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#257462 by sixdownkeepsafedepth
02 Jan 2009, 16:08
Having read through various threads on both this and other forums, it is quite obvious to me that many loyal customers are now deserting Virgin Atlantic in droves and are taking their business elsewhere. Myself planning a holiday of a lifetime to down under has decided that VS simply can not compete on a basis of both cost and customer service with airlines such as Emirates. Has VS finally killed the golden goose?

Regards
Bryan
#463338 by capetownflyer
02 Jan 2009, 16:21
For me it comes down to the fact that VS only fly LHR-CPT in season which is a route I do a few times a year so want to make sure I am utilising miles efficiently. And seeing BA/VS 'react quickly' to be within a few pounds of each other on this route BA just seems to make more sence to me (which I hate.. but there u go.. ) BA seems to be a lot better these days now they have AVOD - wow it makes a flight so much better!
#463339 by northernhenry
02 Jan 2009, 16:22
Have noticed this too in the last 6mths being on VFlyer, and given recent excellent posts by Mr Mannion et al, the pull of BA is sounding more & more enticing. Ok products will always get beaten as new upgraded seats get fitted, but there no excuse for lacklustre service in any industry. Will be interesting to see if VS go for any updates in cabins with the new Dreamliners? or more importantly & urgent a firm kick to bring back the sparkle that enticed us in the first place..

NH

I for one await in anticipation 2009 travels and a more cynical eye on the overall experience, as by the end of the year the grass may well be greener...
#463340 by Nottingham Nick
02 Jan 2009, 16:24
I am not sure they are deserting in droves, but I think this subject was covered recently in this thread,.

Lots of us gave our opinions in there, and maybe it is a bit too soon for another thread on the same subject?

I will leave this one open for others who may disagree. [;)][8D]

Nick
#463342 by sixdownkeepsafedepth
02 Jan 2009, 16:35
I think that gist of that thread might differ slightly from the question I have posed Nick. Too soon for a similar discussion? Really?

[:0]

Regards
Bryan
#463343 by Scrooge
02 Jan 2009, 16:38
It's funny that you posted this, I was thinking the same thing, in fact I have a little theory that may not sit well with some people, deep breath time.

There are a couple of reasons going through my head, the first one being that VS has gotten too big. It has become what BA was in the 80's, it has become complacent with its place in the UK (and world) aviation market, it is living off of the image it cultivated during the early 90's as being at the head of the pack. It has failed to listen to its passengers and their insights and lastly, it has cut too many 'perks' in the premium cabins.

With size comes costs, now if done correctly growing as an airline can be a good thing, there is a certain amount of cost that is fixed no matter what, office staff etc. The use of an effective website can mitigate a lot of those costs, really in this day and age there is no reason why a person should have to call VS in order to purchase a fare to do an upgrade, it is something small, but imagine the number of calls made each day and the costs add up, a simple drop down menu on the website should be in place to take care of this. Also in place should be an option to purchase a Y or W then upgrade to the W or J cabin.

With airlines such as BA upgrading their services VS's response has been to cut, when you are charging the same as others and your product is inferior you're in trouble, let's look at AA for a second, they have a massive FF base, their J cabin was sub par, they were losing pax to other airlines, so what did they do, they improved their cabin, the moved to a flat bed seat and improved the food, the FF's were happy, AA got their pax back. Its product is still inferior to VS's, but an AA FF is not even going to look at VS now.

The VS LHR clubhouse : VS spent a small fortune on this and I am sure that the rent they pay BAA each month to rent the space does not come cheaply, now certainly it is one of the best airline lounges in the world, it is a fantastic place to spend a hour or eight before your flight, but realistically it is too much, was there anything wrong with the CH before its expansion ? I really don't think so, it was more than adequate for VS's need, however VS felt the need for a show piece and decided that the LHR clubhouse would be it.

This of course has come at a cost, now my argument has always been would you rather VS spend the money to make your stay more pleasant for the couple of hours on the ground, or the 7 - 11 hours you are in the air ? I know where my priorities are.

Now whilst airlines have made huge gains in the catering department it seems to me that VS has decided to lower its menu standards, not just in the number of choices but also in what is actually offered, now I will say that they have taken steps to correct this with the latest menu, it is a huge improvement over what has been offered before, however as LRoM pointed out, BA and a number of other airlines now feature a 'raid the larder' type thing, making life easy for the pax and the crew, I do seem to remember that VS had something like this before, or maybe old age creeping in [?]

Next would be aircraft choice,the 744 and 346 are both great aircraft, however for VS's routes and size they are too much, VS made a mistake when they ordered the 346's, they should of gone for the 77W's, same lift, greater cargo and lower costs.

Lastly and one they will probably wrinkle a few noses, the UCS.

Yes it is a good product, however again the cost of developing it (shared cost may be a better term) and implementing it may have been to much for an airline the size of VS. Also its design limits the number of seats that can be placed on the aircraft, in a similar area BA manages to fit in 70 CW seats, meaning (as long as you can fill them) more revenue per flight, meaning more money can be spent on each pax while still keeping the flight profitable.

Just some of my thoughts.
#463344 by RichardMannion
02 Jan 2009, 17:09
It sure is an interesting topic, and one that Sarah and I discussed quite a bit over the past few weeks while we have been away and using BA.

BA pulled a masterstroke by having that 50% off sale for redemptions in my book and it has cost VS and maybe other carriers dearly. We were waiting for a UC sale that has failed to materialise, and if it hadn't gone live by late Nov we were going to book a trip to somewhere like ORD in PE with VS. As it happens, that sale came around and we jumped on it (even moving miles in the process from a holding account) - and it really has opened both our eyes to how good BA can be. So it cost VS revenue and possible future business.

I'm not saying I'm leaving VS lock stock, but it's no longer a one horse race in our house. For the past 10 years, I have always booked with VS to go to Seattle for work, and therefore adding time on to my journey. The day before we flew to SIN I booked another trip for February and I'm now wondering if I should have just booked direct with BA instead in Club World.

I'm VS Gold, and other than the bonus miles I don't really see much benefit when flying in Upper Class. If I was the equivalent on BA, I stand the possibility of an upgrade to First, but more importantly I get access to the OneWorld alliance; so when I'm doing a short haul flight where I typically fly in Economy, I will get access to the lounge network (and more likely the new T5 Galleries complex). I do have a back-up Priority Pass for lounge access, but there typically is a difference between a PP lounge and a good OW lounge such as Galleries. Now we all know that BA EC is a lot less inclusive than VS FC, but I'm the kind of customer that EC aims for in reality.

In the next few months, I know the VS Gold member base is going to grow by a sizeable chunk due to it being made available to UK AmEx Centurion cardholders, of which there are around 15-17k. That obviously is bringing a large cash injection from AmEx, and it will be interesting to see the net result. Maybe the long rumoured/surveyed tier above is going to materialise.

Again, I'm not deserting VS but we were both very impressed by the NGCW product. There is that c-word of consistency again, and the other c-word of crew. Over at BA, you really do have to prove your worth before you get to work longhaul or in one of the premium cabins (and we are talking years), hence why there wasn't a single member of crew under the age of 30 on our flight; that brought a level of maturity and professionalism that was expected for a premium product. Have I had better, more fun flights with Virgin? Yes, but then I have had some shockers too and these were all crew related.

I think that is one area that really does need to be addressed and it will take time. Don't get me wrong, there are some really great staff that do deliver a stellar service, but there are also a number that really should not be working in a premium cabin. How do VS fix this? They need to really look at how flights and crew are assessed. Instead of cocking about with those silly x-plane forms on the air that can be easily intercepted, use another method to really score the flight. Maybe a survey on IFE, or send a post flight survey with an incentive attached to it.

Sure I'm likely to have pissed off some crew with that, and the comments of pay and how BA are paid more etc. It's a job at the end of the day, and in this current climate there are a growing number of people that would jump at the chance; that's before we even get to the fact that there has always been a long queue of people wanting to do the job. VS needs to manage the poor performers out, and replace it with talent that does want to work hard and do a good job. I'd love to see the full interview process and criteria they use, as I look over on cabincrew.com and absolutely cringe when I see some of the messages and attitudes displayed by existing staff and people that have been accepted. Maybe time for the 1 year or 2 contract to be put in place, so you are on probation for a full year before you get the shot of becoming a full time proper member of crew.

VS is said to be in the full service airline category (not a LCC), so needs to start really behaving like one. Dave is bang on with the complacency comment, and it takes a logn time to fix that.
#463346 by Neil
02 Jan 2009, 17:16
I am not so sure VS are losing loyal customers in their droves either. It is rather a bold statement to make on the back of reading this and a few other frequent flier forums that con only represent a tiny % of VS and other carriers customers. VS are introducing extra flights for this year and seem to be in a fairly decent position at the moment.

Also, whilst I am sure some customers are choosing to fly else where, customers of other airlines are now choosing to fly VS instead I imagine, the old 'grass is greener' saying springs to mind. Also, how many of us can say we are now truly loyal to one brand? If there was a potential huge saving by flying someone else (BA for example) would still choose VS. But this is the same now in everything surely? Would you only fill you home with say Sony electronics? With the world in such a mess, brand loyalties are no doubt been shown the door in many business and household so that they can purely survive.

Neil
#463347 by Decker
02 Jan 2009, 17:18
The pedant in me wishes to point out that loyal customers are not leaving in droves. By leaving they show themselves to be disloyal. So why are formerly loyal customers... [;)]
#463348 by buns
02 Jan 2009, 17:20
Well said Richard[y]

In this tough economic climate, it is not unreasonable for VS to shelve further innovative features (which in my mind is part of the uniqueness of flying with VS). However, it is equally reasonable to maintain the keeping the basics right.

What has been said countless times here is that the effectiveness of the FSM determines whether pax have a good flight.

Perhaps Mr R should devote some time to enthusing his FSMs to become the ambassadors of excellent service and lead by example

buns
#463352 by sixdownkeepsafedepth
02 Jan 2009, 17:58
quote:Originally posted by Neil
I am not so sure VS are losing loyal customers in their droves either. It is rather a bold statement to make on the back of reading this and a few other frequent flier forums that con only represent a tiny % of VS and other carriers customers. VS are introducing extra flights for this year and seem to be in a fairly decent position at the moment.

Also, whilst I am sure some customers are choosing to fly else where, customers of other airlines are now choosing to fly VS instead I imagine, the old 'grass is greener' saying springs to mind. Also, how many of us can say we are now truly loyal to one brand? If there was a potential huge saving by flying someone else (BA for example) would still choose VS. But this is the same now in everything surely? Would you only fill you home with say Sony electronics? With the world in such a mess, brand loyalties are no doubt been shown the door in many business and household so that they can purely survive.

Neil


Neil yes I suppose I have posted a rather bold statement that I can not back up with actual statistics. I have no doubt that VS are introducing extra flights for this year and seem to be in a fairly decent position at the moment.

Personally my previous loyalty to the VS brand has extended to choosing flights with them even although similar have been substantially cheaper elsewhere. Over the last 8 years I have also taken every long haul holiday with VH. Have I been a loyal customer? Yes I think so. Over the years has cost cutting made a significant difference to the service provided? With out a doubt. Am I still willing to pay a premium price for a laclustre service? I am afraid not and it seems that a number of V-flyer members agree with me. IMHO VS has 'killed the goose that laid the golden egg'!

Regards
Bryan
#463353 by RichardMannion
02 Jan 2009, 18:15
Buns' is right - it's about getting the basics right and I feel that these aren't being done. Pointless having fancy icing if you have a half-baked cake to put them on.

I do absolutely get Bryan's view though - in the past if VS had been say £100 more than BA, I'd have gone on VS still. Now, I don't think so.

Product is product, service is service. If you spend £2k on a ticket and say a part of the product is broken (IFE for instance), yes you'd be pissed off a bit but it's an inanimate object. If you have a problem with service, because a member of staff is disinterested or doesn't understand service, then that's a whole different issue and one that can easily chip away at any loyalty.
#463354 by Nottingham Nick
02 Jan 2009, 18:17
I don't think a few adverse comments on the internet equates to leaving in droves, or the death of a golden egg, but I do agree that VS have got it wrong on several fronts.

Too many cutbacks, both on-board affecting customers and, more importantly IMHO, in the background - affecting crew and ground staff morale.

At the risk of repeating myself from previous threads. The Virgin Staff are what used to give it the X-Factor. If the staff are left feeling under valued, this will inevitably knock on to the way they treat passengers. This leads to once loyal passengers seeking alternative carriers, and the spiral continues.

Personally, I am staying with VS for this year at least. I will re-qualify for the gold card and then reconsider my options.

I have started paying more attention to other carriers TRs here, and on FT - something I never used to do much. I still don't think the grass is THAT much greener on the other side, but VS need to get themselves sorted, and start to listen to their staff and customers.

Hopefully this will cause them to stop the false economies, and make them concentrate on ensuring the airline survives beyond next year.

Nick
#463355 by RichardMannion
02 Jan 2009, 18:29
Nick, do you think the morale (under-valued) issues are possibly misplaced though? The old adage, of not knowing what you had until its gone.

I remember during the huge pay deal thread last year, that the pay increases that were on offer were still in excess of many other members that were getting no or 1-2.5% pay increase. Remember the comment from one of 'but they have money to pay for new clubhouses' and again when the profits were annouced.

I think no one is going to say they don't want to earn more money, but there needs to be a realisation that there is more to a role/life than just the salary that goes with it. There is a need to be sensible otherwise it results in a 100% pay cut and I think that some forget that. VS needs to get to a model of 'Pay for Performance' instead of its across the board model they have. If you want to earn more, you have to take on new challenges, more responsibility and deliver great service/results.
#463356 by Nottingham Nick
02 Jan 2009, 18:46
No I don't think that the morale issue is misplaced at all.

In any service industry that has a workforce that feels undervalued, this will reflect in the level of service they give to the paying customer.

Crew / ground staff who work for VS knew that they wouldn't be the highest paid workers when they took the job. The low wages were compensated by 'perks'. Long serving staff have seen these eroded to such an extent that a lot are wondering if the job is worthwhile any more.

UC pax are quick to bleat about the removal of their perks, but it cuts both ways. I am not saying that any of the cutbacks are right. My point is that too many of the cutbacks made are false economies, that are in danger of driving customers away.

I would love to know how much the recent TV advertising campaign for the UC drive through check in / UC suites cost. I am sure that money could have been better spent on better food, deep cleaning the planes and reversing some of the cutbacks that have been hurting the crew.



Nick
#463357 by Alex V
02 Jan 2009, 18:49
This will be my last year flying VS unless they improve greatly problem is this,

I am going to MCO later in the year however i know that;
1.clubhouse is a poor relation of lhr
2.gatwick fleet not as nice
3.cdc experience non existant
4.no revivals in lgw

And because of this Virgin in my mind only exist out of lhr as i wouldnt waste my money flying on a second rate fleet out of lgw. Now this isnt exactly a small destination (MCO) and so if i want the Virgin experience i have t fly to Miami which is not where i want to be.

Secondly the Companion vouchers are pathetic and a complete stitch up if you take out the card thinking that you might get a 241 flight some time soon.[n]As funnily enough fully flexible fares will always nearly work out way more expensive[i]

Food has been poor on all flights i took this year.

And FAs across all my flights have been surly or unprofessional.

I started using VS for long haul 2 years back as my cirumstances changed enabling me to travel more often and so picked VS, as my chldhood memories of Virgin were way cooler[8D] than travelling with BA but this is not what i have found!

When flying BA i really do like having older FA as they are much more proffesional and C C C Consistent, food is better IMHO and that their companion vouchers are actually a valuable perk for having their card.

So im gonna upgrade my BA amex to black im afraid[:w]

Scrooge and LRoM raised great points and we all want Virgin to improve.

cheers

alex[:)]
#463358 by Darren Wheeler
02 Jan 2009, 18:52
On the flip side, how many have deserted BA for VS after appalling flights?
#463359 by nevadakaz
02 Jan 2009, 18:57
Some excellent points have been made in this thread.

On opening the thread I was going to post that IMO VS are losing previously loyal customers because they ahve become too complacent.

Scrooge and Richard posted along these lines in far greater detail.

Then we have the staff morale and onboard cutbacks. Before I ever flew UC, I remember a promo that gave John Lewis vouchers. I always thought it was a nice incentive. Of course the people receiving them, knew they were paying for them, but I am sure it was appreciated nonetheless.
Now I dont know what the amenity kit was like at the time, but it later became the Oswald Boetang (sp?) travel wallet and cufflinks. I collected a few of these over many trips and was amazed at how many friends and family would ask for the travel wallet.
Now we have the shoe bags and..well...uhm...we have shoe bags. Hardly soemthing to look forward to.
Now I might be wrong, but I think on BMI you get a leather wash bag in J, which looks to be stocked with many useful items.

Then we have the service, I shant go into too much detail, but all of us here on V-flyer know how patchy the service can be.
Sadly it has gotten to the point for me, where when I recieve good service, rather than be pleased, I think back to the previous flight with lousy service and shake my head.

If the passengers at the front are not being looked after, they will find an airline that will look after them and perhaps never come back. Especially when your nearest competitor often has prices within £1 of your own.

In terms of the overall J experience, I think the only area VS excell in, are the Clubhouses. And then I only ever use LGW/LHR airports with Clubhouses. In LAX or LAS I am in a shared lounge.

Which again points to inconsistencies. Incosistent onboard service and inconsistent quality of lounge/clubhouse.

Moving one step down the back of the plane, we have another inconsitency. The PE seat.
Sure here on v-flyer we know approximately what to expect depending on what airport we depart from. However my grandads last flight (in Upper on an LGW plane) he was walking past the PE seats and when we were seated he said 'they are nothing like the adverts in the Mail on Sunday'. He is a somewhat frequent Virgin flyer and like many, I am sure he assumed the purple leather seats were fleet wide.

Rolling out across the fleet, something I dont think is in current literature, but those people who saw the ad 12,18,24 months ago, might go ahead and book with false expectations. Can you imagine the disappointment somebody has when they board a plane and see the old PE ?
I know quite some time back, I was disappointed to be given PE on the lower deck. This was before I knew of v-flyer. I had always travelled PE on the upper deck and had no idea that PE had a lower deck. Perhaps I was wrong to be so disappointed, maybe my naivity was to blame, but I was truly shocked not to be in the upper deck. I wonder how many have the same shock or disappointment to be in the cloth PE.

Then we have the nickel and diming of passengers, which is something I find particually distasteful.

Why should a VS customer have to pay the Amex service charge when using the VS Amex, when BMI and BA both manage to waive this fee?

Where is the discount/incentive for booking online ? Anybody remember the £5 online discount ?

Why do VS reward flights have so many taxes and fees associated with them ?

Finally, before I ramble too much. I think VS shot itself in the foot when it tied itself up with MBNA-Amex. Previously many BA flyers had the BA Amex and the VS flyers had the mastercard, when Virign 'forced' us over to the MBNA-Amex people could easily see what a poor deal the VS version was in comparisson to its BA cousin. Couple that in with poor value reward seats, impossible to use (get value from) MBNA-Amex perks and suddenly it was easier to earn miles with BA and use them on fair value rewards/upgrades.
#463361 by ChuckC
02 Jan 2009, 19:06
An excellent thread and a supreme opportunity for VS to distill so much of what passengers have commented about in the last year. This thread also points out that V-Flyer is truly independent of VS, that we strive to discuss and report objectively concerning the VS flying experience.

I have an upcoming return flight LAX-LHR in Upper during January. Depending upon the service I will decide whether to test out BA service on my next visit to the UK. In the meanwhile have signed up for the BA's Executive Club and am receiving its newsletter.

Chuck-
#463363 by Scrooge
02 Jan 2009, 19:13
As you point out, crew morale is something to be looked at, off the top of my head when I have been asked about which airlines have provided me with the best crew experience there are two airlines that jump to mind, Southwest and Maxjet.

Southwest FA's are well paid, have good benefits and know that their jobs are safe, when Maxjet was flying their training was very service orientated, they had an inferior product to VS/BA/AA/UA but they more than made up for it on service, in reading the forums the closest airline I can find to the Maxjet experience would be SQ, now that is not something to sneeze at. I took 4 flights with Maxjet and if they were still around I would pick them in a heart beat.

So what can be done, well all the training in the world isn't going to do a thing unless there is some form of monitoring it, the idea of the report forms is flawed, the only way to get an accurate reading on how a crew is performing is to have secret shoppers, they must be trained in what to expect and how to report.

Now there should also be a way to reward crews that perform well, it is important to reward as well as punish.

The clubhouse is going nowhere, the same with the UCS, if the airline has a budget to stick to so be it, area can be found to cutback where the money saved can be plowed back into the parts the pax see.

One area to think about and is sometimes raised on here, the Y cabin, along with quite a few others have moved from the Y cabin to the W and J cabins, however probably 2 out of every 3 of my flights have at least started in the Y cabin, now while the Y cabin is not a money maker for the airline it can in the long run be one.

With charter airlines providing more seat pitch something really should be done, removing a couple of rows would lower earnings, but provide a better in flight experience, however these types of things will not happen until the Y cabin starts emptying out, which will probably never happen. A better way of dealing with this is to look at installing the new ultra slim line seats, though the same number of seats are fitted you do end up with a great amount of legroom.

Neil raises a good point, while some FF's are looking elsewhere we must remember that other airlines FF's are looking at VS, we all remember when DL's FF's could book reward tickets and how they flocked to VS. Of course other airlines have now improved their cabins so who knows if that would happen now.
#463366 by Scrooge
02 Jan 2009, 19:29
quote:Originally posted by Darren Wheeler
Time for a wise and brave soul to visit to Crawley?


Nope, it's time for a wise and brave soul from Crawley to visit us, we give our money to them, not the other way around.

A number of people have raised the points about the 241 vouchers etc.

Marketing is a great thing, but to those in the know it just seems VS keeps shooting themselves in the foot, I have a BA credit card, I won't get a VS one because, well I earn miles with my Amex card already and well, with my spend level I could get a voucher, then get annoyed because I could never use it, so why bother [:p]

Also there is the thing with being able to upgrade from any wt+ fare rather than the more expensive ones that VS makes you buy, that has cost VS money from my household in the past where G's were not available but we could buy a ticket and pray they would do so, or buy a WT+ ticket for 1/2 the price and pray they would open up on BA...now lets think for a second about that one, thanks but no thanks.

Now just in the name of disclosure, I have very little loyalty to any airline, I will whore myself out to which ever one offers me the best value for my money, but if it comes down to VS or another airline on the route of my choice and the prices are about the same then I will take VS.
#463372 by RichardMannion
02 Jan 2009, 20:12
BA were smart when they did their deal with AmEx directly, there was a clause in there about them not working with any other airlines. Hence why VS went to MBNA in the first place, the Mastercard was good but by moving to the AmEx auth platform a better return (money) was to be had so VS earn more and they have more to make availalbe in the form of rates of earning, the lower companion threshold and the upgrade vouchers. To be honest I think many now see that the upgrade vouchers and the companion vouchers are of real limited use when you try execute on them, and as a result would rather go back to the old Mastercard platform. MBNA aren't my favourite company in the world, as they epitomise the money grabbing financial institute and I hate their pushy 'extras' sell - MCuth demonstrated rather well in a recent post on some of their tactics.

Now a recent change that isn't going to help VS in our household is the recent addition of BA as an AmEx Membership Rewards partner. So now, I can shift my MR points to my BA account at a rate of 1:1 so the same as VS. This is in addition to any spend I may do on my black BA AmEx (though to be honest, I earn more points via spend on my Centurion). Oh the irony of the MR points I have earned in the past for spend with VS that I can now move to BA.

On a slight tangent, I do prefer VS PE over BA WT+. So if I were to do an East Coast flight where I am happy to do PE, then I would probably more likely go for VS.

Basically I see the word loyalty being diluted in our household - I no longer need to fly regularly with VS to maintain my AU status as I will get it regardless via AmEx. My annual fee is rocketing as a result (as AX are paying VS quite a fee for the perk), but then in the long run it is likely to cost VS business as I'm not spending £5k+ a year of my money retaining Au.

Nick - hear what you are saying, but while ever there is a long line of people still applying to do the job.... like you say though, its a false economy as the tenure would dwindle.
#463376 by Nottingham Nick
02 Jan 2009, 20:25
quote:Originally posted by RichardMannion
Nick - hear what you are saying, but while ever there is a long line of people still applying to do the job....

I know you aren't disagreeing with me Richard. However, there are an awful lot of people that want to be footballers in the Premiership, but I think football fans would sooner that clubs stick with the established stars - i.e. the ones who have talent. [;)] [:D]

Nick
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