Clubhouse V Touch

[mcmbenjamin]

What did you book Chuck?

[ChuckC]

Originally posted by mcmbenjamin
What did you book Chuck?

I requested -- not yet booked -- a "Rhinestone Cowboy" for either 9 or 930 am. If I don't have an e-mail in the morning I'll give them a quick call.

Chuck-

[HighFlyer]

Good stuff Chuck! Dont forget to bag yourself a Floyd at the Cowshed

[RichardMannion]

That is if they have any left, some young guy has been in there recently buying up stock...

There were a couple of lone stragglers spotted in Revivals though...


Thanks,
Richard

[Decker]

Originally posted by RichardMannion
Am I meant to send the bill back and tell them to drop it to 10% if the service has been crap?

Well, simply -Yes!

But it's unusual to get crap service in the US. As most waitrons aren't paid stunningly well (see here).

A Tip remains discretionary. If service truly is bad then tip accordingly. We tend to tip in the US on the scale

20% - No complaints about service - better than average
15% - Service OK but long waits
10% - Surly service but we got what we ordered

Whilst it isn't my fault that they need the tips to survive that doesn't excuse me from social responsibility. I have chosen to eat at an establishment where I know what the implied etiquette is. I CAN ignore that etiquette but I can also remain seated on crowded tubes whilst pregnant women are standing.

I'm reminded of a meal in an expensive restaurant on the West Coast some 15 years ago when I was confused by the presence of a saucer of olive oil with some roasted garlic cloves...

"Could I get some butter please?"

"Why certainly sir but don't you like our garlic offering?"

"Well - truthfully - I have no clue what to do with it"...

Polite explanation followed...

"Thanks for that - at this class of establishment at home, if I'd asked the waiter that they'd have sneered at me"

Waitron recoils as if slapped

"But sir, do they then expect you to tip them after they're treated you like that? I can't imagine that - I rely on tips to get by so why would I choose to disrespect the person I expect to tip me?"

[RichardMannion]

Thanks for that Decker!

That is an interesting chart for sure. When you look at the ~$7/hour average, that is in line with our UK minimums but I would be very hard pushed to think of a time when I have had service that warranted a 20% tip. But then I suppose we don't have the expense of healthcare that US people have (in the grand scheme of things).

Not bad work for the waiters that serve the big tables then, like the one that served our party of 16 and bagged himself $500 for 2 hours work.

Thanks,
Richard

[Decker]

I must admit I do ponder whether I ought to include wine in that sometimes - having just dropped a £100+ tip for a meal for 4 last week at Gordon Ramsay's. Hasten to add that was at the "suggested" 12.5%. My further take is (as an aside) is that is establishments INSIST on adding a "discretionary" charge this is ALL they get.

I have mixed feelings on this issue. All too often I really feel that the job that has been done only warrants the minimum wage, and if we are eating in the UK, well that is what they got. Sorry to be harsh, but to deliver acceptable service really is not rocket science, does not require much dedicated training nor years of dedicated experience. So why should one need to pay more than the minium wage? In an economy that has good employee protection, I really believe that service must be exceptional to justify tipping (which I generally believe it is in the CH BTW which is why I tip).

When abroad the rules are different. As Decker says, quite often staff are dependant on tipping. Nor would I want to leave behind the impression that Brits are tight wads. So generally I go with the local customs.

I have to say that if there is a surcharge then there will never, but never, be a tip from me. And Richard is quite right to imply that it takes exceptional courage to fight a surcharge. Apart from anything else you are probably going to spoil an already bad evening the evening still further. I did argue the toss on a surcharge once, and I have to say that far from wanting to know what my problem was, I was merely told it was a contractual charge and to pay up and get out. Eventually the police were called. Needless to say they indicated their displeasure at being called to an angry but very calm, non-violent customer. However I ended up paying the charge and going away very angry indeed - I slept not a wink that night.

[HighFlyer]

Poor Sailor

The whole thing reminds me of the beginning scene in Reservoir Dogs and Mr White's anti-tipping policy

Originally posted by sailor99
However I ended up paying the charge and going away very angry indeed - I slept not a wink that night.

Yes, indeed. Anger is a powerful emotion, and it is usual that the negative affects on your state of mind actually exceed the negativity of the causative factor. That is, getting angry about something like this makes you feel worse than just accepting it, and forgetting about it.

Things like these obligatory surcharges, and other social conventions that dictate a behaviour that you feel uncomfortable with, whilst they would make good themes for episodes of "Curb Your Enthusiasm" with Larry David, they generate more disharmony when you object and get angry, than if you accept them.

So should we just accept unreasonable requests, with a British stiff upper lip? Definitely not. But equally, in the 'heat of the moment', perhaps it is better to retain a calm affect, and obtain suitable closure at a later date, in some way. Not sure how to deal with the unexpectedly large bill in a restaurant or similar, but if it's a relatively small amount of money, is that worth your piece of mind and a night's sleep? It may be unfair but a lot of things are unfair, and it is a measure of our own state of mind how we deal with such events, and how we manage to preserve our state of mind.

[fozzyo]

Originally posted by preiffer
Agreed - but when (in London) it's easy for a guy to spend £30 on a VERY simply haircut, a £5 tip for a free one doesn't sound like bad value to me...

You obviously have been to visit the lovely Aussie girls at Mr Tops. They're fab and I always give them a tip. I'm not a big tipper over here, all too often the service doesn't warrant it. There are a few places I regularly do though.

When in the US I am generally a fairly generous tipper because I get the service and smiles that I want that warrant it. I never think twice about tipping in the bars, better quality drinks, free refills on the sodas, and if I'm lucky they flirt outrageously.

Not tipped at the CH before, not something that has crossed my mind.

Mat xxx

[RichardMannion]

Originally posted by Decker
My further take is (as an aside) is that is establishments INSIST on adding a "discretionary" charge this is ALL they get.

Oh absolutely.

A couple of how not to do it for merchants benefits:-

a) I receive a bill with a 15% discretionary charge, but think the service was only worth 10% tip. Much moaning, and then merchant decides to try and charge me 5% extra because I am using AmEx. Explain they are in violation of merchants agreement with AmEx to do so and further moaning, so I do them a favour and reduce the tip to 0% and gently remind them of UK law that that it is perfectly acceptable to pay only what you think the meal was worth (as long as it is greater than 1p). Very frustrated merchant, I did this out of view of my party though as Sailor mentioned it can sometimes make a bad night even worse.

b) Bill recieved in a US restaurant, and a 15% tip was left. Statement checked a few days later and merchant has put through their own amount with tip calculated at 20%. I faxed over my recipt to HQ in Brighton as proof and they take the dispute up with merchant and subsequently cancel the entire transaction.

Thanks,
Richard

[Decker]

Ooh like both. On the first are you saying that part of their merchant agreement is that they CAN'T levy a credit card surcharge - across board?

[RichardMannion]

Merchants cannot discriminate against a customer if they wish to use AmEx as a form of payment by charging a higher fee than any other equivalent form of payment - so if a 2.5% credit card surcharge is applied to all cards, then it is fine, but they cannot charge VISA 2.5% and AmEx 5%. The Card Suppression team at AmEx are there to go and take up the issue with the merchant if you are ever in this postion. Just like the places that display the AmEx logo but refuse to take AmEx as payment or ask you to pay by another means instead (a la car dealers) - again the suppresion team is there to deal with this. By displaying the AmEx logo on their door or premises, they are agreeing to the acceptance of all the merchant terms outlined by AmEx.

In my instance I deliberately asked the foolsih merchant 'Are you charging me this 5% just because I am using an AmEx?

Thanks,
Richard

Merchants cant discriminate against Amex. Period. The merchant agreement I have with Amex makes this very clear - if Im not mistaken Im not actually allowed to surcharge AT ALL (will check in this in morning) - However, merchants certainly can give no less preference to it as a payment method (in general the %age Amex take is slightly higher & it takes a few days longer for funds to reach bank account - many merchants want to accept it because of revenue potential, but dont want it on smaller transactions. IMO this is small-minded thought - Stores I can use my Amex in, I use more often than those I cant... even if it is lower-transaction amounts) - i.e.
Cust. "what types of cards do you take" ...
Merchant "Visa, Mastercard, Switch, Solo" ...
Cust. "What about Amex" ...
Merchant "Oh, we take that too..."
Amex terms of agreement/acceptance forbid above - you have to give no less that equal status to it as an acceptance method.
As for surcharging - there is still a loophole in UK laws that allows more-unscrupulous merchants (and Ikea!?!?!) to impose this (whilst the US takes a stronger stance against it - pretty certain its not allowed at all, but not 100% sure) - Amex. essentially operate as a US company with a UK office & the customer-support Ive had from them as a card holder is fantastic. Never had the need to phone regards surcharge - if I encounter any merchant imposing a surcharge for card acceptance, I tend to not shop there at all.

Originally posted by RichardMannion
The Card Suppression team at AmEx are there to go and take up the issue with the merchant if you are ever in this postion. Just like the places that display the AmEx logo but refuse to take AmEx as payment or ask you to pay by another means instead (a la car dealers) - again the suppresion team is there to deal with this. By displaying the AmEx logo on their door or premises, they are agreeing to the acceptance of all the merchant terms outlined by AmEx.

In my instance I deliberately asked the foolsih merchant 'Are you charging me this 5% just because I am using an AmEx?

Thanks,
Richard

Is this instant action - IOW, can you call them when at the retailer and have the riot act read, or is it a matter of complaining after the event and waiting?