Many CC upset about changes.

Some very angry comments on cabincrew.com about reduction in rest days down route.
Even some talk of strike action.
While strike may not be very likely, there are clearly some very upset crew up there with some safety issues being raised about crew being overtired on return trips.

[Darren Wheeler]

Looks like a few are talking of quitting, again.

Nice to see that somethings don't change on there. Anyone trying to be balanced is immediately shouted down as 'management' and the fact that all airlines are making changes to save money and avoid going the same way as Oasis, Maxijet, Silverjet, Zoom etc. etc. is conveniently forgotten.

OK, as one post puts it, 'it may be legal but that doesn't make it right' has a point. Unfortunately in the current climate where 10% of the workforce expect to be made redundant in the next 12 months, there have to be sacrifices.

STRIKE! STRIKE! STRIKE!

Sorry, couldn't help it... [;)]

[Darren Wheeler]

in about 10 weeks time...... [}:)]

The way my luck's going, I'd hardly be surprised.

Only on the LHR-MIA route!!

[Decker]

I don't think any crew object to having to work HARDER in the current environment, I think they are objecting to the removal of the main benefit that caused them to join VS and be paid

As this discussion has the potential for strong feelings we'd just like to remind members that civility is a trademark of V-Flyer.

Edited as Milehigh has wrapped it up beautifully [^]

Sounds to me a bit like VS trying to have ones cake and eating it ... I am not surprised crew are angry. That said, crew are not always first in line to see cut backs, I understand there is a hiring freeze in place in many departments ...

However, if I had a similar mindset as VS management, I'd hit at cost with everything I've got at the moment under the oh so boringly used by everyone (and here too) 'the industry is in the mire at the moment, we must expect A, B, C and D (insert whichever news story you like!)'. Look at what is rumoured over at BA for their crew ...

To be honest I would say crew are more angry about this that they were during the pay talks. We are being told to work more hours, have less time off between shifts and be paid less. Feom a company who just increased profits form 6m to 60m in a year. We all know times are hard and there may be some cutbacks but the overwhelming feeling is thatthis has gone too far now. Please dont critisise us for wanting to maintain our working conditions. We are going to get 16hrs in Hong kong now after a SYD flight then operate a 13 hr HK to LHR so thats almost 24 hrs work with about 12hrs in a hotel between shifts. It dont feel fair to me.

Edited as Milehigh has wrapped it up beautifully [^]

time to lock this one me thinks

[buns]

Originally posted by Tinkerbelle
I honestly believe that this should not be discussed on a public forum. As already stated, we have our own internal forum on the VS intranet which is a hive of activity on this subject.

I find it sad that many people make their opinions on us due to reading of all things 'cabincrew.com' - one of the most inaccurate places you could get any information on - it just seems to be the same few posting rubbish on there to try and cause some hysteria and the same few who have nothing to do with Virgin jumping on the bandwagon.

Can this thread be locked and that way all discussion on this subject can be kept within the company?

Tinkerbelle
I can understand where you are coming from. Whilst comments here on V-flyer have been civil and have not hyped the situation, in respect of what you ask i will lock this topic to allow time for the time being to allow the Mods to consider further.

buns

[The Moderators]

This topic is now unlocked, for all to add their views.

Could I just say, that this is one of the most emotive subjects we are likely to discuss. We are talking about dedicated crew members who claim that their employment conditions have been trampled on and their allowances greatly reduced, with little or no consultation or consideration of their feelings. Also no obvious involvement of the unions / staff organisations.

On the other hand we have an airline who are trying desperately to stay in business in the face of ever increasing costs, and who are seeing their competitors going out of business in droves.

To say their is no easy solution, is the understatement of the century.

We accept that VS staffers don't like to see their internal 'dirty washing' aired in public. Since the pay dispute, you now have VERBal where the more confidential and delicate issues can be debated.

Please remember, V-Flyer is an independent site with no VS staffers among the mods and, whilst we welcome all input from VS employees, we are essentially the voice of the customer.

Please keep the discussions civil. Robust debate is encouraged, but mud-slinging, insults and cheap shots will not be tolerated on either side.

The mods.

I've just arrived in MIA and discussed this topic with most of my crew. Rather than being angry, pretty much everyone was simply resigned to the fact that this was going to happen. Every day we are seeing airlines going bust (indeed we are involved with helping get their stranded crews home) or filing for bankrupcy, and although we may not like the changes, I think that most crew can see the bigger picture and would rather keep our jobs. However, if this is just the first wave of shorter trip patterns and the company decides to say cut LAX SFO and LAS to one nighters (as they could do) then I think a large amount of crew will probably leave as the job just wont be worth doing and it will be too exhausting. So although there probably are a few militant crew blowing it out of proportion, from what I have seen, most of us accept that this has to happen to keep the airline profitable, as long as it doesn't escalate into minimum rest on every trip.

I dont think this is a case of VS trying to work their crews harder, as such. As I understand it, Cabin Crew are limited to 900 hours per year working time (which I assume means flight duty time). What VS are trying to cut back on is the down-route rest times (& associated allowance payments).

This is certainly a contentious issue given that the Cabin Crew are the face of the airline. Are VS proposing the same reduced down-route stop-over times for the flight deck crews, who are ultimately responsible for the safety of the aircraft?

As a traveller, there is no way I would want to fly out to, say, Hong Kong one day, have one night in a hotel then fly back to the UK the following day. My body-clock would be all over the place & I would not be able to give 100% good service on the return flight.

I appreciate that all airlines are affected by the current high oil prices. That said, you have to be careful when making cutbacks that may affect your crew's ability to deliver the product & service to your customers. There is many an American legacy carrier flying that provides very indifferent service to it's passengers - do VS really want to join the same ranks?

James

Firsly I want to remind all crew that V-flyer is a customer forum and any detailed discussions should be directed through VERBal and the Union.

I also felt that as a long term member on V-flyer I should write a few words.

As we are all aware times are difficult for all airlines at the moment and it is understandable that to rise above the economic difficulties we need to be trim. In our personal lives with the costs of fuel,food morgage payments etc rising, It would be a question of can I justify both Sky sports and Setanta subscriptions. For the airlines tough decisions also need to be made.

I don't believe that Operations intended to upset the crew with the new trip patterns but merely saw ways of making efficiencies.

The response on internal Forums has been 500+ posts and 25,000+ hits in 3 days of the announcement, which shows the feelings on the subject.

All crew are aware of the environmental issues surrounding airlines and also want to see the business succeed as it is their jobs at the end of the day. what I believe is the issue is how with such little rest with a 8 hr timezone difference will effect their performance of customer service and Safety duties.

The proposals are only directed at cabin Crew as the flight crew will remain as at present.

I am sure that that the UNION and management will come to an agreement and there should be no reason for customers to worry about industrial action.

As crew we enjoy spending time talking to our customers and providing you with exceeding service within our control, however If these new trip patterns came into effect then our energy would be much lower and probably wouldn't feel like this after only 14-15 hr duty 16 hours rest then another 14-15 duty.

Unlike earlier in the year when the paydeal was causing problems, this has upset many more crew and it is SAFETY which seems to be the issue. One which I am sure everyone agrees has to be the number one priority when aviation is concerned. This is why I am confident that managers will listen to crew who currently do the trips at the moment and can report on tiredness before any changes are made, and hopefully reverse the decision.

I am sure that everyone on this forum is here because they enjoy flying with Virgin Atlantic, we all know times are tough! As well as the economy and fuel prices we are also having to deal with open skies, and now BA/AA are proposing stonger links which is not to the advantage of smaller airlines like ourselves. we have to hope the European Parliment can see this. If you love Virgin and want to help please write to your European MP or regualr MP asking to stop the BA/AA antitrust proposals.

Meanwhile I would still urge Staff to keep the comments on internal communication channels but look forward to continue reading views from our customer

Well said

[Bazz]

Galley Guy I have removed your two earlier posts as they referred to a post later in the thread which was confusing and also they added nothing to the discussion after your edits. You have also indicted your appreciation for milehigh's contribution in your subsequent post.

I am sure many of the crew appreciate the need for VS to make savings where available, to help sustain and eventually grow the business.

If I were crew one of issues I would have is losing a perk of my job. As a member of Virgins cabin crew, you accept a low wage + benefits as conditions of your employment.

Perhaps if this reduction in benefit was known at the time of the pay deals, the pay deal discussions would not have reached the conclusion they did.

It seems pretty accepted that Virgins cabin crew pay is lousy, however the benefits or perks of the job helped to counter the poor pay. Losing what I imagine is the biggest perk in many crews eyes, is a real blow.

It is now reported that the Union is involved.

new working patterns .. not discussed with the union, compromise safety .... nothing more than Òpenny pinchingÓ.

If no agreement ..... the union is likely to take further action.

[Nottingham Nick]

Better late than never. I thought that Unite were just going to sit back and allow the changes to happen, without a challenge.

Nick

[preiffer]

Let's hope they don't make a complete and utter farce of the whole situation like they did when they screwed up the pay negotiations debacle....

What pay issue? I must have missed it...

GJ

Well, I don't know, but it seems to me that almost all of us who work for organisations have grouches. I work for local government, where the union has been in salary negotiation/dispute since March this year, with no end in sight. Huge re-structure has taken place, resulting in a lot of people being moved/regraded for no apparent reason. The pay isn't good, there is no(regardless of what the press will have you believe)gold-plated pension) - in fact, we get no perks at all.

I'd give my right arm for such travel perks - but thenagain, if I wer on the other side of the fence, perhaps I'd think my lot is cushy...... which it sure ain't....