Thoughts about Premium Economy

Surely the answer's in the name - its called PREMIUM economy - an enhanced version of the economy seat - i.e. more room, separate check in, separate cabin - its NOT a "mid class" product like BA's Club World.

However, UCS is better than the club world products but maybe not quite as good as "first class" - although I have not flown First class so maybe thats not quite the case.

And as previous comments have said - PE is always pretty full on the B and S routes - mind you, with the fares VH are showing for UCS to Orlando next year I dont think they will have any problem filling them!!

Probably the main reason i choose to fly in PE is the extra room (although could do with a little bit more) and the seats upstairs, away from the noise of the downstairs cabin.

When i first flew in PE it felt like a luxury siting upstairs but after numerous flights it`s just like sitting anywhere else

In order to bring a little sparkle back into the PE experience how about offering the portable DVD players if no one in UC is using them?

How about a glass of champagne with Dinner as well as pre departure?

PE food on plates?

Just returned from a trip using BA WT+ LHR-BOS-LHR and I have to say the BA seat is better marginally than the old PE seat and miles better than the new PE seat.There is more leg room and the seat in front when reclined does not invade your space so much.Food and service are almost identical barring no glass of fizz on BA.Prices on restricted tickets were very similar.BA now has dedicated WT+ check-in desks(although they did look very busy).I Think like Jonathan said I will only book PE if I am looking for a freebie opup.Must say the last few flights I have taken on PE lots of opups and staff in the seats and on the Xmas flights PE downstairs was empty both ways.

Originally posted by jaguarpig
ust say the last few flights I have taken on PE lots of opups and staff in the seats and on the Xmas flights PE downstairs was empty both ways.

It's a good point - everyone here is keen on saying that PE is always full - but is this hard knowledge or assumption. There have been spare PE seats on at least 3 of the last 4 flight I have taken.

Phil (Buffy)

[HighFlyer]

PE food on plates?

Oh LOL I had to laugh at that one - imagining the 'Veg Curry' meal or 'Beef Pie in the Sky' or whatever scooped out of the tray and on to a plate! (sorry, just my sense of humour)

Plates in PE would be fab wouldnt it? - but unlikely!! [:(]


On my last two flights (MCO and LAS) i flew at very busy times (LAS on Xmas eve and MCO on the first day of the half term) both times the plane was full - overbooked even - but as i expected for peak travel. At other times i have always had a full PE cabin (im a regular PE flyer) bu i dont know how many of those seats were occupied by op-ups or friends of the crew, i have seen this on several occasions so it does happen. Perhaps when we think that the cabin is full it isnt full of fully paid pax?

Im generally happy flying PE, especially outbound, my only gripe is that when i am paying over £1000 for a PE ticket i do expect to get something a little better than the Economy passengers for the extra cash. That is a lot of money and not always worth what i get ... but what do i do ... pay it anyway ...

[:I]

Totally agree with HighFlyer, PE is fine outbound but when paying in excess of £1000 for the ticket i would hope for a little bit more than an economy meal and a glass of own brand champagne.

Have to say though that every Virgin flight so far has been in PE, next one is in UC (woohoo), so they must be doing something right for me to keep going back. Coudln`t bear the thoght of 8 hours with 30" seat pitch in Economy

Didn`t really mean that they would put the Veg curry (ugh) onto a plate but rather that PE passengers get a slightly higher spec` meal brought to them instead of being served from the trolley in the aisle

You can but dream!

Originally posted by original bob
Totally agree with HighFlyer, PE is fine outbound but when paying in excess of £1000 for the ticket i would hope for a little bit more than an economy meal and a glass of own brand champagne.

I have to agree. I think that economy meals in general (not just on VS) have gone down in quality in the years that have passed since the original introduction of PE on VS - ready-made off-the-shelf desserts (e.g. yogurts, sickly gooey slop things, etc., instead of a real dessert), microscopic salads, and "tv dinner" main meals (slop in a plastic tray). Just more "brand name" convenience food, if you get my drift.

I also find the comedy "water/juice cuplet" offensive in the least. A bottle of water which you can sip on and re-close during the flight seems to make more sense to me.

Didn`t really mean that they would put the Veg curry (ugh) onto a plate but rather that PE passengers get a slightly higher spec` meal brought to them instead of being served from the trolley in the aisle

Drew on my experience of travelling with other airlines, to think what an enhanced PE meal service would look like - it's somewhere between economy and a European business class meal:

* A drinks run.
* Tray containing place setting (cup, glass, silverware, etc) with appetiser and desert are served to the PE passengers from a cart. Warmed bread offered.
* As this is served, the pax is asked what choice of main meal they would like. A sticky coloured dot is placed on the top of the seatback - which indicates what the pax choice is.
* While this is happening, the meals are already being heated in the galley. (They are heated en-masse, rather than to order.) The meals are in quality reuseable oven-to-tableware dishes, with throwaway foil lids.
* A run is made to collect the appetiser plates, and more bread offered.
* This is immediately followed by a run to serve the main course. The FA will remove the lid from the dish before giving it to the pax. This could be done from a cart, and drink top-ups are offered. As the pax recieves their chosen meal, the sticker is removed from their seatback.
* Drink top-ups are offered as needed during the meal.
* Finally coffee and tea are offered, and a run with the cart to pick up the used trays.

I pinched the idea of the sticker, and the style of oven-to-tableware for the main dish, from LH's European Business Class hot meal service, which I thought was pretty good.

I'd guess, on the Upper deck of the 744, this service could be done with 2 flight attendants.

Note that there's only a choice of the main meal itself, so it's not that much different in terms of what's required. Just the presentation and food is of a higher quality.

I think you can get away with serving from the meal cart, without detracting from the level of service, if you do it right.

Amenity kits - well, I don't really care, as long as they have eyeshades that don't let the light through, ear plugs, tissues, toothbrush and toothpaste, and a bit of moisturiser. I particularly like the Polos in VS' Upper kits though.

Cheers,
Mike

[preiffer]

The only problem with this way of working Mike (in terms of meal service), is that it seems quite crew intensive. The example of the upper deck could actually cause a problem, as these crew members are also having to give attention to the UCS passengers...

(Re: Polos in the OB/J kits, do the economy kits not come with a small pack of 'smints' any more?)

Originally posted by preiffer
The only problem with this way of working Mike (in terms of meal service), is that it seems quite crew intensive. The example of the upper deck could actually cause a problem, as these crew members are also having to give attention to the UCS passengers...

VS cabin crew, correct me if I'm wrong, but the W and J Upper Deck crew on the LHR 744 are theoretically seperate?

Last time I travelled upper deck on the 744, there were two crew for J and two crew for W (at least during the meal service).

(Re: Polos in the OB/J kits, do the economy kits not come with a small pack of 'smints' any more?)

Polos both ways in March.

Cheers,
Mike

[preiffer]

Originally posted by mike-smashing
[brVS cabin crew, correct me if I'm wrong, but the W and J Upper Deck crew on the LHR 744 are theoretically seperate?

Last time I travelled upper deck on the 744, there were two crew for J and two crew for W (at least during the meal service).

Agreed, theoretically (although can't be entirely sure of actual crew levels for PE). But in reality, on my last 3/4 flights in the upstairs UC section, I've had contact with three different crew members, so one or both of the PE crew are certainly there helping out in UC...

This is certainly a hot topic and one which comes up on a regular basis on v-flyer.

To add to points I've made in previous posts on the same topic.....

There are printed service flows for all cabins which the crew follow. These dictate the order the services run in, where they start and who delivers them.

Although it would be nice to offer a service by hand rather than cart, the layout of certain aircraft in the fleet would make this impractical. When I have travelled BA Club World, I've noticed they offer almost all of their services from a cart - and this is Business Class not an enhanced Economy class.

At the moment, W Class passengers normally receive their first choice of meal. If the menu offered in Premium Economy was different from the main cabin there is a good chance that not all passengers would get their first or even second choice.

To clarify who works on the Upper Deck:-

LHR B744 - 2 Senior Cabin Crew looking after Upper Class and 1 Cabin Crew member looking after Premium Economy.

LGW B744 - 2 Cabin Crew looking after Premium Economy

Originally posted by Jetstreamer


Although it would be nice to offer a service by hand rather than cart, the layout of certain aircraft in the fleet would make this impractical. When I have travelled BA Club World, I've noticed they offer almost all of their services from a cart - and this is Business Class not an enhanced Economy class.

Hi jetstreamer,

You make a good point, When you say this about BA, are you talking about the lower or upper deck? But BA do have a total of 70 club world seats on a 747 compared to VS who have about half that in PE. I understand that it is impratical, but perhaps it could be a little extra just for people sitting in the 'B' section.

Originally posted by Jetstreamer
This is certainly a hot topic and one which comes up on a regular basis on v-flyer.

Because people do feel that PE is good now, but is no longer the best! It's largely stood still since it's introduction. We'd all like to see VS being the best, and setting the standards!

There are printed service flows for all cabins which the crew follow. These dictate the order the services run in, where they start and who delivers them.

Yes, I accept these exist in this form today, and I don't think anyone is suggesting that the VS staff on the forum deviate from the company's policies and risk getting into grief. What I think we are kicking around is ideas of what these service flows could look like in the future, should VS choose to carry out an overhaul of the product.

At the moment, W Class passengers normally receive their first choice of meal. If the menu offered in Premium Economy was different from the main cabin there is a good chance that not all passengers would get their first or even second choice.

This is a very good point. Not exactly sure how you would achieve this without a lot of wastage. Possibly make the hot part of crew meals and revamped W meals the same? (I know this used to be the case when the crew would be fed by loading additional J meals, I believe that crew meals are seperate again these days?)

To clarify who works on the Upper Deck:-

LHR B744 - 2 Senior Cabin Crew looking after Upper Class and 1 Cabin Crew member looking after Premium Economy.

Thanks for the clarification. I'd assume that when there were two people serving in W on an LHR flight, that was some sort of training/mentoring occurring, or maybe a light load downstairs?

Cheers,
Mike

Oops sorry for asking about food on plates, seems to have opened this up into a bit of a debate. [:I]

But while we are on the subject, Emirates Business Class food is served from a trolley but comes on china dishes that are put together from your choice of meal and presented to you on a tray at your seat.

How about a similar version for PE PAX? Not askng for the same food as UC but as you eat with your eyes as well as your stomach and the presentation is just as important.

Just a thought.

thanks

[Pete]

Even though Virgin effectively defined the Premium Economy product, how about they take a fresh look at the whole thing? Far too many of their competitors now offer a similar service, so perhaps they could drop the name and define a new category focusing on those (growing) numbers of businesses that can no longer stump up for a J fare?

The unpopular part of this sort of proposal would be an adjustment of fares (upward). Since if they're not having problems filling the seats as they stand, then the only business case for change is an increase in revenue.

Pete

Originally posted by pixuk
Far too many of their competitors now offer a similar service,

Apart from BA with WT+ which other airlines offer an enhanced Y service? Just curious.

I would love to see small improvements (who wouldn't) and I still would love to see some figures of loads of revenue pax in PE - because I'm not convinced it is as full as suggested.

Phil (Buffy)

[preiffer]

Originally posted by BuffyTVS65
[brApart from BA with WT+ which other airlines offer an enhanced Y service? Just curious.

If you're talking about purely greater legroom, then both UA and BD offer this. BD would claim their service is a premium economy, but it's basically just more legroom.

Air Canada have just introduced "Club Class" - Business Class seat, economy service, on some International routes.

I don't think any others claim to offer any "frills" over just a bigger seat though, unless you count First Choice ...

[Pete]

Carriers with a Premium Economy service;

Air Canada
Air France
ANA
Aloha
bmi
British Airways
Eva Air
Guardia
Midwest Express
Monarch
SAS
Singapore (although, admittedly, it's the only Economy product they offer on the SIN-LAX route)
Thomas Cook
United Airlines
Virgin Atlantic
Zoom

[preiffer]

Pete,

Which of these are actually Enhanced Economy, and which ones are simply more legroom?

The debate on this is probably endless. I have flown PE a couple of times and being v.tall it really made the flight that much more comfortable, for me anyway. As Highflyer and others have mentioned though, the cost for the "extras" I don't think is justified, but hell I paid it anyway.

I don't know how airlines work out revenue per passenger but I was just wondering if the actual 'physical cabin/floor space' each passenger gets has a real factor for the higher cost of PE to E. Is it really pro-rata. IE if you could break down the 'space' each passenger gets in E vs PE, is the increase cost justified.
Of course the number of seats is less in PE due to the extra legroom and width of seats, and the airline have to make up for it somehow. So I am presuming the increase cost for PE covers the loss of revenue vs if the entire PE cabin is E. If you get what I mean.

Maybe this isn't a way of doing it seeing as there are many fare codes, but there must be a break point somewhere.

Just a thought....
Jon

[preiffer]

I distinctly remember it being mentioned that PE is the most profitable cabin (by area) on the aircraft.

It makes more per sq.ft than the equivalent economy seating plan would in the same space, assuming an "average" ticket price for both cabins, with not much more outlay for the airline (ie: regular economy service).

I did a break down some while ago and reckon that in terms of 'floor space' the figures are:

Y = 1
PE = 1.4
UCS = 3.5

So 2 PE seats is a little less than 3 Y seats - but with such small cabins it does depend on how big the cabin is. It is unlikely you could use a 744 upstairs for Y (5 across?). Likewise the 2 rows of PE downstairs (14 seats) would be a tight fit for 3 rows (24 seats) of Y. However based on the 340 - 4 rows of PE (28 seats) maps nicely to 5 rows of Y (40 seats).

Anyway you look at it PE is pretty good financially for VS.

Phil (Buffy)

BuffyTVS65 - that is great.

I understand why PE must be good profit value for VS.
On a recent flight from IAD-LHR on an A343 though, the PE cabin did seem a little tired. I know VS are looking at phasing these aircraft out, but even so - and we go full circle back to the original thread - it just seemed a bit stale.
Maybe if PE remains to be popular and the service just about cuts it with PAX, then I doubt VS will be too hasty to revamp it.
I just wish the cost was pro-rata to the actual service you get.
Jon

[fozzyo]

Hmmm, interesting debate. Yes I think everyone would love it if VS jazzed up PE a bit more, nicer meals etc - particularly if they don't change the price. But as Pix has pointed out there doesn't seem to be a business justification for it.

Saying that though, I think maybe VS could do some work to re-energise PE a bit. It is a superiour product to most, if not all, other "Enhanced Ecomony" services - how many have a seperate check-in desk and glass of bubbly?

Four immediate ideas that come to mind that I think they could do that would improve it are as follows:

* Printed menu's to welcome you aboard as a valued Premium Traveller
* Offer Priority Pass Lounge access to Full Fare PE pax, otherwise offer to book a Priority Pass Lounge for £10 / £15 a person if booking direct with Virgin.
* Look at the ameniety kit, not nessecerily change its contents but maybe package it slightly better to add to the experience

And of course the fourth is marketing! Jazz it up a bit - make it so that when you decide to book you feel you are booking something a bit more special then just some extra leg-room, seperate VS from the others and make sure people understand.

Foz xx

* Printed menu's to welcome you aboard as a valued Premium Traveller
* Offer Priority Pass Lounge access to Full Fare PE pax, otherwise offer to book a Priority Pass Lounge for £10 / £15 a person if booking direct with Virgin.
* Look at the ameniety kit, not nessecerily change its contents but maybe package it slightly better to add to the experience

Love the ideas fozzyo, wish i`d thought of them.

They don`t really add any extra cost to the airline but they do give the impression of being "special"

Well done