tray table is not a potential danger in an emergency situation, what if the key gets lost/mislaid inflight ? ..... sudden turbulance where everything needs to be stowed quickly etc etc.

It would also be a very interesting argument as to whether using these constitutes 'Criminal Damage' under UK law ... there used to be part of the act that dealt with 'temporary functional derangement' not sure if it still exists.

Some more food for thought on a very intersting discussion [:)]

Cheers

Mark [:D]

[preiffer]

If I EVER see anyone using a pair of 'knee defenders', I guarantee their very next purchase will be a pair of ear defenders. [V]

If it didn't come with the airplane, it wasn't meant to be attached to it.


(Oh, and Richard - LOVE it! I can just imagine the grin on that crewmember's face when they worked out how they were going to deal with the situation!)

Originally posted by mas66

As for the use of 'Knee Defenders' ..... firstly I have to say that if anyone did that to my seat I would be mighty pi$$ed off.

Although the FAA have some say over VS aircraft because they fly to the USA and within US airspace, they are not the sole legislator for UK aircraft, it would be interesting to hear the views of the CAA and VS (and others) ? I really cannot see how a key locked device on a tray table is not a potential danger in an emergency situation, what if the key gets lost/mislaid inflight ? ..... sudden turbulance where everything needs to be stowed quickly etc etc.

It would also be a very interesting argument as to whether using these constitutes 'Criminal Damage' under UK law ... there used to be part of the act that dealt with 'temporary functional derangement' not sure if it still exists.

Some more food for thought on a very intersting discussion [:)]

Cheers

Mark [:D]

Food for thought, yes, but served a bit intellectually stale. Where in the world do you see these as key-locked devices? Did you bother to read how they function? Your rage is whipped up by a false wind, sir!

That said, though, if anyone was due to be locked up for temporary functional derangement, it would be me! [:p]

And of course, I respect your right to be concerned that such a device had been placed on your chair, and I hope you would respect my right to be concerned by a cracked knee-cap when some person (no doubt less respectful than you) slams their seat back. It's simply happened to me too often so I take this small precaution and will happily remove them if found out (never have been) and asked to do so.

Also, I never affix them outside the USA precisely because I do not know their status under any other than FAA jurisdiction.

GJ

[preiffer]

To be fair, GJ - the initial picture showing how 'small' the devices are shows a key (only for size illustration). A quick glance would have people believe they're lockable devices:

Originally posted by preiffer
If I EVER see anyone using a pair of 'knee defenders', I guarantee their very next purchase will be a pair of ear defenders. [V]

Guess what you're getting for Christmas!!! And I hope you go through the plane tearing down all the Halloween and Chrimbo decorations as they did not come with the plane either! Roll on, Preiffer!!!

GJ

Originally posted by preiffer
To be fair, GJ - the initial picture showing how 'small' the devices are shows a key (only for size illustration). A quick glance would have people believe they're lockable devices:

Nonetheless, if one is going to whip into a frenzy, having all facts in order is helpful.

GJ

[preiffer]

Originally posted by GrinningJackanapes
Guess what you're getting for Christmas!!! And I hope you go through the plane tearing down all the Halloween and Chrimbo decorations as they did not come with the plane either! Roll on, Preiffer!!!

My issue is that by using these so-called 'as devious as they are ingenious devices' , YOU are interfering with the operation of MY seat.

That, in my book, is way out of line. Whatever happened to people TALKING to each other in conflict situations? These devices strike me as nothing short of cowardly and underhand. [n]



PS - I'm still a little confused anyway.

I mean, when I look behind me I only ever see a duvet and pillow - how on earth are they supposed to use these devices all on their own? Granted, it is a little cramped back there, I'll give you that... [}:)][;)]

Originally posted by preiffer
Whatever happened to people TALKING to each other in conflict situations? These devices strike me as nothing short of cowardly and underhand. [n]

I hear you. I respect your point. And whilst I don't expect that I will change your mind (I don't really even think you SHOULD have to change your mind) I will tell you that what drove me to buy those things was that talking -- always the first recourse for a civilised gentleman -- did not help.

On several occasions, Mr. Preiffer, the seat came down with no warning and either a) cracked me in the head, b) cracked me on the knee and/or c) spilled my drink all over my work clothes, which had to be worn to a meeting following landing. CC in every instance refused to intervene, saying, 'It's his right -- you're just unlucky. Here, have a paper napkin to clean off the coffee from your pants.'

On at least four of these occasions, I talked first to the gentleman (always a male...not sure that means anything) and was told in no uncertain terms, 'Sorry, but it's my right.' I was rebuffed 100% of the time in a request to have them move up more, if only just a bit.

It's untenable. So I chose to prevent this happening again in a manner that I believe is legal, but probably not very ethical. I'm sure this is the first and only time I've ever made that kind of Faustian bargain [:w]

I'm not asking to be agreed with for having these. But I do use them, and will until I feel it is incorrect to do so.

GJ

Originally posted by GrinningJackanapes

Originally posted by mas66

As for the use of 'Knee Defenders' ..... firstly I have to say that if anyone did that to my seat I would be mighty pi$$ed off.

Although the FAA have some say over VS aircraft because they fly to the USA and within US airspace, they are not the sole legislator for UK aircraft, it would be interesting to hear the views of the CAA and VS (and others) ? I really cannot see how a key locked device on a tray table is not a potential danger in an emergency situation, what if the key gets lost/mislaid inflight ? ..... sudden turbulance where everything needs to be stowed quickly etc etc.

It would also be a very interesting argument as to whether using these constitutes 'Criminal Damage' under UK law ... there used to be part of the act that dealt with 'temporary functional derangement' not sure if it still exists.

Some more food for thought on a very intersting discussion [:)]

Cheers

Mark [:D]

Food for thought, yes, but served a bit intellectually stale. Where in the world do you see these as key-locked devices? Did you bother to read how they function? Your rage is whipped up by a false wind, sir!

That said, though, if anyone was due to be locked up for temporary functional derangement, it would be me! [:p]

And of course, I respect your right to be concerned that such a device had been placed on your chair, and I hope you would respect my right to be concerned by a cracked knee-cap when some person (no doubt less respectful than you) slams their seat back. It's simply happened to me too often so I take this small precaution and will happily remove them if found out (never have been) and asked to do so.

Also, I never affix them outside the USA precisely because I do not know their status under any other than FAA jurisdiction.

GJ

GJ

Firstly .... let me admit my mistake around the key issue, caused by me looking at the pictures and not reading the words [:o)] But im far from being in a rage about it ! ..... (until you are seated behind me clipping them to my seat, that is [;)]) but hey, we are all human and make mistakes, Im sure even you GJ once in a while [;)]

Cheers

Mark

Originally posted by mas66
we are all human and make mistakes, Im sure even you GJ once in a while [;)]

But it's so much more fun picturing you stamping your feet, cracking your cheeks with rage! [:p] OK, point noted! [y]

And as for me making mistakes, being born was merely the first of an interminable succession of errors, missteps and parapraxii. I am, sir, a very broken vessel, held together with only the brittle glue of human forgiveness received from others.

GJ

Interesting invention & although the FAA spokesman say's they are ok, i can see you'd be in hot water if damage to the seat was caused by it's fitment. The device does have an effect on the normal operation of the aircraft, so again airline could get upset.

It's use during meal service is understandable, but perhaps not all of the flight (just take a 2 year old, it's more fun).

Passenger courtesy,consideration and compromise = continued use of inadequate legroom from airlines.
Root cause is not enough seat pitch. Whilst we all argue to and fro about who is right or wrong, VS and BA sit back and do nothing about the seat pitch in ecconomy. Why should they, when they know that passengers will carry on compromising here and there. I gave up ecconomy flights on longhaul after being almost crippled on a BA flight back from Antigua. 31' seat pitch,an IFE box under the seat in front of me and 10 abreast seating on a 777 where 3 months earlier, the Delta 777 I flew on had 9 abreast seating,convinvced me that some airlines don`t give a damn about their customers in ecconomy.
I would like to know if there is any type of conduit whereby the VS crew on this forum report our comments back to Virgin and if yes, do the comments go straight in the bin or are they acted upon?

Originally posted by Paul H
Passenger courtesy,consideration and compromise = continued use of inadequate legroom from airlines.
Root cause is not enough seat pitch. Whilst we all argue to and fro about who is right or wrong, VS and BA sit back and do nothing about the seat pitch in ecconomy. Why should they, when they know that passengers will carry on compromising here and there. I gave up ecconomy flights on longhaul after being almost crippled on a BA flight back from Antigua. 31' seat pitch,an IFE box under the seat in front of me and 10 abreast seating on a 777 where 3 months earlier, the Delta 777 I flew on had 9 abreast seating,convinvced me that some airlines don`t give a damn about their customers in ecconomy.
I would like to know if there is any type of conduit whereby the VS crew on this forum report our comments back to Virgin and if yes, do the comments go straight in the bin or are they acted upon?

Another point with the seat pitch in Y, is that many UK charter airlines, ie first chocie, and some orietal airlines are now offering 34' in Y. VS could easily introduce this and would win alot of additional customers for it!

[preiffer]

Originally posted by G-VFLY
Another point with the seat pitch in Y, is that many UK charter airlines, ie first chocie, and some orietal airlines are now offering 34' in Y. VS could easily introduce this and would win alot of additional customers for it!

Slight flaw in that plan: VS hardly have 'empty planes' - far from it, they often oversell in economy. So, less seats (increased seat pitch) = less passengers.

So... where would these 'additional customers' go? You've just ripped out the 50 seats they were going to sit on... [;)]


Until passengers vote with their feet (or bums), the airlines will NOT listen.


The question is, how much is VS willing to pay (or effectively lose) for good PR, or how much EXTRA are passengers willing to pay for comfort? [:?]

Originally posted by GrinningJackanapes
(edited)I will tell you that what drove me to buy those things was that talking -- always the first recourse for a civilised gentleman -- did not help.

On several occasions the seat came down with no warning and either a) cracked me in the head, b) cracked me on the knee and/or c) spilled my drink all over my work clothes, which had to be worn to a meeting following landing.

So I chose to prevent this happening again in a manner that I believe is legal, but probably not very ethical. I'm sure this is the first and only time I've ever made that kind of Faustian bargain [:w]

I'm not asking to be agreed with for having these. But I do use them, and will until I feel it is incorrect to do so.

GJ

I, for one, side with GJ ([:0][:0][:0]A first, I think!) on this issue. I also own a pair of Knee Defenders - and I use them.

No, not on Virgin flights. Don't need to. But on intra-US or Canadian flights, if the airline either doesn't offer or have any first-class seats I can buy on the flight, you bet I use them if I can't wait or route for a first-class seat.

Do I snug them down so the seat won't recline at all? NO. I set them to the point where the seat won't crash into my knees (I already have one rebuilt knee, and I'd rather not go through that again), or take out my laptop (happened twice before I got the little plastic things, which at $15 is cheaper than another Fujitsu - or my higher insurance rates for repeat claims - and both laptop assassins didn't so much as apologize for putting me temporarily out of work. Offer to pay for what they did? Surely you jest). Has anyone complained about the Knee Defenders? No, and you'd have to know what they were to even know they were there.

Do I feel guilty? The seat in front of me still reclines; just not enough to cause damage. Do I recline my seat? No. I can't; I either sit up straight or I lie down on planes (as well as cars, buses, furniture, and everything else). My back has no in-between setting. The person behind me can put a pair of Knee Defenders on my seat with my blessing; I won't care a whit.

These little creations were made for fed-up travelers. We can debate them all we want, but they're legal, they're popular, and there are lots of them floating around carry-on bags... perhaps on a flight near you...[:w]

Originally posted by vs_itsallgood
I, for one, side with GJ ([:0][:0][:0]A first, I think!) on this issue. I also own a pair of Knee Defenders - and I use them.

Don't worry -- after the first time, it just gets easier and easier...

As for your use of these infernal devices, thank you for your support and opinion. Just get ready for the onslaught of shrill people who equate your use of these with the stuffing of rags into fanjets, the prying of rivets from the fuselage or the very unwiring of the navigation system.

GJ

I find the debate over the morality of 'Knee Defenders' fascinating because it has so many analogues in society.

These are areas where the 'regulating authority', be it government or private company, declines to offer any laws, rules or even guidelines as to what is acceptable or unacceptable behaviour except in the most extreme of circumstances:

For example:

1) The right to own a cat versus the rights of a neigbour to tend a garden without feline interference

2) The freedom to play music in ones own house versus the rights of neighbours to peace and quiet.

3) The freedom to park a car anywhere in the street versus the right to park outside your own house.

I can think of literally hundreds of such examples. Yet in every case they can be managed by a responsible and considerate attitude on the part of the person exercising their rights and a tolerant and compromising attitude from the offended party.

Its a wonderful thing when both parties meet this obligation, but what this post is really about is the conflict that arises when one or both persons fails to rise to the challenge.

It is apparent to me however that in almost every case it is the person who uncompromisingly exercises their rights to do something who generally prevail over those who have the consequences inflicted upon them.

Take for example the intrusive music of a neighbour: Let us assume that the level of the music is below that which will precipitate action by the local authority, nevertheless it is sufficient to disturb the peaceful aspirations of the neighbour. A fair compromise would result from an agreement between both parties restricting the duration or hours of music being played. However if there is no willingness on the part of the music propagator to compromise then the neighbour will lose completely their right to peace and quiet, however reasonable and compromising a person they themselves may be.

It is for this reason I find at least sympathy with the proponents of this device. GJ is not advocating indiscrimate use of this device (which would be of questionable morality); he does impose his own 'comprise' allowing the seat to decline 50%, but has indicated he would remove it immediately when challenged. I shouldn't speak for others, but I get the impression that GJ wouldn't use it at all if he could somehow know that the person in front was going to be a considerate seat recliner.

The cabin of an aircraft, especially long haul,and especially in economy, is a strained atmosphere where passengers habits, character and attitude severely test each other; and you can't just walk away. I believe it is incumbent on airlines to do more to 'eliminate by design' or otherwise regulate these commonly ocurring flash-points. At present, airline advertising tries to convince us all that we can have our cake and eat it and when it comes to issuing guidelines they are somewhat pusillanimous.

Originally posted by willd
1. Y doesn't make any money- its the front that subsidies those in the back.

Don't you believe it. It's what The Ginger Bearded One would have you and everyone else believe, but he simply means it doesn't add any profit to the bottom line. But every Y fare does add profit at the gross profit level.
Think about it - why does VS give FC miles for Y fares? So that they can lose more money by giving away Reward seats? I don't think so.
And, yes, this is a blatant attempt to go off topic.

Originally posted by pkatmk
I get the impression that GJ wouldn't use it at all if he could somehow know that the person in front was going to be a considerate seat recliner.

As The Sun says: 'I can reveal' you are quite right! [:p]

GJ

hi guys and girls wow this topic has brought up some wicked debate, love it! just back from a flight where there was, ironically, a brilliant example of this very topic. TR with this in to follow soon! there are argumants for both sides and no matter what the situation or how heated it becomes, i think its safe to say that it all comes down to respect, consideration and most of all communication. something that we all loose at times especially when tired, and trapping in a metal tube for 9 hours or so, overnight!!!

Cool debate! I'm 6 foot 5 and (at least!) 18 stone.
I regularly travel J, but also (having family spread across the world) more regularly travel in Y at my own cost, and I resent having the seat in front recline. For this very reason I am very careful and considerate when i recline my seat, and often don't bother despite the discomfort.
I will however be looking out for GJ's knee savers, and will use them without guilt in future.