Second IAD Flight Pulled

Got an e-mail today kindly informing me the early flight from LHR to IAD in Sept. has been terminated.
Does anyone know why?
Gosh this screws up my US flight segment. Now I have to either spend the night in Washington or throw away my ticket and rebook with another airline to get me out that night.

Doesn't VS reprotect you? If anything, I'd get in touch with Ag FC and get them to help out?

S.

the 2nd flight to IAD is seasonal, but it sounds like it's been pulled early. I can think of worse places to be stuck for the evening though. Love Reston!

It appears only certain days are affected as both VS21/22 & VS55/56 are in the system on the random days I checked right up until end of Summer 08. Whats interesting though is that on the days I found that only one flight operates (some Mondays), its the VS21/22 which is cancelled.

Could be for many reasons, such as A343 fleet requirements, low bookings on those specific VS21/22s etc.

AF

Due to light loads certain servies have been cancelled.
VS 21/22 cancelled on September 10/16/17/22/23/24/30 and October 01/05/07/09/13/16/20
VS 55/56 cancelled on September 03/09/11/19/21/22
Other adhoc cancellations include BOM and MAN-MCO
With the high cost of oil if the plane is empty it's extremely costly to operate. Think this will become a regular occurence now. If there's no profit to be made the flight will get cancelled.

Thanks for that info. virginboy. Do you know which of the MAN-MCO services are affected?

[Nottingham Nick]

Thanks virginboy.

As Bill says, any more info you could let us have would be gratefully received.

Whilst it will be frustrating for anyone booked on a cancelled flight, I can see the logic in not flying loss making planes.

Nick

[mcmbenjamin]

Funny thing is that the CH will still be open as Korean Air, LH F, South Africa and others use it.

[Neil]

Originally posted by Bill S
Thanks for that info. virginboy. Do you know which of the MAN-MCO services are affected?

All flight cancellations are listed on the VS site, in the pax information section. IIRC correctly the MAN-MCO flights that have been cancelled at the 73/74 for a 2 week period in mid Jan '09, with pax re-booked on the 75/76.

Neil

Originally posted by Neil

Originally posted by Bill S
Thanks for that info. virginboy. Do you know which of the MAN-MCO services are affected?

All flight cancellations are listed on the VS site, in the pax information section. IIRC correctly the MAN-MCO flights that have been cancelled at the 73/74 for a 2 week period in mid Jan '09, with pax re-booked on the 75/76.

Neil

Neil
Not sure that all canx are listed.
For example, the VS website only shows 2 IAD flights canx. but virginboy lists many.

Hi guys,other cancelled flights as follows:-

VS 350 - BOM - September 16/18/22/25/29 and October 01/06/09 - PAX reprotected on flights next day

VS 73 - MCO - January 30 and February 06/27 - PAX reprotected on VS 75 on same day

Originally posted by virginboy747
Due to light loads certain servies have been cancelled........

.........Think this will become a regular occurence now. If there's no profit to be made the flight will get cancelled.

This is quite an alarming & worrying development [:(]

If these ad-hoc cancellations continue, it's going to lead to quite a bit of uncertainty & loss of confidence when making bookings, as you really won't know if your flight will operate or not.

While VS will reprotect passengers onto other flights, there are many for whom the Departure or Arrival time is critical & make bookings on certain flights for that reason alone. So a change of schedule, would cause major disruption.

Take for instance an upcoming trip ÒMrs KeredÓ & myself are talking in September.

We're booked on the VS55 on the 23rd to IAD, which thankfully is so far operating as per the schedule. But we're flying in DUB-LHR on that morning with BMI, on a separate ticket / PNR & if we were changed by VS onto the earlier flight, our flight into LHR will not get us there early enough for the VS21.

So we would be faced with forfeiting our BMI flights, as they are non-changeable / non-refundable & having to re-book for the evening before & then add an overnight stay in a LHR hotel.

Major hassle [n]

Also, the OP said that he received an eMail from VS stating that his flight has been changed. That's all well & good provided VS have your eMail address, from having booked with them online, or directly. But in our case the booking has been made through our Travel Agent & to the best of my knowledge, my eMail address is not in the booking. So I can't be sure that I'd get advance warning of any changes from VS.

I'll be going into the booking on the VS website, to see just what contact details they have for me & see if I can ad my personal eMail. Were it not for this thread, I'd know nothing of these potential changes. So I'll be watching developments very closely indeed.

As I said at the outset, these ad-hoc changes could make for a great deal of uncertainty & loss of faith in the integrity of one's bookings.

I understand why VS are making these changes, but surely if loads are low for a route, such as LHR-IAD, a more structured re-schedule would be a better way of dealing with it. For instance have the 21/22 operate on every other day & the 55/56 operate the remaining days.

That way at least passengers could book with confidence.

Worrying times ahead in air travel I think folks & I fear this sort of thing is but the beginning.

This starts to highlight the weakness of VS versus BA or UA for instance. Whilst I completely appreciate the situation from VS' standpoint and the desire to reduce losses by cancelling individual flights, the repercussions may be greater than they realise. As VS operates only once per day to most destinations, if a flight is cancelled, passengers are moved to VS flights a day earlier or later. Even on routes with a second flight, such as IAD, the alternative (VS55) is useless for me because it gets into IAD too late. So, rather than chancing it, more and more travellers may switch to other carriers with multiple frequencies, where if one is cancelled, there are several more to choose from on the same day (in IAD's case 3-4 with BA and 4 with UA).

VS better be careful in this game, or they will lose more money from people not booking in the first place than they save on cancelling individual flights.

AF

[Darren Wheeler]

But how long before the likes of BA start cutting the frequency of some routes. In the current conditions any route where the total pax carried per day is less than the total number of seats available on that route per day will have a flight cut. Simple economics.

Originally posted by Darren Wheeler
But how long before the likes of BA start cutting the frequency of some routes. In the current conditions any route where the total pax carried per day is less than the total number of seats available on that route per day will have a flight cut. Simple economics.

mmm, I understand your post, but I 'think' the point kered was making was those of us who have connections of any kind will now start to get a little wary incase the VA flights is moved. As I have just experienced VA have very little or no sympathy if you miss any connections not on the same pnr - status or no status.

In my case, my connections from Scotland would probably be on BA so would probably afford some sort of protection if the main part of your journey was changed.

Yes, definately tough times ahead, for everyone.

A sign of the times unfortunately, and I wonder how long BMI will continue with their ghost planes ex LHR....

As to your questions as to when BA is going to start doing the same, looks like the same is about to hit, and with more uncertainty than VA...

A few links for you all on the BA purge thats about to hit over winter scheduling, and again a lot of PAX are going to be tied up with this...

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/b ... 407165.ece

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel ... 396421.ece

So there you have it, even with a carrier like BA you're still going to have cancelled flights. Virgin are only doing what every other carrier is doing due to the increasing oil prices.

Thanks for the extra info. virgin boy.

Oil prices are high.
With higher prices fewer pax will fly.
With oil prices remaining high there are only two alternatives for the whole industry.
Go Bust.
Cut capacity.

Cutting capacity allows prices to be increased and also increases the load factor.
Expect full aircraft & higher fares - especially high fares if you book late.

In some ways the two alternatives may be the same. Some airlines go bust - that cuts capacity.
I'd rather see the industry manage the capacity cut as VS & BA are attempting rather than be forced by bankruptcy.

Totally agree Bill - reminds me of the early 90's to fly or to video conference

We are undoubtedly in a viscious circle which if the analysts are right is likely to be with us for at least the next 12-18 months.

And its not just VA and BA cutting their routes, Ryanair, Easyjet and others are doing it already as well - other international carriers are also doing the same or adding fuel premiums.

I for one would prefer a little inconvenience if it means that airlines remain in existence and thus at least create some competition. Whilst fares undoubtedly will (and have) rise, the competitiveness may at least keep things on an even keel... only time will tell alas.

A final note, at least VA has had the courtesy to announce the flight cancellations and protect their passengers, it would appear that BA are still to work this out, but ex LGW looks like a severe casualty (so I have heard from the grapevine already)

I can totally understand where VS (& other airlines) are coming from on this. They can't be expected to fly around in half empty planes, given the cost of doing so.

But it's the uncertainly that it has been put into the mix, by these ad-hoc cancellations that worries & concerns me greatly [:(]

I know they have to start somewhere with cancellations, but if they could just come & say that we are reducing capacity on certain routes due to costsÉ.blah, blah, blah.

As a result on our Washington route, from date X we will operate the VS21/22 on Mon, Wed, Fri & Sun. & the VS55/56 will operate Tue, Thu & Sat. Or some such arrangement, then at least we would all know where we stand & could book with confidence.

But as it is, in essence they are more or less saying that your flight will operate, provided that there's enough of passengers to make it profitable. So how could you book under those conditions ??

Take our trip in September to IAD. We're booked in ÒZÓ ex LHR. The booking was made several months ago & thousands of Euro have been paid over to VS. The conditions of that fare, are such that there are no changes or refunds available. We're totally tied into the dates & times of travel & that's perfectly fine with me, as I know we're happy to travel on those dates.

However, what they're now saying is, that you give us your money & if you want to change or cancel your flight, well we're going to keep your money & sell you seat to someone else. But if we don't have enough of passengers on that flight, we may not operate the flight !!!

That's all very well & good, except that we have connector flights between DUB & LHR booked with BMI, also non changeable / non-refundable & if VS reprotect us onto another flight, our connections won't work out. So we will have to forfeit that booking, go make another one & if put on an earlier VS flight, perhaps have to take an extra day off work, travel to LHR the night before & add a hotel stay at Heathrow to the cost of everything.

Now I'm all for the airlines doing what they have to in order to survive & having to suffer a bit of hassle in the process, but there's inconvenience & then there's inconvenience !!! As it is we now don't know where we stand.

As one poster pointed out, the VS web site only lists two IAD cancellations for September. But from the inside information on here, it looks far more widespread than that. So when are we going to be told ?? I don't even know if VS have my personal eMail details, as our booking was made through a Travel Agent. So I would be relying on the various agencies that lie between me & VS to filter the information down the line.

We have another trip planned to MCO for next March, which I was going to book later this year, but I'm going to be slow to tie up several thousand euro with VS, along with connector flights & hotel bookings, if this uncertainty continues.

I know it's going to take time to sort, but if only they could come out & say.. Òlooks lads, form this date onwards, this is what's going to happen & this is what we're going to do for you, if your affectedÓ

Then at least we could book with confidence. Until then though, I for one am going to be very slow to hand over money to VS & tie myself into a heavily restrictive ÒZÓ class booking.

Hey if it were my business I'd do the same. But now I'm out a day of work then $200 for the change fee from US Air then a Hotel, then at least dinner. This all works out to be less than a couple of dollars here and there. Would I be out of line in asking for some miles in compensation?

I think you should seek from VA the cost incured by their forced move of your flight. Speak to Customer Services If I was you

Originally posted by virginboy747
So there you have it, even with a carrier like BA you're still going to have cancelled flights. Virgin are only doing what every other carrier is doing due to the increasing oil prices.

Yes, but BA are stating in advance that they are going to cancel specific flights during W08 (as are others), so its not a guessing game as to whether the flight I have already booked is going to operate or not.

And BA has higher frequencies on most routes, so if they cancel 50% of flights between IAD and LHR, I still have two flights each day to choose from. And on the BOM route, if BA and 9W both cancelled 50% of their daily flights I can still fly on their remaining flight that day, where as with VS there is no option except the prior or following days.

As a traveller who is flying to arrive somewhere on a specific day and has to be back home on a specific day, I don't have any intention of playing the guessing game as to whether my flight that I've booked and paid for will actually operate. Virgin will just lose my custom.

Despite high oil prices and lower loads, these are 'scheduled' airlines and if they throw the schedules in the bin as and when they choose, they lose all credibility with the higher fare paying passengers they are relying on for their revenues.

AF

[ChuckC]

Originally posted by virginboy747
So there you have it, even with a carrier like BA you're still going to have cancelled flights. Virgin are only doing what every other carrier is doing due to the increasing oil prices.

Which is worse? Proactively cancel a flight with a really low pax load? Or, fly it, waste a lot of fuel and decide to cancel the entire schedule?

Carriers the world over are adapting to a situation with little modern precedent. While the situation is worrisome VS' actions now may save more harsh steps later. Let's hope so.

The problems for pax in having to reschedule flights, etc. are going to take some adjustment, by both the airlines and we, the traveling public. Airlines need to give us as much notice as possible of canceled flights and, though I hate to say it, until the crisis is resolved and/or the industry adapts, we will all need to rethink our reliance on 'booking and forgetting.'

Chuck-

Originally posted by AtlanticFlyer

Originally posted by virginboy747
So there you have it, even with a carrier like BA you're still going to have cancelled flights. Virgin are only doing what every other carrier is doing due to the increasing oil prices.

Yes, but BA are stating in advance that they are going to cancel specific flights during W08 (as are others), so its not a guessing game as to whether the flight I have already booked is going to operate or not.

And BA has higher frequencies on most routes, so if they cancel 50% of flights between IAD and LHR, I still have two flights each day to choose from. And on the BOM route, if BA and 9W both cancelled 50% of their daily flights I can still fly on their remaining flight that day, where as with VS there is no option except the prior or following days.

As a traveller who is flying to arrive somewhere on a specific day and has to be back home on a specific day, I don't have any intention of playing the guessing game as to whether my flight that I've booked and paid for will actually operate. Virgin will just lose my custom.

Despite high oil prices and lower loads, these are 'scheduled' airlines and if they throw the schedules in the bin as and when they choose, they lose all credibility with the higher fare paying passengers they are relying on for their revenues.

Absolutely agree, it is not simply a matter of putting you on another flight and that's the end of it. If you are put on a different flight and this means a missed connection without sufficient compensation (say Vs picks up the tab for a connecting flight, hotels etc.. thereby no additional expenses to the passenger) then I will rethink as to whether to book with them for those flights that I take where the end destination is not one of VS's routes.