Poor state of V-ROM

Just did LGW-LAS on V-ROM. Although I know these planes are due for some re-fitting work in terms of seats, I was amazed at the really poor standards inside the plane. Totally threadbare carpets held togther with gaffer tape, chewing gum everywhere, dirt and grime all over the place. Ok, I know VS wont want to spend much money on these old Alitalia craft, but surely, giving a plane a good 'Spring Clean' isnt beyond them?

I did a return MCO trip on G-VROM late last year & thought it was in pretty good nick actually, but this was in UC. In theory, the cleaners probably spend a little longer in the UC cabin (10 seconds per seat as opposed to 5 seconds per seat in Y?) on turnarounds.

Given how hard the LGW/MAN fleet is worked, there is probably only time to do a proper 'deep clean' of the aircraft when it goes in for maintenance checks. This in itself is a far from ideal situation.

James

[HighFlyer]

When we flew back from SFO a few weeks ago there were crumbs and cheerios around the edges in my suite (on G-VFAB). Pretty gross, and really not excusable.

Thanks,
Sarah

Originally posted by musicmanbrain
Ok, I know VS wont want to spend much money on these old Alitalia craft, but surely, giving a plane a good 'Spring Clean' isnt beyond them?

Not sure that is quite right. VS will of course maintain the a/c to a high standard in terms of cleanness inside the a/c was as well as with regards to maintenance.

The a/c were also never with AZ, they were ordered but not taken up. That does not make them worse aircraft.


It is important to remember how hard the LGW fleet is worked. I am in the middle of doing a bit of research on the VS LGW fleet (yes I am that sad and yes I will publish it on VF for all to see) the results I have so far are a very interesting read IMHO. To keep a 744 profitable it has to be in the air for something like 20-21 hours of the day. Couple that with the vast range of destinations ex LGW and the small fleet and often limited services available at some of the LGW destinations and you can begin to see that a good deep clean is not easily achieved.

ISTBC but someone posted on here saying a good deep clean takes four-five days. Clearly this is not easy to schedule in. With the arrival of an extra 343 to cover essential checks on the LGW 744 as they are now reaching 7 years old, I am sure a good deep clean will be done also as well as having all carpets replaced.

I take your point - but in the end - VS need to remember that passengers are paying to travel on their aircraft and therefore have an absolute right to expect them to be at least clean. Just because it costs money and takes time to clean them is absolutly no excuse for their poor state of cleanliness (after all, would you accept hiring a car that was filthy with the excuse 'sorry we didnt clean it but it costs money' or checking into a hotel room where they hadnt bothered to change the sheets from the last occupant because 'it takes too much time'). As for the LGW/MAN fleet being worked hard, honestly, VS only has itself to blame. VS chose to make them work that hard and should schedule time for planes to be cleaned.... its hardly rocket science!

Originally posted by willd

Originally posted by musicmanbrain
Ok, I know VS wont want to spend much money on these old Alitalia craft, but surely, giving a plane a good 'Spring Clean' isnt beyond them?

Not sure that is quite right. VS will of course maintain the a/c to a high standard in terms of cleanness inside the a/c was as well as with regards to maintenance.

Maintain maybe, but all airlines suffer pressure on time and cost when turning planes around. On our last holiday flight the no. 1 had to request his suite to be cleaned after boarding, this has happened to me before too ... tales of food, gum, worse in seat back pockets are common. Virgin has its bad moments in this regard and I think you're over kind about this.

That said, all aeroplanes also spend years in a cabin configuration / fit - some that I know, e.g. AA, have flight crews with duct tape on the drinks cart because things fall apart all the time and it's not uncommon even on AA first class to find bits of your seat held together with tape! VS is no different. Just means a refit is closer [:#].

Deep clean can be done in less than 8 hours, ours are frequently slotted in at outstations at which this service is available. External wash much the same, HKG is often used.

As Will correctly comments these aircraft although originally ordered by Alitalia, never actually operated for them. They withdrew from the purchase & opted for B777's. If my memory serves me correctly VS bought the aircraft & had acceptance checks & 'virginisation' carried out at ANZ & subsequently did a sale/lease back deal (i think with GECAS).

Originally posted by musicmanbrain
I take your point - but in the end - VS need to remember that passengers are paying to travel on their aircraft and therefore have an absolute right to expect them to be at least clean.

Oh how much do I agree with that comment[ii] I too had the misfortune to fly VROM rcently on the LGW-LAS route and was once again none too pleased with her appearance [:(] I've been bleating on for years on these fora about the difference in service/crew/cleanliness between the MAN/LGW and LHR fleets, and been just a tad put out at the soothing noises and 'there, there' comments. Nice to confirm that it wasn't just me being paranoid [:)]

For one wild moment i thought that the thread was about the poor state of the new V-ROOM. [:I][:I]

[Nottingham Nick]

It is a pity, but in an era when companies are always looking to cut back on costs, there are several 'easy options' when it comes to cutting corners.

Security, cleaning and catering are three that spring to mind - contracts are awarded to subcontractors offering the lowest bottom line, rather than those who would give the best service and the best value for their money.

I think this is yet another example of VS falling into this trap. The security aspect doesn't apply to them, but cleaning, catering, call centres, (some) out-sourced groundstaff and on board amenities / facilities etc. etc. all fit.

But they do have a great Clubhouse and check in area at LHR. [;)][8D]

Nick

Yeah - but the great clubhouse is no good if you are in economy (which a VAST majority of passengers are) - and as VROM flys from LGW, the Heathrow check in doesnt count!!! LOL.

VAST also flies from LGW/MAN (sorry, but could not resist that).

That said, you have a point musicmanbrian - VS clearly treat the leisure routes flown by the LGW/MAN aircraft differently to the LHR routes. It's been said many a time on here that even some of the charter airlines now offer better seat pitch & IFE than Virgin do in Y on these routes. 'Down the back in Economy', Virgin are riding on the reputation that once had as an airline that pushed the boundaries & offered a far superior product to that of their competitors, when the same is no longer the case.

James

Well, I nearly had a heart attack when I saw the subject line of this thread and misread it to refer to an alleged 'poor state' of our beloved LROM, as opposed to VROM. Such a thread topic would be unspeakable, as I am sure we would all agree!

Now that I have recovered my wits, I can state with vigor that airplanes should be clean and well-maintained.

Thank you for the chance to share this sentiment - interesting comments, as well.

TBR

Speaking from a crews perspective, the problem at LGW are the tight turnarounds, due to all the flights being very close together.
Quite often when I sign off the cleaning, the agent will apologise that they haven't had time to do all that should have been done, due to a/c coming in late, or a shortage of cleaning staff.
It's a bit of a catch 22 situation, do you delay the flight to make sure the a/c is gleaming (thereby causing knock-on delays for the next few days) or do you try to get the a/c away on time and clean it as best you can? I think we all know the answer.
Unfortunately, unlike BA we cant afford to have a spare a/c sitting around to enable the others to be maintained as they should be.
However, that said, you are absolutely right, the customers should be boarding a nice clean servicable a/c and LGW does suffer more than LHR due to the a/cs intensive flying schedule. What I would ask is that if your seat is dirty or there's anything else you see in a state of disrepair, please advise the FSM, so we can document it, as the cleaners are answerable and things like dirty tray tables etc are unacceptable as these are basic things that the cleaners have to do, no matter how short the turnaround. If there are continued reports of poor cleaning then virgin will address it with the cleaning company. But if no-one reports it then virgin wont know about it, and nothing will get done.
Hopefully with the arrival of the Etihad a/c things will improve, especially as we now seem set to keep her for several years.

p.s Has anyone seen the state of the cabin of an mco a/c after a nine hour flight with 450 adults and children - it's not pretty!

Ok am trying very hard to stop this descending into the usual LHR v LGW debate or J v Y debate.

Originally posted by musicmanbrain
I take your point - but in the end - VS need to remember that passengers are paying to travel on their aircraft and therefore have an absolute right to expect them to be at least clean.

To an extent. We should not accept a lower service but we cannot expect something for nothing. If we wish for the a/c to be spotless then we must accept there will be an increase in ticket prices to allow for a spare clean a/c to be sat on the ground at LGW.

As for the LGW/MAN fleet being worked hard, honestly, VS only has itself to blame. VS chose to make them work that hard and should schedule time for planes to be cleaned.... its hardly rocket science!

You miss the point, for an airline to profitable its aircraft must be in the air as often as possible. If not, then no airline. The reason why the fleet at LGW is worked harder is also due to the destinations on offer, all the a/c arrive and leave in a four hour time frame. Unlike LHR there is no slack with early evening arrives from India or Asia for example. I am sure you would be pretty annoyed if your flight to LAS was re-scheduled for a 9pm arrival to allow for a good clean.


The only way for VS to notice is to vote with your feet.

Originally posted by virginboy747
What I would ask is that if your seat is dirty or there's anything else you see in a state of disrepair, please advise the FSM, so we can document it, as the cleaners are answerable and things like dirty tray tables etc are unacceptable as these are basic things that the cleaners have to do, no matter how short the turnaround. If there are continued reports of poor cleaning then virgin will address it with the cleaning company. But if no-one reports it then virgin wont know about it, and nothing will get done.

p.s Has anyone seen the state of the cabin of an mco a/c after a nine hour flight with 450 adults and children - it's not pretty!

Here is the main point from Virginboy747, did you speak to the crew about it? Was it documented, I know we are good but we are not Psychic! The tight turnarounds for LGW/MAN fleet is an obvious issue, but if you are willing to have your flight delayed for it to the aircraft to be deep cleaned every day, then feel free to write to the customer relations, or the men in charge, I'm sure they can do more, than us on here.

Originally posted by Boeingcat
did you speak to the crew about it? Was it documented, I know we are good but we are not Psychic!

Many pax do not like to complain to the crew, Barry.
They know that they are not responsible for the cleaning.

However I agree the FSM is the person to deal with the issue. Done in the right way, it may actually assist them to solve a problem that they already recognise. It should support their case if a few pax actually do register (and document) their concern.

You'll be surprised at the number who like to complain to us. But it was the same in my old line of work, unless we are told, we can't do anything about it.

It's a simple case of when we are told it's a thanks for telling us, at least we can then pass it on, even if we can't do much about it at 39000ft. With the 452 pax on the LGW fleet, and no-one mentions it to us, then we won't know as we are trying to serve and look after 452 people!

[mitchja]

Yes but I've mentioned things on-board (and post flight) in the past and quite frankly received poor responses in both cases.

Example 1 On a Y flight SYD>HKG, I noticed none of the bulk-head seats where occupied, so I moved, only to find that none of the IFE screens where working (stupidly poor design of the V:Port IFE screen lock position where the LCD part of the screen faces outwards under the front of the seat where it's going to get kicked and knocked etc)...anyway on reporting this to a crew member the response back (after shrugging their shoulders) was 'Well that's why those seats are all blocked'

Example 2 On a very full B744 in PE (old config on upper deck) coming back from MIA and my seat was falling apart (table was broken, the IFE control holder was not even attached to the seat, the lumber support wasn't working and the seat wouldn't stay fully reclined). On mentioning this to crew, the response was 'What do you want me to do about it as there's no spare seats anywhere on the A/C'

I got the distinct impression the crew member thought I was trying it on. Yes, granted the flight was full and there where crew down but responses back like that really make me wonder what's the point of saying anything in the first place.

The response from customer relations on the second example was even more laughable as they made a point of telling me that nobody had yet made any negative comments about the new leather PE seats (which obviously weren't even on the old config LHR 744's).

Yes I know as crew, you can't do anything about it at 39,000ft but you could at least try and look like you are interested and are willing to listen.

Regards

Hi James, I can only apologise for the reactions you got on board, that is certainly not how we're trained to respond to passenger's concerns.
Certainly for the second incident we are empowered to offer you some form of compensation on board, either miles or duty free, especially due to the number of problems you encountered with your seat.
I know you probably didn't want to make a fuss, but if the crew-member was so off-hand then you should have asked to speak to the FSM. At the very least the FSM needs to know so that therelevant paperwork is completed to eneble the seat to be fixed on the ground.
I hate to hear about crew who speak to passengers like this, it does tend to undermine the hard work of the majority.
As for customer relations what can I say!

James, with ref your two examples. Example 1 was indicative of many airlines in that they won't knowingly sell seats with inop IFE. The crew member was perhaps a little uninterested. FYI, none of the screens working in a row is caused by the SEB (seat box) & not each screen.

With regards to example 2, as virginboy747 states, the only way to get defects rectified is for the crew to pass the information on to the FSM & for the FSM to write it up in the Cabin Defect Log. Your seat sounds like it needed a bit of TLC by the engineers, but they can only fix things they are told about.

I agree that telling the FSM about poor cleanliness is probably the way to go. However, I think that crew are worked pretty hard anyway and as there is absolutly nothing they can do about poor cleaning or tight scheduling during a flight I am reluctant to bother them. After all, if cabin crew are busy worrying about things that are not solveable by them, then the fantastic customer service standards that they set in the air might slip as even VS crew cant do everything!!! I take all the points about scheduling - but I totally maintain that VS knew that turn arounds would be tight when they did all the planning and scheduling and therefore that can not be used as an excuse. This issue is not solveable really - I guess that if we continue to fly with VS from LGW, then dirty planes are going to become more common simply because VS are scheulding to the very tight minute. Deffinately a case of putting the bank balance before the customer (or crew!).

[honey lamb]

Originally posted by musicmanbrain
I agree that telling the FSM about poor cleanliness is probably the way to go. However, I think that crew are worked pretty hard anyway and as there is absolutly nothing they can do about poor cleaning or tight scheduling during a flight I am reluctant to bother them. After all, if cabin crew are busy worrying about things that are not solveable by them, then the fantastic customer service standards that they set in the air might slip as even VS crew cant do everything!!! I take all the points about scheduling - but I totally maintain that VS knew that turn arounds would be tight when they did all the planning and scheduling and therefore that can not be used as an excuse. This issue is not solveable really - I guess that if we continue to fly with VS from LGW, then dirty planes are going to become more common simply because VS are scheulding to the very tight minute. Deffinately a case of putting the bank balance before the customer (or crew!).

Have you actually read any of the responses to this thread? For example, Virginboy 747 has said:

What I would ask is that if your seat is dirty or there's anything else you see in a state of disrepair, please advise the FSM, so we can document it, as the cleaners are answerable and things like dirty tray tables etc are unacceptable as these are basic things that the cleaners have to do, no matter how short the turnaround. If there are continued reports of poor cleaning then virgin will address it with the cleaning company. But if no-one reports it then virgin wont know about it, and nothing will get done.

Similarly Boeingcat:

You'll be surprised at the number who like to complain to us. But it was the same in my old line of work, unless we are told, we can't do anything about it.

It's a simple case of when we are told it's a thanks for telling us, at least we can then pass it on, even if we can't do much about it at 39000ft. With the 452 pax on the LGW fleet, and no-one mentions it to us, then we won't know as we are trying to serve and look after 452 people!

Of course it's not solveable if you don't say anything.

You yourself say:

as there is absolutly nothing they can do about poor cleaning ....... during a flight I am reluctant to bother them.

They have already said that they can log it and bring it to the attention of the powers that be who in turn an bring it to the attention of the cleaning company. Presumably they are on contract and with enough complaints they may well find their contract is not renewed. If you fail to say anything you must take some responsibility for the lack of cleanliness in the cabin.

But it could be a case that the cleaners aren't doing their job properly, so if it is reported to the FSM it will be documented and can then be addressed with the cleaning company.
Only then can virgin decide whether it's due to tight turnarounds or lazy cleaners.

I'm off on my first ever LGW VS experience in a few weeks. Can I expect my PE seat to be in pieces/so little padding that you can feel the frame? I've read this a few times now.