Differentiated service

Right, I've probably posted this in the wrong area but I'm sure if I have some helpful Mod will move it .

I've noticed a number of posts recently regarding differentiated services depending on Class and Op-Ups etc (i.e. the IFBT/Cowshed and also the DVD Player went OT a little).

I think that service should most certainly be different between Econ, PE and UC cabins but the difference of service between individual classes is an interesting subject.

What if you are first time UC flyer (normally fly BA CW) and you were given an op-up and then notice that you get a lower class of service, you will more than likely not want to travel VS again.

However I remember a number of years (at least 6) ago getting an upgrade from Econ to UC. I didn't know why, at check-in I was 4 hours early, but I got a wink from the check-in lady and my trip got better from there. Since then I will always try VS first even if its more expensive. I was given a massage on that flight. It was the best flight I had ever had [y]

Perhaps this was before they introduced priority at the bottom of the list for op-ups, had I not received my massage it would not have been quite as amazing.

So I think that a level playing field is important as Op-ups can be a good marketing tool.

I also am interested in what information the CC have on their lists. For each PAX I assume they know the class. Do they differentiate for Op-ups and PAX that have upgraded with miles / cash?

I do have experience of being Op-upped in BA to CW last year. I was treated very differently to other PAX (as I was moved up during flight). This has put me off BA for life in CW [V]

Sorry for long winded msg but there are some interesting things to consider as CC [?]

To me its a question of management of expectations. OpUps at the moment don't get CH access for example, which I think is fine as the operational drive was to free up seats at the back of the bus. So long as the Opup understands this when they are offered the move forward then all is well IMHO.

The other side is to maintain the correct ambience in the cabin. For this reason I would not support serving Y meals to opus for example. Doing so would change the "feel" of the UC cabin (as well as being a little bit embarrassing for the opupee).

I had an opup coming back from PVG. I was delighted (to say the least). I also did not expect the IFBT to see me, and indeed when she came round I was at pains to point out that I was on an opup, and she should see the paying punters first. Nevertheless I got a treatment. But the point was that I was not expecting it. If people's expectations are managed, then I don't think others would either.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. It is about expectations. So if you upgrade with miles, is this known by the CC or do they view you as a normal J?

[RichardMannion]

Hi,

That is an intersting viewpoint, but I like the way you have constructed the message and positioned it.

First of all, can't remember the last time I got a massage when I flew BA (even in First) [:p]

Are you trying to say that if a person gets op-upped, but doesn't get a treatment onboard they will feel disillusioned?

The odds of someone who doesn't normally fly VS getting an op-up to Upper are very remote, for a number of factors.

Virgin's strategy is to keep the premium cabins premium, and not op-up unless they really have to. And then top of the list for op-up will be those with loyalty so Gold, then Silver and that pretty much covers off the required upgrades. Last week there were over 25 Gold and Silvers in Upper Class alone on my flight to LHR.

CC are furnished with details on whom is whom, what status they have, if they are a confirmed upgrade (mileage/paid/authorised), if they are on a revenue Upper ticket, if they were an op-up and whether they are staff. There is another company tracking system for special notes to alert for certain customers and scenarios.

Of course there will be times when a IFBT cannot get round all customers and these will be handled in the usual way, and there is the priority card to help make up for this.

I know people that have bought Upper tickets for the first time, or have used miles to upgrade and have raved about the product (as its more than just the IFBT), and I asked if htye managed to get a treatment and they said no that they got a card as the flight was full and they weren't disillusioned.

Don't get me wrong, I love the IFBT service but its only 10 minutes of the whole Upper experience and I don't feel disheartened if I don't get a treatment, especially if I haven't paid for an Upper ticket.

You have to put it in another perspective, think of the passengers that have bought a full fare J ticket, how do you think they were to feel if a op-up were to get a treatment in priority to them? Its just like the fact that people that are op-upped to Upper don't get access to the CH facilities, and TBH why should they?

Virgin aim to get a consistent experience for each cabin for every flight, hence why they have policies but from time to time there are fluctuations. I have flown in all classes on VS many times and there are always differences in flight, the route itself can determine some aspects (the ex-LGW routes have no IFBT or Revivals for instance) but the core service is pretty much always the same, and to be fair my mood can determine the experience onboard. The experience on the ground can determien how much I enjoy my travel experience, as travelling for me is about the end to end experience. Upper Class is looked at within VS as an E2E experience, it is not just the flight that counts.

All passengers should get the same core experience, though some will be perceived to be getting better treatment but then there may be reasons why. I travelled in Economy quite a bit a few years ago as a Gold, and I was always looked after to make sure I was okay and the FSM would introduce themselves to me and to other passengers I was seen to be getting better treatment, but for me I was recognised as a loyal customer.


Hope this helps,
Richard

The FSM knows EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERYONE on the flight from whether you've been op-up'd to what you had for breakfast.

[preiffer]

Interesting to see what you'd do - when the pressure's on...

To be fair, if i was op up'ed, I wouldnt expect the same service as someone who payed full fare.
I would be happy enough with the seat myself, then again, Ive never really found a fault with the economy cabin service.
People who get op up'ed and expect a top service level have to learn that in life, you have to pay for things if you want it.

[RichardMannion]

And before I forget, who remembers the old 'upgrade' zone on the MCO route - the B zone. J2000 seat but with PE service. There your op-ups went, and yes some people did have the audacity to complain that they weren't getting the full Upper service! And as for that lawsuit....

Thanks,
Richard

Good response Richard.

There is a mixture of personal and also what-if type reasoning in my original response.

I realise that the IFBT is only a small piece of the overall service but my first flight with VS was this one and I don't know how but I got Op-Uped all the way from econ to UC (perhaps there wasn't a PE cabin then!).

I agree with most posters in that J's should get priority if things have to be rationed as they have paid far more than anyone else to be on that plane. I would be happy to get the chicken instead of the steak!

Its a bit of a hornets nest isn't it, you want to reward loyalty and protect multiple flyers but you also want to look after J's even if its their first flight.

Luckily I don't make the rules.

For me, I hope to upgrade to UC on my next flight using miles. I would like to get a massage as it was great, but if I don't I won't be disallusioned, I'll just probably understand a bit more about how they decide things.

Thanks all for helping me understand how airlines work. I thought Telecoms was complex!:D

Originally posted by RichardMannion
And before I forget, who remembers the old 'upgrade' zone on the MCO route - the B zone. J2000 seat but with PE service. There your op-ups went, and yes some people did have the audacity to complain that they weren't getting the full Upper service! And as for that lawsuit....

Thanks,
Richard

Ah my 1st upgrade

Did the trick as I've paid for 2 UC's since

[buns]

Slimey

Thanks for raising a most interesting debate.

Those times I have been op-up'd I have been extremely grateful and I cannot recall every receiving a lesser service.

The only exception was the time (prior to being aware of V-flyer)where I was told prior to boarding the aircraft, I had been upgraded[y] only to find I was in the "B" zone with PE Service. As Richard poins out, this is all about expectations and as you can imagine I was extremely disappointed[:(!]

Fortunately those days are now past

[honey lamb]

When we were op-upped it was on board the aircraft so we had no expectations and everything was a delight and a bonus. The load in UC was light so we both had massages but to be honest I never expected them and really believed I would be treated as a lesser being. We weren't. We were thoroughly pampered but that created its own problems. There was no going back! We had caught UCitis! [:0]

[buns]

originally posted by Honey Lamb
There was no going back! We had caught UCitis!

I know the feeling;);) Pretty good bait VS must use[:w][:w]

I can't speak for Virgin as the only times I have flown with them I have been in UC anyway! However, EL AL (with whom I fly a great deal) clearly see OpUps as a marketing tool. Once a frequent flyer has been OpUpped to business class they are far more likely to actually pay for it in the future. Likewise from business to first class. So OpUps get everything a paying passenger would get, as of the moment they are upgraded (with the exception of the limo service for first class, which only goes to full fare first anyway). So, if you get upgraded by reservations before you get to the airport, or at the checkin, your luggage will get priority labels and you will get the lounge. If you get upgraded when you get to the gate you will obviously have missed the lounge.

One of the crew told me when I was recently upgraded to first that although they all knew who were upgraded and who were paying, the company policy was that they were not allowed to differentiate between them even to the slightest degree. I am absolutely convinced that this is because the company sees upgrades as a marketing tool.

Indeed, this has actually worked on me, as ever since my first upgrade to first class a couple of years ago, I have used my frequent flyer points to upgrade from business on a number of occasions. Beforehand I would never have even dreamed of considering going first class! I would apply the same reasoning to my situation a number of years ago with respect to economy versus business class, although here there is a clear difference between a very uncomfortable journey and a comfortable journey, whereas from business to first we are talking about comparing a comfortable journey into a luxurious one! For me that difference is expressed in only using points for business to first, whereas I am willing to pay for business class over economy.

I was first opped up from Econ to Business on VS on LAX to LHR, this was way back in 92 I think.

I don't remember receiving the same level of service as all the fare-paying pax.

I actually dont remember too much at all....somebody, mentioning no names, took copius advantage of the beverage service.

What I do remember is having a nasty hangover getting from LHR to the City that morning stinking of Johnny Walker. Not pleasant.

Originally posted by RichardMannion
And before I forget, who remembers the old 'upgrade' zone on the MCO route - the B zone. J2000 seat but with PE service. There your op-ups went, and yes some people did have the audacity to complain that they weren't getting the full Upper service! And as for that lawsuit....

Thanks,
Richard

I don't remember the MCO route ever having J2000 seats. I remember a B zone 'upgrade' area but these where the 'Alitalia' style seats.

Mind you I don't remember much about VS aircraft prior to 2000/1, was it before this time?

Paul

The FSM knows EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERYONE on the flight from whether you've been op-up'd to what you had for breakfast.

Oy Lipstick--this makes me a bit nervous (coming from the land of wiretaps). Care to elaborate? I' m always a bit nervous when standing in front of that check-in computer...what if the agent is reading:
"Really annoying passenger. Spills things. Lost right shoe on VS 07 21 March 1997 and insisted on crawling to look under every seat in cabin section to retrieve it. Asks for sleep suit on day flights. Prefers olives to nuts, cheese to pudding and pretends to know California wines. Has little patience with loud people or gigglers. CODE BLUE: Offer BA vouchers in any case requiring compensation.


RR

[RichardMannion]

Originally posted by p17blo

Originally posted by RichardMannion
And before I forget, who remembers the old 'upgrade' zone on the MCO route - the B zone. J2000 seat but with PE service. There your op-ups went, and yes some people did have the audacity to complain that they weren't getting the full Upper service! And as for that lawsuit....

Thanks,
Richard

I don't remember the MCO route ever having J2000 seats. I remember a B zone 'upgrade' area but these where the 'Alitalia' style seats.

Mind you I don't remember much about VS aircraft prior to 2000/1, was it before this time?

Paul

Well spotted,, that is my mistake - last time I flew to MCO it was in J2000, as one of the LHR 400's was assisting on the routes that season (Ruby Tuesday if I recall).

Thanks,
Richard

Great topic, could I add a slight twist to it please!

If we are dicsussing differentials of service on op-ups what is everyone's perception of sevice levels to be expected on those horrible days when a downgrade actually happens. If you are UC in a PE cabin or PE in Y, would you exepct to be treated in any different way to the rest of the passengers in your cabin?

I have only been in this situation once with VS and they didn't make a very good job of it in my opinion.

Thoughts anyone?

Graham

If I was downgraded I wouldn't expect any UC product in PE, or PE in Y. I think that would be both embarrasing for me and the other PAX around me.
I would though expect a lot of miles and the difference in ticket cost refunded.
I would also like to think that they would downgrade any non FC members before they got to me.

Dean

Can't fault your logic there wolves, to which I would add that I hope the would ask for voluntary downgrades first. For an UC to PE downgrade I think I would be looking for 40,000 miles to give me a upgrade next flight, the ticket price diff TO A DISCOUNTED PE TICKET, and a very clear apology on the day followed up with the same in writing. I would also hope that they would consider alternative flights, poss with another carrier, but this may be a little unrealistic. Either way, as I am sure you gather, I would take a very dim view of the downgrade.

Luckily downgrades are far from common. We have only had 1 TR concerning a downgrade that I know of. Unfortunately the situation did not appear to go smoothly for the person in that case.

The only time I've known it was on a flight I was somehow hoping (rather foolishly) expecting an upgrade. They had to swap a 346 with a 343 on the HGK flight. Lots of rather disheveled UC PAX were sitting in PE with me. They all seems fairly lassez faire about the situation though.

Dean

While I realise this is mainly about UC and upgrades - and no doubt someone will kindly move me if I'm in the wrong place - it strikes me that passengers in PE get a bit of a rough deal at times. Have twice experience this, both times on the lower deck of PE. Barely separated by a flimsy curtain, we both felt as if we were the poor relations of PE. Yeah, I know you could argue that UC and PE are also similarly separated, but the feeling of differentiation is much more more with the PE/E split. Both times, we felt that paying the difference wasn't really worth the benefit we got. I have to add that it also feels like it's time to star overhauling the PE experience in general.

OK, so shoot me down in flames now.....[|)]

No flame guns here CSW.
This has come up before. Lots of people agree with your POV. THere were also lots who pointed to the benefits of PE other than differentiation, such as leg room. For me, the load factors in PE tell the ultimate story - the product appears pretty popular.

Agree, the leg room is welcome, but I can't really think of any other reasons! I also realise it's popular - too popular maybe - and for that reason alone, Virgin is unlikely to make any changes anytime soon. Pity though - a couple of times ago, we flew with BA (shock, horror, but what's a person to do if Virgin doesn't fly there? I know, I know, go somehere they DO fly!) We got upgraded on both the out and inbound flights to Club World. They have 4 classes of flights, I know, so this wasn't 1st. But - I have to admit, somewhat reluctantly, that if you were to compare that class with PE, then PE doesn't come out well.

Flying UC is great, I can't deny that, but I'm sadly not in the position to do so other than occasionally. Regardless though, it would be nice to bet a little more in PE......