Cut backs

Ok so I may get beaten with a rather large stick for posting this on here but....

Does anyone else think that the small cust backs and reductons here and there have overall reduced the value of the virgin brand?

I remember in 1999 in economy having a menu before the meal, miniture bottles of drinks and if you asked for a soft drink you got 2 cans.. and more than 1 drink service on a flight (I know you can ask for more now...)

Do you think overall the Vrigin Brand had been diliuted on Virgin atlantic or is this just a sign of the times and we all should just put up with it!

[ChuckC]

Gavin,
No beatings with sticks for you. It's a fair question.

This is a topic we have discussed a great deal, particularly in the last year. Not speaking for anyone else, mind you, but I'd say there's been fair agreement that the accountants have had a bit of their way with some things better left untouched. Ask Preiffer how he feels about a certain pillow no longer found onboard (on second thought ...[}:)]] As you will see from the replies this thread may generate 'tis a matter of considerable personal opinion, however, just how much has been changed, and whether the changes have well served Virgin's overall brand.

Thanks, Gavin. Keep posting.

Hi Gavin

I've worked as crew with VA since 96. We have only ever done one drink service in Y, any extras would have been done at the purser/css's discretion.

Menu's were removed after 9/11 as the company desperately needed to save money and thank God they reacted the way they did in many areas of cost cutting as I still have a job I love. The market has not been kind to airlines in recent years and all airlines have had to respond to circumstances they weren't anticipating. The recent hurricanes have aftected bookings to Florida and this year there has been a real downturn in loads.

Virgn is still a profitable airline unlike many of it's US counterparts. The Y product is maybe not a market innovator any more but is comparable to all other long haul scheduled airlines that I have flown with in recent years BA/SQ/EK. Many of our customers comment that they would do more business with Virgin if we had a better route network but we cannot consider expansion if we are not making money. Fortunately we are growing and profitable.

For someone that hasn't flown with VA for six years I would imagine that all the changes are visisble but the company has tried to remove the products that were not really instrumental to the enjoyment of your flight. Please just ask if you want extra drinks, it really is no problem. Incidentally we only ever gave out one can of soda as well but if someone is nice or with children I always give two.

As you will all know, my soap box is the tiny wine glasses VS uses - the little 33cl bottles seem a much better idea to me. Sometimes there are bottles available in the galley, but more often (in my experience) not. I have to say I do not like having to ask for extra booze. But as I say, that is my regular soap box, so I will not harp on anymore.

However the little things do not make the brand in my opinion. They do of course help to make an impression, but mostly they are what one might call "hygene factors" - for example, if the food is dire you don't half remember it. But whether the food is fine or exceptional, it makes is pretty unmemorable; so why strive for excelent on an economy product - VS always seem to get these areas OK, but not better, and that is just fine. For me it is the people that really make the difference on the brand. Thinking back to my most recent flight, the staff were, without exception, welcoming, friendly, fun, cheeky (at times, and I mean that in a positive way), funny, smiling, helpful, and kept the pax very well informed about the flight and the unfortunate problems we were having. To me this staff attitude is exactly what makes the VS brand so different to say the BA brand. The cusions, booze and so on do not make for a memorable flight for me.

[buns]

Gavin

To add the debate, no airline has been immune to "bean counting" in recent years.

To me it is the appraoch of the staff that can make or break a flight with me. I have to say, on balance, my expereince is VS Crew continue to provide a style of service that is a notch above the competition
(the quality of the food on the other hand............)

I can remember multiple drink runs on the LHR-LAX route in Y in 92 & 93 when I flew it every 3-4 months. Also the Baileys and Brandy offering in Y at that time.

There was a long gap before I flew Virgin again, almost ten years, and I perceived a degredation in the overall experience.

I wasnt complaining as I spent that year flying on Mates tickets so I was quite content considering the price I was paying.

The thing I cannot understand is that the removal of little things like a menu really cannot save that much money, yet does affect the customer experence overall. were these little cutbacks really about reducing costs after 9/11 or just the bean counters looking at ways to save money. I think im correct in saying that VS made a healthy profit last year. I must admit though I know nothing about running an airline!

I still think that virgin are a fantastic airline, and if I was taking my first flight with them this week I would probably rave and tell my friends how impresed I was with them, But in comparing them from a few years ago to now there is quite a difference.

[fozzyo]

Also the Baileys and Brandy offering in Y at that time.

I think I have read in some Trip Reports that they have now returned.

the removal of little things like a menu really cannot save that much money, yet does affect the customer experence overall.

Yeah, agree with you on both points. The thing with menu's is the costs involved - design, printing, distribution, disposal of as waste. And perhaps the thing that has affected the airlines most in the recent year - weight. Several hundred menu's will add up, on one flight doesn't seem like much. Multiply that cost by the number of flights VS do a day.

And of course that applies to any of the extra's - while the Y (and J) amenity kit's have reduced in size and content i think it is great that VS have kept them. I'm sure cutting them or really minimising them in Y would save them a lot of money. But it is a great contributor to the Virgin experience.

Mat xxx

First it would be obvious that cutting the menus would not save anything but then we must remember that printing houses do not give printed menus for free. When you have several flights every day and you need quite amount of menus in each of them. Then we add passengers who think that menu is quite cool and take it with them. Then we have an expense, which is not a small one.

With small steps you can save a lot. We have to remember that they could have taken something else out.

Of course I have not seen the old luxury and I am still going to experience my first VS flight. I have just been watching my usual airline to do the saving actions during the last two years and if VS has been just taking out certain pillows and menus then it is quite little. And it is acceptable to save the airline - compare to those poor airlines, which are currently suffering heavily in the US.

I would have thought that if I were paying, say £2-3k for a UC flight from LGW-LAS for example, and there are only 14 UC seats once a day here (?), surely the few pence it costs to print a menu or whatever won't exactly be hitting Virgin too hard? Even over a year that shouldn't make much difference.

Doesn't seem to much in the way of cash shortages for the LHR Clubhouse for example.......it seems you get a better deal whilst on the ground constantly eating, drinking, taking beauty treatments etc for 2-3 hours than in the air for 8-12 hours these days!

[Scrooge]

true Scott,but then again to get into UC your looking at 5 - 10 times as much as you pay in Y,hence there is room in the fares for stuff like the club house etc,bringing UC into this little thread may be taking it OT as there is a whole other debate that could be had on the cost cutting in the UC cabin.

The VS Y product is still pretty good when compared to other airlines,sure there have been cutbacks such as those listed here,but in all honesty the menu's in Y were kind of a joke,yes they looked nice,yes they were worded nice,but when it came down to it it was still an airline Y meal.

[Nottingham Nick]

Originally posted by xenole
I would have thought that if I were paying, say £2-3k for a UC flight from LGW-LAS for example, and there are only 14 UC seats once a day here (?), surely the few pence it costs to print a menu or whatever won't exactly be hitting Virgin too hard? Even over a year that shouldn't make much difference.

It is only Y and W that have had the where the menu has gone, they are still there in UC.

I don't want to be the one to defend the beancounters, but it is hard to understate the effect that Sept 11th had (and is still having) on a whole host of industries, not least the airlines.

There were a raft of cost cutting measures introduced (including cancelling routes)- supposedly to pay for low passenger numbers in the immediate aftermath, the extra security and the uncertainty of the future.

It seems that, like oil prices rises, we soon see the bad side when times are hard - but don't see as many benefits during boom times. I am glad that VS are still profitable and are looking to the future. I just hope they manage to strike that difficult balance, and don't cut back too far so that they lose custom.

Nick

You have got that bang on, Nick.

If VS continue to cut back (a la menus, miniature drinks and curtailment of drinks services) then I for one think there is a distinct possibility that pax might be liable to transfer to one of the cheaper (maybe charter) operators. There does not seem to be too much difference in the seat pitch, prices on the whole work out cheaper and, unless the VS crews maintain their unique attitude, who could blame pax who opt to transfer[:(]?

While menus are a nice touch, it can dissappoint passengers if the option of their choice is not available (i.e. run out). I dont think it adds to the overall enjoyment of passengers travel necessarily. Kids (and even adults) make paper aeroplanes use it drawing paper, etc.

If you would like a large measure, then you are free to ask. You are also free to buzz for a drink or wander up to the galley in order to stretch your feet at the same time. There is certainly no alcohol rationing on board as far as I am aware. Getting on my soap box, I do have concerns when an airlines dish out too much alcohol to passengers who are not use to drinking at altitude as there is more opportunity for air-rage or rowdy passengers.

I do miss building up my collection of little ducks that came with the tooth-brushes but then thats another VS promotion gimmick (and you never got the ducks when travelling in UC anyway - bummer)

Ultimately, two things matter - seating space ( Y [n] PE [y], UCS [^] ) and crew service. Personally, I would regard food as important as do quite a few people on this board but I am not sure if everyone is as fussy is us.

Ultimately, all airlines are cutting down and VS is no different.

[Scrooge]

I can see this thread getting into a VS Y v Charter Y or even W.

FWIW the charter airlines have raised their standards over the last couple of years on the longhaul routes and many now offer more legroom than VS.

As can be seen by the trip reports here and here

you can see that there are options other than BA/VS that offer a good W product for a price equal to or less than the price of a VS/BA Y ticket.

Of course you are giving up the FF miles that can give you the free flights or upgrades (when you can get them) plus other perks.

In the end it comes down to what the airline thinks it can offer and still keep it's pax happy enough to fly them again.

As BA learnt from VS back in the 80's,if you treat your pax badly there areplenty of other airlines that would love to have them,just hope VS managment is able to remember the lessons they taught BA.

jetwet1:

[y][^]

[fozzyo]

Virgin are investing in their Y and W products at the moment as has been reported here - bigger seat pitch in Y on the 340-600's and new style seating. So while the menu's went a long time ago, the rubber duckies, and the minatures you can hoad all had to go the way down the Emergency Exit. But that was most probably required - more then we would have liked. But the result is that we still have our fave airline to fly. They have made a significant investment in their premium product and are now moving their attention down to where most of us fly. [^]

Mat xxx

Here's an idea for all you LHR users (OK they'll have to avoid using it on the steam driven LGW routes) but why not save money on printing menus in UC and give the PE + Y people a 'menu' as a screen on v-port???

Originally posted by ade99
Here's an idea for all you LHR users (OK they'll have to avoid using it on the steam driven LGW routes) but why not save money on printing menus in UC and give the PE + Y people a 'menu' as a screen on v-port???

Nice idea, but unfortunately the A343s won't ever get V-Port and are still around and operating some LHR routes (plus there is still a non V-Port 744 at LHR). And of course having a menu to peruse and plan one's dining ought to be a fundamental part of the UCS experience. Mind you, with the current state of J food perhaps we should be disabusing ourselves of this notion [:(].

BC

Gavin,

With regards to menus in Y, the company saved tens of thousands by removing these. Ultimately saved a couple of jobs when times were hard. As I think Nick said, don't underestimate the effect 9/11 had on us. There was a period of time when it looked highly unlikely we would survive much longer, we did thankfully but the company are eager to prevent that scenario again and cut backs sadly are vital in todays climate.

The Bailieys and Brandy is offered in Premium, on request in Y.

Our first 600 I believe is flying now with increased seat pitch in Y.

The crew still in my opinion are fantastic! However I am biased

[fozzyo]

The Bailieys and Brandy is offered in Premium, on request in Y.

I quite like that, adds value to PE through personal service, but the option is available to Y. Thats the kind of differences I would expect in PE, the personal attention.

Thanks for clarifying that southernbelle, and your right crews are fantastic

Originally posted by fozzyo

The Bailieys and Brandy is offered in Premium, on request in Y.

Thanks for clarifying that southernbelle, and your right crews are fantastic
[/quote
Sometimes yes! Sometimes not!

In my opinion Menus in Y are no great loss, most of the you spen time handing out 300 menus and then when you asked the customer what the wanted to eat they said 'what have you got???' [y][y]

In fact even in Upper Class you asked customers what they want and they ask the same questions!!

The Upper Class wines are also listed but customers still ask what wines do we have!!!

It really is amazing doing our job! You serve hundreds of people every month and its crazy what you see.

My favourite is watching the people open the toilet door by pulling the ash tray open!!! [V][y][V][i][i]

Cathay Pacific dont offer menus and they also use large bottles of wine for Economy, on my recent flight only one drinks round was done in Y to HKG and they still get voted best airline!

This reminds me of the story of AA saving $2m a year by serving 2 olives on the salads in First class instead of 3 olives - or something along those lines.

Originally posted by declansmith


In fact even in Upper Class you asked customers what they want and they ask the same questions!!

that's because Declan, when you ask for a wine off the list, you are told "sorry its not been loaded" or "We don't have the fruit to make a belini" (both happened to me on my last two trips):D:D:D:D