How come Virgin and all other airlines from heathrow can open up new routes to the US increasing the nuber of times they do across but BMI cant secure slots to america? im just confused at why BMI are left out.
It's due to a treaty of sorts created years ago called the Bermuda II. Basically it only allows 2 American and 2 British airlines to operate routes from USA to LHR (Now consists of UA, AA, BA, and VS). Not sure why it was made, but I'm sure someone else will enlighten you further!
that would explain why delta have to fly to gatwick. thanks that clears things up a little. but if anyone else konws anything please share.
Was having a look around for more info on Bermuda II. WIthout getting too much into it (and the only info being from 4-year old forum postings) basically :
"Bermuda II allows only 29 gateways into London, and only 12 of them into Heathrow."
"Bermuda II allows only 29 gateways into London, and only 12 of them into Heathrow."
Bermuda II is what restricts BD from operating transatlantic services from LHR- it also restricts the likes of DL, US, CO and NW. It was created in 1977. Replacing Bermuda I.
The main points are as follows:
1.Only four airlines are allowed to operate transatlantic flights from Heathrow. The two British carriers are currently British Airways and Virgin Atlantic. The American carriers are American Airlines and United Airlines (rights purchased from TWA and Pan Am respectively).
2. American and British regulatory authorities must approve airline's pricing.
3. Each country has the right to refuse to permit operations of a carrier it is not satisfied with (particularly with regard to ownership or control).
4. Restrictive list of U.S. cities U.S. carriers can serve from London airports. Currently JFK, IAD, ORD, SFO, BOS, LAX and MIA.
5. Restrictive list of U.S. cities UK carriers can serve from London airports. Currently IAD, ORD, SEA, LAX, SFO, MIA, BOS, JFK and EWR
6. Further, of the cities that apply, only some of these may be served from Heathrow. (i.e not Gatwick) All except EWR
7. As all routes are currently taken, for a carrier to start a new service to a new U.S. city from London they must drop another route.
US and UK governments have been working to get rid of BII but there is major problems with what each government wants. Currently the US government want to see the likes of DL, CO, US and NW given the right to fly into LHR- of course this is made worse by the slot issue. The UK government want BD to be granted services but more importantly want UK airlines to be able to operate domestic services in the US. Currently the likes of SQ, JL and QF are allowed to operate services domestically but UK carriers arent. SO they want VS to be able to operate LHR-JFK-IAH for exmaple.
Simular agreements between nations exist all over the world. The Irish enforce that all carriers operating transatlantic services must operate to both DUB and SNN.
The main points are as follows:
1.Only four airlines are allowed to operate transatlantic flights from Heathrow. The two British carriers are currently British Airways and Virgin Atlantic. The American carriers are American Airlines and United Airlines (rights purchased from TWA and Pan Am respectively).
2. American and British regulatory authorities must approve airline's pricing.
3. Each country has the right to refuse to permit operations of a carrier it is not satisfied with (particularly with regard to ownership or control).
4. Restrictive list of U.S. cities U.S. carriers can serve from London airports. Currently JFK, IAD, ORD, SFO, BOS, LAX and MIA.
5. Restrictive list of U.S. cities UK carriers can serve from London airports. Currently IAD, ORD, SEA, LAX, SFO, MIA, BOS, JFK and EWR
6. Further, of the cities that apply, only some of these may be served from Heathrow. (i.e not Gatwick) All except EWR
7. As all routes are currently taken, for a carrier to start a new service to a new U.S. city from London they must drop another route.
US and UK governments have been working to get rid of BII but there is major problems with what each government wants. Currently the US government want to see the likes of DL, CO, US and NW given the right to fly into LHR- of course this is made worse by the slot issue. The UK government want BD to be granted services but more importantly want UK airlines to be able to operate domestic services in the US. Currently the likes of SQ, JL and QF are allowed to operate services domestically but UK carriers arent. SO they want VS to be able to operate LHR-JFK-IAH for exmaple.
Simular agreements between nations exist all over the world. The Irish enforce that all carriers operating transatlantic services must operate to both DUB and SNN.
Other than CO at EWR (who codeshare with VS anyway) none of the other US carriers have main bases at places where VS fly to.
NW-Detroit (and LAX slightly)
US-Charlotte, Philadelphia
DL-Atlanta (JFK?)
CO-Newark, Houston and Cleveland.
I think the biggest threat, if they were to be more liberal with the rules, would be to BA.
Cheers,
VS045
NW-Detroit (and LAX slightly)
US-Charlotte, Philadelphia
DL-Atlanta (JFK?)
CO-Newark, Houston and Cleveland.
I think the biggest threat, if they were to be more liberal with the rules, would be to BA.
Cheers,
VS045
Originally posted by VS045
Other than CO at EWR (who codeshare with VS anyway) none of the other US carriers have main bases at places where VS fly to.
NW-Detroit (and LAX slightly)
US-Charlotte, Philadelphia
DL-Atlanta (JFK?)
CO-Newark, Houston and Cleveland.
I think the biggest threat, if they were to be more liberal with the rules, would be to BA.
Cheers,
VS045
Dont forget AA at LAX, MIA and JFK!
I think but I could be wrong that some talks were done about Bermuda II last year and as a result BA are allowed to operate PHX via ORD. But i could be very very wrong.
No the threat is equally as bad from the american carriers- a number of them, i believe, will be looking to partner carriers to give up or lease slots to them at LHR. It could very esaily work- we have seen it happen before- and with the latest deal between BD and QR i wouldnt be surprised if this sort of thing starts happening between American carriers. The only thing going for us is that the American carriers are in dire financial trouble.
No the threat is equally as bad from the american carriers- a number of them, i believe, will be looking to partner carriers to give up or lease slots to them at LHR. It could very esaily work- we have seen it happen before- and with the latest deal between BD and QR i wouldnt be surprised if this sort of thing starts happening between American carriers. The only thing going for us is that the American carriers are in dire financial trouble.
OK, if Bermuda II governs the US to London routes, what governs the routes from non-LHR/LGW airports to the US?
BMI run 2 or 3 flights to/from Las Vegas from Manchester at the moment but I wondered if there was any reason apart from financial, that prevents them running MANLAX flights?
BMI run 2 or 3 flights to/from Las Vegas from Manchester at the moment but I wondered if there was any reason apart from financial, that prevents them running MANLAX flights?
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