I survived the Alitalia five - on facebook

Originally posted by queenofsky
I have news for VS management: most flight attendants, except new-hires, think their passengers are 'chavs'

How can you defend their actions .....

Originally posted by queenofsky
(whatever that means).

.... when you don't even know what it means [?][?][?]

David

Originally posted by queenofsky
I have news for VS management: most flight attendants, except new-hires, think their passengers are 'chavs'

Perhaps so, but there's a big difference between what cabin crew think and what they say! No-one is arguing that cabin crew aren't allowed to have views; the problem is with when and where they express them.

Originally posted by queenofsky
Hey guys! Remember me? I was fired from Delta because of my blog 4 years ago.

Perhaps that was fully deserved then.

Originally posted by queenofsky
Do they really think this action will GAIN them business?

Perhaps the alternative is to lose business?

Originally posted by queenofsky
I have news for VS management: most flight attendants, except new-hires, think their passengers are 'chavs' (whatever that means).

Really, and from what exalted position do you look upon me from? I tend to view people as equals, shame you don't.

Originally posted by queenofsky
... problem without firing them and without involving the press. A lot of people may agree with their action, but many more disagree.

Really, VS involved the press ... the rest of your post is just ridiculous. Good luck with the screenplay.

Originally posted by queenofsky
Hey guys! Remember me? I was fired from Delta because of my blog 4 years ago.

I'm highly disappointed in VS over this matter.

My advice: REINSTATE BEFORE ITÓS TOO LATE!

This was NOT a smart PR move.

Not at all. As much as you are entitled to your opinion, many people are fired from many different companies for many different reasons and the only common ground that compares to your case is that the misconduct was online.

Management have to be seen acting proactively and although the consequence may have been harsh it was in their best interests to set an example. Now that a BA Facebook story has been brought up, it wouldn't be a shock if their P45's were also wrote out.

Would passengers boycott an airline for taking disciplinary action on staff who question their safety standards? I wouldn't.

[|)]

... & I'm not management! ;]

I am sure there will be lots of people who previously worked for XL lining up to have the chance of one of the 13 now vacant positions.

[Darren Wheeler]

Originally posted by queenofsky
Hey guys! Remember me? I was fired from Delta because of my blog 4 years ago.

I'm highly disappointed in VS over this matter.

Do they really think this action will GAIN them business? When I was fired from Delta under similar circumstances, I received hundreds of messages from people saying they would NEVER fly Delta again! And most of them were Brits! (And many were V-Flyers!)

I have news for VS management: most flight attendants, except new-hires, think their passengers are 'chavs' (whatever that means). So, unless they want to be constantly training new f/a's, they need to figure out a way to deal with this problem without firing them and without involving the press. A lot of people may agree with their action, but many more disagree.

My advice: REINSTATE BEFORE ITÓS TOO LATE!

This was NOT a smart PR move. This could snowball into book and TV and movie deals about what it's REALLY like to work at VS. I'd tell you to look up the Businessweek.com article from last summer about my case wherein they determine that DL overreacted, but I've got better things to do... like work on my screenplay and TV show pilot. (Thanks for posting my press release, guys!)

Now forgive me if my memory is a little rusty (approaching 40 does that)...

You and Delta parted company because they objected to some photos on your blog where you were, ahem, showing just a bit more skin than normal. It wasn't so much the photos or that they were on your blog, but that you were in uniform that was the sticking point. Personally I found the whole dismissal issue there totally stupid and did very little for Deltas' image - Chapter 11 soon followed. Coincidence? [:?]

The Virgin 12 (or 13) is a tad different. Yes, calling pax 'chavs' isn't the best way to promote customer loyalty but the real damage was saying the planes were unsafe.

Comments like '4 engine changes in a year', 'falling apart' and 'infested with cockroaches' is going to get the attention of management and the CAA/FAA. What company is going to sit by when crew (little distinction between flight and cabin) say planes are deathtraps?

The more I hear about this from ex-colleagues, the more confused I get!!

It seems not everyone wrote about safety issues or infestations. In my humble opinion VS seem to have sacked by association. For those who didn't write anything about safety/engines/bugs that were so gloriously quoted in The Sun, I do not think the punishment fits the crime.

After all what of the other people who joined the group? Surely it can be argued they obviously had the same feelings as the group starter by joining? Are they being punished??

It's simply that the more I'm learning about this incident, the more there is to question.

But in the end, who are we to judge what these 13 people did. Not only do we not sit on the board of directors, but those in glass houses and all that....

[preiffer]

Originally posted by queenofsky
Hey guys! Remember me? I was fired from Delta because of my blog 4 years ago.

I'm highly disappointed in VS over this matter.

Do they really think this action will GAIN them business? When I was fired from Delta under similar circumstances, I received hundreds of messages from people saying they would NEVER fly Delta again! And most of them were Brits! (And many were V-Flyers!)

I have news for VS management: most flight attendants, except new-hires, think their passengers are 'chavs' (whatever that means). So, unless they want to be constantly training new f/a's, they need to figure out a way to deal with this problem without firing them and without involving the press. A lot of people may agree with their action, but many more disagree.

My advice: REINSTATE BEFORE ITÓS TOO LATE!

This was NOT a smart PR move. This could snowball into book and TV and movie deals about what it's REALLY like to work at VS. I'd tell you to look up the Businessweek.com article from last summer about my case wherein they determine that DL overreacted, but I've got better things to do... like work on my screenplay and TV show pilot. (Thanks for posting my press release, guys!)

Had you not shown the naivety, arrogance, and fundamental misunderstanding of the terms of your employment contract within a corporate entity - MAYBE you would still have a job with Delta now. [ii]

Good luck with your own new enterprises (screenplay etc). Perhaps when one of the people working on YOUR project starts publicly posting about how awful it is, or how elements are stolen from other authors, or how many lies are in there (whether true or not), you'll get at least a sense of why VS reacted in the same way....


Please ALSO remember that us carrying a story/press release here is NOT the same as v-flyer offering any form of endorsement.

I see that Queen of the Sky has exactly [:w] the same posting on FlyerTalk (under Airline Programs/Virgin Flyer Club). Not getting much support there either.

For any others that might be considering 'straying' for the odd moment from this site pprune.org under the Cabin Crew forum also has a thread on this and another from a few days ago on 'Virgin Complaints'

Originally posted by Nottingham Nick

I am not arguing that the facebook page didn't bring the company into disrepute, I read the reactions of certain posters on the Dibb, and whatever the intention of posting about 'death traps' was, it is impossible to defend those actions, and I wouldn't attempt to do so.

What I was questioning, was the fact that all 13 were given the ultimate sanction of dismissal and, though I can't remember the entire contents of the pages, I don't recall 13 people questioning the safety of the aircraft (though I could be wrong).

I am just surprised that the Unions couldn't prevent the 'minor players' who maybe posted more innocuous comments from being dismissed. Unions are not there to give 'get out of jail free cards', but they should be there to try and ensure that the punishment fits the crime.

There is always a danger on sites like this of posting opinions without being in possession of the full facts, so I will hold my hands up and say that I am just introducing this as a debating point rather than a direct dig at VS for dismissing them all.

Nick

Nick, I can confirm that not all 13 people made comments relating to the safety of the aircraft, yet all 13 had been dismissed.







Edit by mod to change post from capital letters to sentence case... Nick

Originally posted by queenofsky
Hey guys! Remember me? I was fired from Delta because of my blog 4 years ago.

I'm highly disappointed in VS over this matter.

Do they really think this action will GAIN them business? When I was fired from Delta under similar circumstances, I received hundreds of messages from people saying they would NEVER fly Delta again! And most of them were Brits! (And many were V-Flyers!)

I have news for VS management: most flight attendants, except new-hires, think their passengers are 'chavs' (whatever that means). So, unless they want to be constantly training new f/a's, they need to figure out a way to deal with this problem without firing them and without involving the press. A lot of people may agree with their action, but many more disagree.

My advice: REINSTATE BEFORE ITÓS TOO LATE!

This was NOT a smart PR move. This could snowball into book and TV and movie deals about what it's REALLY like to work at VS. I'd tell you to look up the Businessweek.com article from last summer about my case wherein they determine that DL overreacted, but I've got better things to do... like work on my screenplay and TV show pilot. (Thanks for posting my press release, guys!)

Ellen,

I followed the story of when you were suspended and subsequently fired by Delta, and personally believe Delta made a mistake, but considering the situation at the time, you made yourself an easy target for them to reduce headcount. They should have used it to their advantage, highlighting that if you step on a Delta plane you might just find an attractive FA showing a bit of cleavage. They missed a great marketing opportunity in my opinion, and as a result, I stopped flying Delta.

In the Virgin issue, being called a Chav is akin to calling everyone on those planes the equivalent of White Trash, having been on an ex-LGW plane in the last 12 months, i find that offensive that the crew have that attitude, and am glad Virgin took action. The comments a few made surrounding safety etc, whilst may have been valid, should not have been made public in the way it was.

I agree that Virgin acted appropriately and promptly.

Mark

[RichardMannion]

Personally I think someone is using this as a means to get publicity for a certain project - it would certainly tie up with the amount of times it has been posted in various places.

I agree Richard. On my forum I typically move such posts to a private area.

Originally posted by MYLORD
I am the father of one of the 13 sacked.
He DID NOT leave any comments, (Virgin Management has agreed with this) only joined the forum, as did 52+ other people. Why were the other 52+ not dismissed?
He has had above excellent for customers service skills in all test and exams he has taken. On more that four occasions he did not know he was being tested.
This is his career, which he loved and has worked hard for. He has been told that Virgin will not take any of this into account on his reference, it will say why he was dismissed and length of service only.
WHAT EXACTLY DID BOTH HIS GRANDFATHERS FIGHT IN THE 2ND WORLD WAR FOR?
Freedom of speech does not appear to be one of these things, if you work for Virgin.
A MESSAGE TO VIRGIN-ATLANTIC! ITS REMEMBRANCE SUNDAY THIS WEEK. THATS WHAT BOTH HIS GRANDFATHERS AND OTHER BRAVE MEN FOUGHT FOR - FREEDOM - AND FREEDOM OF SPEACH BEING ONE OF THESE THINGS.

Rather than vent your steam here, surely your energy is best placed in supporting you son in an unfair dismissal action.

Mylord - I, and I am sure many others are sad that your son lost his job. This is a matter between him and Virgin, this forum does not represent either.

There has been some debate here as to the potential damage done by some people participating in the Facebook group, all from the perspective of long time or enthusiastic Virgin customers. You'll see different points of view throughout. I am unable to comment on individual cases because I do not know them, but I do see the potential damage the actions of some could have created if allowed to continue and run free. I believe Virgin had little choice but to take strong action.

You, I and almost everyone (probably) agrees to certain codes of conduct when we sign up as employees of businesses. Some people appear to have broken that in this case, nothing to do with free speech.

Originally posted by MYLORD
I am the father of one of the 13 sacked.
He DID NOT leave any comments, (Virgin Management has agreed with this) only joined the forum, as did 52+ other people. Why were the other 52+ not dismissed?
He has had above excellent for customers service skills in all test and exams he has taken. On more that four occasions he did not know he was being tested.
This is his career, which he loved and has worked hard for. He has been told that Virgin will not take any of this into account on his reference, it will say why he was dismissed and length of service only.
WHAT EXACTLY DID BOTH HIS GRANDFATHERS FIGHT IN THE 2ND WORLD WAR FOR?
Freedom of speech does not appear to be one of these things, if you work for Virgin.
A MESSAGE TO VIRGIN-ATLANTIC! ITS REMEMBRANCE SUNDAY THIS WEEK. THATS WHAT BOTH HIS GRANDFATHERS AND OTHER BRAVE MEN FOUGHT FOR - FREEDOM - AND FREEDOM OF SPEACH BEING ONE OF THESE THINGS.

This is also posted on the Virgin Facebook page

[Scrooge]

Originally posted by slinky09
Mylord - I, and I am sure many others are sad that your son lost his job. This is a matter between him and Virgin, this forum does not represent either.

There has been some debate here as to the potential damage done by some people participating in the Facebook group, all from the perspective of long time or enthusiastic Virgin customers. You'll see different points of view throughout. I am unable to comment on individual cases because I do not know them, but I do see the potential damage the actions of some could have created if allowed to continue and run free. I believe Virgin had little choice but to take strong action.

You, I and almost everyone (probably) agrees to certain codes of conduct when we sign up as employees of businesses. Some people appear to have broken that in this case, nothing to do with free speech.

[oo] perfectly said.

In some ways I feel for the crew that were fired, they are young, probably thought it was funny and heck, what harm can it do right....Shame they had to learn a hard lesson, but in today's world you can not mess with a company's image.

[RichardMannion]

So what do you think his punishment should have been then? Bearing in mind that he had associated himself with said 'friends' that clearly had such naivety, and contempt for the hand that feeds. If I were to join a group supporting terrorism, I'd expect a visit rather quickly.

Merely joining a group that is breaking common sense and an employment contract is grounds for disciplinary. Obviously he had his motives for joining, maybe he thought it was funny, or maybe it was herd instinct - regardless it's a costly mistake. He would have learnt through his training about the value of the Virgin brand, and anything that is seen as detriment to that is likely to be met with a severe penalty.

I understand your actions as a parent, but it's not a true failing on Virgin's part in my book. What he will need to think of though, if he is to win his case - would he really want to return given the unusually high level of gossip and idle chatter that flows in the cabin crew world?

I do not agree with the Facebook comments, however its very easy to join something without fully knowing what you are getting yourself into, I know if I joined something in Facebook then found those comments how would you let others know you have made a mistake etc?

I do not know the full facts and im sure VS would have taken legal advice, but if your going to sack some of the people that joined but did not leave a post- should you not sack them all?

MYLORD respectfully I say that my grandparents fought for the right to live in freedom, to be treated with respect and to go about my life without fear of intimidation or discrimination.

The proud veterans of WW11 did not fight or sacrifice their lives in order that our freedom could be used for the purposes of offending others, my grandparents had more class than that.

You say your son did not join in with any defamatory comments so why defend the ones that did over your son.

I hope your son gets the justice he deserves more power to you and him, but the freedom of speech and veterans thing cuts no ice with me.

[Pete]

WHAT EXACTLY DID BOTH HIS GRANDFATHERS FIGHT IN THE 2ND WORLD WAR FOR?

I'm pretty sure they weren't bearing arms in order to give employees immunity from the gross misconduct clause in their contract, and citing freedom of speech is entirely a red herring. If your son did not actively take part in the Facebook discussions, then using freedom of speech is completely irrelevant, is it not? Regardless of whether he posted comments or not, freedom of speech may give you the right to publish your thoughts (providing they are not libellous), but that does not stop the enforcement of your employment contract if it contains clauses relating to public comments about the business or bringing the company into disrepute (as many do).

You ask the question why was he fired when more than 52 people had joined the group? I would suspect Virgin management decided there was some grounds for the action, as employment law being what it is, they would not be so naive as to dismiss someone without reason (and if you really believe that is the case, then take Slipperman's advice and assist your son in an unfair dismissal case). However, it is way beyond the scope of this passenger forum to pick over the reasons why an individual employee was sacked.

The only unsafe plane I've ever been on was after I ate a double curry with lentils. It wasn't safe for anyone for about two hours till I got all that worked out.

Carry on.

GJ

[buns]

Originally posted by MYLORD
Re; Rather than vent your steam here, surely your energy is best placed in supporting you son in an unfair dismissal action.

Thank you Slipperman.

I always have and always will support my son, as you know if your a parent.

The press, Virgin and everyone else has commented on these issues. I thought it fair to put my 21 year old son's side of the story on here. HE DID NOT LEAVE ANY MESSAGES ON FACEBOOK just clicked to join a group of 52 plus friends.

Unfair Dismissal case already underway, with all his families full support

Rather than conducting the case in support of your offspring by resorting to posting the same comments in various internet forums, surely it would be more dignified, and in keeping with the UK's proud history of tolerance and fair play, to assemble any arguments to challenge the decision by VS in a measured, focused and private manner?

buns

[RichardMannion]

Originally posted by MYLORD
Re above; RichardMannion

What punishment did the 52 plus other members get?
13 was dismissed what about the other 39 plus that used this site.
You can not dismiss 13 and leave the 39 plus working. It is unfair.

As you probably guessed I am new to all this. I am off to get back to my life.

You missed my question - I asked what you thought the suitable punishment was for your son. The others 39 or their parents aren't here so we aren't talking about them. A written warning? A demotion?

Originally posted by GrinningJackanapes
The only unsafe plane I've ever been on was after I ate a double curry with lentils. It wasn't safe for anyone for about two hours till I got all that worked out.

Thank you for the levity as ever, mind you, you have remarkably efficient bowels to manage this in just two hours [:0]